Free will Question

[Tyler35]

I asked something similar in another post, but didn’t want to overcrowd it since this technically is a different question.

I understand now that Calvinism is not a denomination but a belief system. So my question is, is the Calvinist belief system, the only Christian belief system that denies free will? If not, what are the other(s)?

 

[Tyler35]

I am emphatically NOT a Calvinist, but it isn't correct to say that Calvinism denies free will. The relationship between determinism and free will is explained pretty well here: https://www.apologeticscentral.org/post/calvinism-human-free-will-and-divine-sovereignty-explained. Calvinists are compatibilists - i.e., they believe that free will is compatible with determinism.

I am not a Calvinist either, nor am I attempting to talk poorly of them. My question is completely for knowledge sake.

Do you know of any Christian belief systems that deny free will then?

 

[friend of]

Eh, compatibilism in and of itself is a straight-up contradiction.

imo anyway

 

[zippy2006]

I am emphatically NOT a Calvinist, but it isn't correct to say that Calvinism denies free will. The relationship between determinism and free will is explained pretty well here: https://www.apologeticscentral.org/post/calvinism-human-free-will-and-divine-sovereignty-explained. Calvinists are compatibilists - i.e., they believe that free will is compatible with determinism.

Addressed most recently <here>. Calvinists do deny free will, for what we colloquially mean by "free will" is libertarian free will. Colloquially, free will is not understood to be compatible with determinism, and this is for obvious reasons. Your own source admits that Calvinists deny libertarian free will.

 

[Tyler35]

Addressed most recently <here>. Calvinists do deny free will, for what we colloquially mean by "free will" is libertarian free will. Colloquially, free will is not understood to be compatible with determinism, and this is for obvious reasons. Your own source admits that Calvinists deny

Eh, compatibilism in and of itself is a straight-up contradiction.

imo anyway

Eh, compatibilism in and of itself is a straight-up contradiction.

imo anyway

Do you believe in full liberation free will then?

 

[friend of]

Do you believe in full liberation free will then?

Yes.

 

[zippy2006]

Do you believe in full liberation free will then?

At minimum, libertarian free will means only that we can choose one thing or another, and that we have an ability to follow a different course of action than we did in fact choose. This is a prerequisite for moral responsibility, for someone who was unable to do differently cannot be punished or praised for what they did. This is also what it means for us to be created in the image of God, for this is the sort of freedom that God has.

 

[friend of]

This is also what it means for us to be created in the image of God, for this is the sort of freedom that God has.

Right. God has freedom and so do we, as we are made in His image. I tend to think our imagination is proof of our freewill in a sense.

 

[Blade]

No they do not deny free will yet I think we need to understand what someone means when they say free will. Not Good with words but.. Not sure why some get stuck here. We need to remember free will is not defined by one person. Sorry not how this works. There is only one true God the great I am and.. that's it. So any thought that is against, contrary to God... well we can do it but its only temporary. Everything out side of what God is where God is will all pass away. If one is not on Gods side so to speak you are with Satan for there is no middle ground...if you don't want God then you are of your Father the devil. We can do good things for the rest of your life and never sin yet in Gods eyes we are wicked evil and unrighteous. All of this right now is based on a lie. Everything out side of where God is...is dying because of sin.

So many thoughts and emotions are tainted by sin and we don't know it. Take all of this fallen natural away then lets talk for then we will truly see. We only see through this clouded glass so to speak. We think we see and understand. Like talking about some "other" preachers and we know can see their faults and sins yet ask Christ what He sees? "oh but do you know all the good they do for me". Please tell me after this what will you focus on? HAHA just because the GREAT I AM says something does not mean we will do it Is that free will? What Satan did and Adam and Eve listening to a lie will never can never happen again So my free will is to do the will of my Father.. haha classic saying yet I believe it and want to do that...

We can question God ... He said to me RUN one time. I thought "run? Why run I'm not scared". You know what He said after that? HAHA "when God tells you to do something you do not question it you just do it". To that I smiled and said "yes sir". He is GOD yet He is our dad...our Father no angel in all creation no other can call Him Father. No angel being in Heaven has Christ aka GOD in side them living. All this has just started.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I asked something similar in another post, but didn’t want to overcrowd it since this technically is a different question.

I understand now that Calvinism is not a denomination but a belief system. So my question is, is the Calvinist belief system, the only Christian belief system that denies free will? If not, what are the other(s)?

Lutherans aren't Calvinists, like at all, but there are some ideas Lutherans and Calvinists share in common, though sometimes only superficially. One of these is that both Calvinists and Lutherans deny the freedom of the will.

Lutherans believe that, on account of sin, the human will is also sinful--and thus not free. Specifically, a human being cannot, by their own strength and power, be righteous. We cannot even come to God and say "yes" to Him.

Lutherans, like Calvinists, also believe in Predestination. However, we believe in it in a very different way than Calvinists do.

Calvinism holds that God has predestined some for election and salvation, and (at least by implication) either has selected the rest for damnation or has otherwise simply passed them over. From this, then, Calvinism (at least Five-Point Calvinism) argues that Christ only died for the elect (Limited Atonement), that the elect when they hear the Gospel will believe (Irresistible Grace) and can never fall away (Perseverance of the Saints).

Lutherans, on the other hand, maintain that predestination applies only to election. And it has nothing to do with God, in the beginning, picking and choosing who will or will not be saved. But rather, it means that God has chosen you in Christ. How can you know this? Because God reveals it in Word and Sacrament. So you can know that you are predestined because you were baptized. Because you have heard the Gospel preached and you believe it. Because the words are spoken to you in the Sacrament of Absolution that your sins are forgiven on Christ's account. Election isn't secret, with only God knowing who is and isn't "really saved" or "truly elect". It is a public declaration through God's Means of Grace, for you, to you, that you are the object of God's love and affection in Christ. Christ, therefore, died for everyone (Universal Atonement), we can resist and reject the call of the Gospel (Resistible Grace), and if we turn away from faith in Christ, we make shipwreck of our faith, and can become apostate and lost. So instead, Lutherans teach that the Christian can have full and complete confidence of their salvation in Christ, not by looking at themselves, but looking instead at the external word and promises of God, by looking to what God says and does: Christ died for you, you are baptized, here is Christ's Supper where you eat His flesh and drink His blood, the words of Absolution declare you forgiven; thus we teach the "Assurance of the Saints".

I'm offering terms like Universal Atonement, Resistible Grace, and Assurance of the Saints specifically as counter-terminoloy to the language of Calvinism's TULIP. Lutheranism doesn't have its own version of TULIP, but for the sake of comparison and contrast, this has been done.

Calvinism:
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

Lutheranism's response to TULIP:
Total Inability (We are completely unable to be righteous and to come to God because of Original Sin)
Unconditional Election (God chooses us based entirely on His love and grace toward us in Christ, not because of anything worthy about us)
Universal Atonement (Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, for everyone, completely, no exceptions)
Resistible Grace (We can resist and reject God's grace and forgiveness)
Assurance of the Saints (We can have full confidence and assurance of salvation because of God's faithful promises in the Gospel)

So, yes, there are others that deny the freedom of the will. Lutherans. But our denial of free will simply means that we are unable, by the power of our will, to be righteous--our will is held in bondage and captivity to sin.

If by "free will" one means can one make their own choices, then Lutherans believe in free will. In fact, we make those choices all the time, even in regard to God, we have a life-long record of our choosing against God.

If by "free will" one means can one make a choice to be righteous and believe in Jesus Christ, then no, Lutherans don't believe in free will. Because, again, the fallen will actively chooses against God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tyler35]

Lutherans aren't Calvinists, like at all, but there are some ideas Lutherans and Calvinists share in common, though sometimes only superficially. One of these is that both Calvinists and Lutherans deny the freedom of the will.

Lutherans believe that, on account of sin, the human will is also sinful--and thus not free. Specifically, a human being cannot, by their own strength and power, be righteous. We cannot even come to God and say "yes" to Him.

Lutherans, like Calvinists, also believe in Predestination. However, we believe in it in a very different way than Calvinists do.

Calvinism holds that God has predestined some for election and salvation, and (at least by implication) either has selected the rest for damnation or has otherwise simply passed them over. From this, then, Calvinism (at least Five-Point Calvinism) argues that Christ only died for the elect (Limited Atonement), that the elect when they hear the Gospel will believe (Irresistible Grace) and can never fall away (Perseverance of the Saints).

Lutherans, on the other hand, maintain that predestination applies only to election. And it has nothing to do with God, in the beginning, picking and choosing who will or will not be saved. But rather, it means that God has chosen you in Christ. How can you know this? Because God reveals it in Word and Sacrament. So you can know that you are predestined because you were baptized. Because you have heard the Gospel preached and you believe it. Because the words are spoken to you in the Sacrament of Absolution that your sins are forgiven on Christ's account. Election isn't secret, with only God knowing who is and isn't "really saved" or "truly elect". It is a public declaration through God's Means of Grace, for you, to you, that you are the object of God's love and affection in Christ. Christ, therefore, died for everyone (Universal Atonement), we can resist and reject the call of the Gospel (Resistible Grace), and if we turn away from faith in Christ, we make shipwreck of our faith, and can become apostate and lost. So instead, Lutherans teach that the Christian can have full and complete confidence of their salvation in Christ, not by looking at themselves, but looking instead at the external word and promises of God, by looking to what God says and does: Christ died for you, you are baptized, here is Christ's Supper where you eat His flesh and drink His blood, the words of Absolution declare you forgiven; thus we teach the "Assurance of the Saints".

I'm offering terms like Universal Atonement, Resistible Grace, and Assurance of the Saints specifically as counter-terminoloy to the language of Calvinism's TULIP. Lutheranism doesn't have its own version of TULIP, but for the sake of comparison and contrast, this has been done.

Calvinism:
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

Lutheranism's response to TULIP:
Total Inability (We are completely unable to be righteous and to come to God because of Original Sin)
Unconditional Election (God chooses us based entirely on His love and grace toward us in Christ, not because of anything worthy about us)
Universal Atonement (Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, for everyone, completely, no exceptions)
Resistible Grace (We can resist and reject God's grace and forgiveness)
Assurance of the Saints (We can have full confidence and assurance of salvation because of God's faithful promises in the Gospel)

So, yes, there are others that deny the freedom of the will. Lutherans. But our denial of free will simply means that we are unable, by the power of our will, to be righteous--our will is held in bondage and captivity to sin.

If by "free will" one means can one make their own choices, then Lutherans believe in free will. In fact, we make those choices all the time, even in regard to God, we have a life-long record of our choosing against God.

If by "free will" one means can one make a choice to be righteous and believe in Jesus Christ, then no, Lutherans don't believe in free will. Because, again, the fallen will actively chooses against God.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you. @ViaCrucis this is exactly the intel I was looking for. Outside of Lutheran and Calvinism belief systems, are there any other Christian belief systems that deny free will?

(Side note: your belief system does not deny free will in my opinion. I get what you meant, but you are also not saying we are incapable of choices completely)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thank you. @ViaCrucis this is exactly the intel I was looking for. Outside of Lutheran and Calvinism belief systems, are there any other Christian belief systems that deny free will?

(Side note: your belief system does not deny free will in my opinion. I get what you meant, but you are also not saying we are incapable of choices completely)

I don't know that much about it, but possibly Jansenism. It's very similar to Calvinism in a number of ways, but was a theological movement in post-Trent Catholicism.

Jansenism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In doing a little bit of reading, it also turns out that "Jansenism" is a loaded and rather messy term.

Are Jansenists Among Us?

Shaun Blanchard, Franciscan Missionaries of Our Lady University Theology Assitant Professor, denies the existence of contemporary Jansenists.

churchlifejournal.nd.edu

-CryptoLutheran

 

[zippy2006]

I don't know that much about it, but possibly Jansenism. It's very similar to Calvinism in a number of ways, but was a theological movement in post-Trent Catholicism.

I have never seen evidence that Jansenists ventured into the philosophical areas that Calvin was willing to get into. In my understanding they are closer to Lutheranism in this area, insofar as they accept free will but also hold to a stronger view of depravity. Their heresy was not related to libertarian free will per se.

 

[ladodgers6]

I asked something similar in another post, but didn’t want to overcrowd it since this technically is a different question.

I understand now that Calvinism is not a denomination but a belief system. So my question is, is the Calvinist belief system, the only Christian belief system that denies free will? If not, what are the other(s)?

Excellent question, I am glad to see people doing their due diligence. Well, one has to understand what happened in the Garden. And what was the gravity of sin, that brought the curse of the Law upon Adam and all his progeny. This is key to understanding "Free-Will".

 

[Andrewn]

Lutherans, on the other hand, maintain that predestination applies only to election. And it has nothing to do with God, in the beginning, picking and choosing who will or will not be saved. But rather, it means that God has chosen you in Christ. How can you know this? Because God reveals it in Word and Sacrament. So you can know that you are predestined because you were baptized. Because you have heard the Gospel preached and you believe it. Because the words are spoken to you in the Sacrament of Absolution that your sins are forgiven on Christ's account. Election isn't secret, with only God knowing who is and isn't "really saved" or "truly elect". It is a public declaration through God's Means of Grace, for you, to you, that you are the object of God's love and affection in Christ. Christ, therefore, died for everyone (Universal Atonement), we can resist and reject the call of the Gospel (Resistible Grace), and if we turn away from faith in Christ, we make shipwreck of our faith, and can become apostate and lost. So instead, Lutherans teach that the Christian can have full and complete confidence of their salvation in Christ, not by looking at themselves, but looking instead at the external word and promises of God, by looking to what God says and does: Christ died for you, you are baptized, here is Christ's Supper where you eat His flesh and drink His blood, the words of Absolution declare you forgiven; thus we teach the "Assurance of the Saints".

How is this different from Arminianism?

I also have another question: Do Lutherans believe in Penal Substitution Theory?

 

[ViaCrucis]

How is this different from Arminianism?

In almost every way. The five Articles of Remonstrance is, like Calvinism's TULIP, contrary to the Lutheran position.

Arminans believe in Conditional Election--God has elected those whom He foreknew would believe; they would believe because of Prevenient Grace which enables the human will to be able to make a free choice to believe the Gospel.

Lutherans believe in Unconditional Election. We do not believe in Irresistable Grace the way Calvinists do, but neither do we believe in Prevenient Grace the way Arminians do.

On the Atonement we reject the Limited Atonement of Calvinism, but we also reject the Unlimited Atonement of Arminianism; instead we believe in Universal Atonement. The difference between Unlimited Atonement and Universal Atonement is that Unlimited Atonement says Christ died for all in potential--Christ's death gives the potential for all to believe and be saved, but it is up to the individual's power of will to come to faith and be saved. Universal Atonement means Christ died for all, and it is actually efficacious for all, that means that there is an objective reality that happened on the cross for every single person: Every person is, in that sense, justified on the cross. But in order to receive the benefit of that is through the preaching of the Gospel and God, through faith, making us the passive recipients.

Arminianism says we are active in our justiciation, Lutherans say we are passive.

I also have another question: Do Lutherans believe in Penal Substitution Theory?

To an extent. Luther himself favored the idea of the Happy Exchange, Christ takes our death and sin, bears it under the weight of His cross, and in exchange we get His righteousness and His life. In that sense He bears the penalty of sin, death and the shame of the cross. In that sense He then bears the wrath of God. But it's not about an angry Father beating His Son, but about a loving God embracing the full wretchedness of man and bearing it in His own humanity for us, making satisfaction, and gifting us with His righteousness, His obedience, His resurrected life.

I don't know that there is a de facto Atonement Theory in Lutheranism. Elements of various Atonement Theories can be found in Lutheranism. Satisfaction Theory was the dominant view in the West, and so the language of satisfaction plays a major role in the writings of early Lutheranism.

In that sense Penal Substitution, as a fully realized theory of the Atonement is largely a product of the Reformed tradition, rather than the Lutheran tradition. There are elements of it in Lutheran writing and ideas about the Atonement, but it's never THE theory of the Atonement.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Andrewn]

In almost every way. The five Articles of Remonstrance is, like Calvinism's TULIP, contrary to the Lutheran position.

I see no truth in Calvinism and a lot of truth in Lutheranism and Arminiasm.

 

[Tyler35]

I don't know that much about it, but possibly Jansenism. It's very similar to Calvinism in a number of ways, but was a theological movement in post-Trent Catholicism.

Jansenism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In doing a little bit of reading, it also turns out that "Jansenism" is a loaded and rather messy term.

Are Jansenists Among Us?

Shaun Blanchard, Franciscan Missionaries of Our Lady University Theology Assitant Professor, denies the existence of contemporary Jansenists.

churchlifejournal.nd.edu

-CryptoLutheran

Again, thank you @ViaCrucis, your insight is extremely helpful. I am looking for knowledge, not a debate and you’ve provided straight forward insight. It sounds from your response that you can’t think of any other Christian belief systems (outside of Calvinism), that deny free will. Is this accurate to say?

 

[ladodgers6]

Lutherans aren't Calvinists, like at all, but there are some ideas Lutherans and Calvinists share in common, though sometimes only superficially. One of these is that both Calvinists and Lutherans deny the freedom of the will.

Lutherans believe that, on account of sin, the human will is also sinful--and thus not free. Specifically, a human being cannot, by their own strength and power, be righteous. We cannot even come to God and say "yes" to Him.

Lutherans, like Calvinists, also believe in Predestination. However, we believe in it in a very different way than Calvinists do.

Calvinism holds that God has predestined some for election and salvation, and (at least by implication) either has selected the rest for damnation or has otherwise simply passed them over. From this, then, Calvinism (at least Five-Point Calvinism) argues that Christ only died for the elect (Limited Atonement), that the elect when they hear the Gospel will believe (Irresistible Grace) and can never fall away (Perseverance of the Saints).

Lutherans, on the other hand, maintain that predestination applies only to election. And it has nothing to do with God, in the beginning, picking and choosing who will or will not be saved. But rather, it means that God has chosen you in Christ. How can you know this? Because God reveals it in Word and Sacrament. So you can know that you are predestined because you were baptized. Because you have heard the Gospel preached and you believe it. Because the words are spoken to you in the Sacrament of Absolution that your sins are forgiven on Christ's account. Election isn't secret, with only God knowing who is and isn't "really saved" or "truly elect". It is a public declaration through God's Means of Grace, for you, to you, that you are the object of God's love and affection in Christ. Christ, therefore, died for everyone (Universal Atonement), we can resist and reject the call of the Gospel (Resistible Grace), and if we turn away from faith in Christ, we make shipwreck of our faith, and can become apostate and lost. So instead, Lutherans teach that the Christian can have full and complete confidence of their salvation in Christ, not by looking at themselves, but looking instead at the external word and promises of God, by looking to what God says and does: Christ died for you, you are baptized, here is Christ's Supper where you eat His flesh and drink His blood, the words of Absolution declare you forgiven; thus we teach the "Assurance of the Saints".

I'm offering terms like Universal Atonement, Resistible Grace, and Assurance of the Saints specifically as counter-terminoloy to the language of Calvinism's TULIP. Lutheranism doesn't have its own version of TULIP, but for the sake of comparison and contrast, this has been done.

Calvinism:
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

Lutheranism's response to TULIP:
Total Inability (We are completely unable to be righteous and to come to God because of Original Sin)
Unconditional Election (God chooses us based entirely on His love and grace toward us in Christ, not because of anything worthy about us)
Universal Atonement (Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, for everyone, completely, no exceptions)
Resistible Grace (We can resist and reject God's grace and forgiveness)
Assurance of the Saints (We can have full confidence and assurance of salvation because of God's faithful promises in the Gospel)

So, yes, there are others that deny the freedom of the will. Lutherans. But our denial of free will simply means that we are unable, by the power of our will, to be righteous--our will is held in bondage and captivity to sin.

If by "free will" one means can one make their own choices, then Lutherans believe in free will. In fact, we make those choices all the time, even in regard to God, we have a life-long record of our choosing against God.

If by "free will" one means can one make a choice to be righteous and believe in Jesus Christ, then no, Lutherans don't believe in free will. Because, again, the fallen will actively chooses against God.

-CryptoLutheran

I Love Luther and learned a lot from him. Specifically Justification by Faith Alone, this is the heart and crux of the Gospel, this is where the church stands or falls, both Luther and Calvin both wholeheartedly agreed. Without this doctrinal truth, nothing else matters!

I am a Convinced Classical Calvinist; not to be confused with Hyper-Calvinism. I think of myself as a Lutheran Calvie, if there is such a thing. A must read for all is Luther's Commentary on Romans & Galatians. His Bondage of the Will is another great work that needs attention for all Christians.​

 

[ViaCrucis]

I Love Luther and learned a lot from him. Specifically Justification by Faith Alone, this is the heart and crux of the Gospel, this is where the church stands or falls, both Luther and Calvin both wholeheartedly agreed. Without this doctrinal truth, nothing else matters!

I am a Convinced Classical Calvinist; not to be confused with Hyper-Calvinism. I think of myself as a Lutheran Calvie, if there is such a thing. A must read for all is Luther's Commentary on Romans & Galatians. His Bondage of the Will is another great work that needs attention for all Christians.​

In a sense, Lutherans have no better friends than the Reformed. That said, there are irreconcilable differences, and those differences really do make all the difference in the world. I would encourage you to do a deep dive on that.

Specifically, and in particularly, from whence does one derive their assurance? From within, or from without?

Lutherans say our assurance can be explained simply with just two words: baptizatus sum, "I'm baptized". That is, assurance is not found within myself, but outside of myself, in God's Word and Sacraments. And that really matters.

-CryptoLutheran