Free Will, Predeterminism, and Predestination

[Mark Quayle]

It shows two things, the term foreknown used in Romans, was not perceived in a Calvinistic sense. The Early Church did not believe it meant selected from before creation to be saved, or damned. In the context of its general usage in all the passages shown by Justin Marytr, it can mean foreknown to believe, in the sense that God knew people would believe, not God made people bad (unchangeably wicked) for he said they could repent if they wanted to, neither did God force others to accept the good.

Once again, and as usual, you misrepresent Calvinism. It does not say that God "forced" any to reject nor to accept the good. The wicked freely choose to reject the good, according to their own desires and inclinations. The born again accept the good because they are born of God, by the Spirit of God. Where is the forcing?

Take a look at the rest of the life of the elect, subsequent to being born again: Their every step is in God's hands, yet they choose according to their preferences and inclinations —sometimes good, sometimes bad. They are irrevocably set on a course to Heaven, by God's decree and use of them —it will surely happen— but that doesn't mean that they don't freely choose to obey and disobey.

You have the mind of self-determinism: You think that a man is what he is now—not what he will be.

The reality of existence is by the Word of God alone. How then, is anything a man decides, not established by God?

 

[Clare73]

Once again, and as usual, you misrepresent Calvinism. It does not say that God "forced" any to reject nor to accept the good. The wicked freely choose to reject the good, according to their own desires and inclinations. The born again accept the good because they are born of God, by the Spirit of God. Where is the forcing?

Take a look at the rest of the life of the elect, subsequent to being born again: Their every step is in God's hands, yet they choose according to their preferences and inclinations —sometimes good, sometimes bad. They are irrevocably set on a course to Heaven, by God's decree and use of them —it will surely happen— but that doesn't mean that they don't freely choose to obey and disobey.

Let me point out here that God works in man's disposition which governs his will, giving man to prefer the things of God which he then willingly and freely chooses.
God does not violate man's free will, God uses man's free will to bring man to him.

You have the mind of self-determinism: You think that a man is what he is now—not what he will be.

The reality of existence is by the Word of God alone. How then, is anything a man decides, not established by God?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Once again, and as usual, you misrepresent Calvinism. It does not say that God "forced" any to reject nor to accept the good. The wicked freely choose to reject the good, according to their own desires and inclinations. The born again accept the good because they are born of God, by the Spirit of God. Where is the forcing?

Oh, come on. You say God works everything according to his will, and a part of that will is to save some and his will is to purposely damn others. Forced into life, or forced into death, your doctrine gives no choice.

You don't like the word "force" because it is so wrong, but that is exactly what Calvinism is. Regardless of whether you think God allows small choices, He does not allow the most important choice a person could make eternal salvation or damnation.

It is eternal salvation the Church Fathers refer to when they say:

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness... - Iranaeus [A.D. 120-202.] - Against Heresies Chap. XXXVII

Calvanism does not match anything similar to the Early Churches view.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

It is often easier to put down an argument on a Website than post. I am starting to create a resource on free will at The Early Churches Meaning of the term Foreknew if you are interested.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Once again, and as usual, you misrepresent Calvinism. It does not say that God "forced" any to reject nor to accept the good. The wicked freely choose to reject the good, according to their own desires and inclinations. The born again accept the good because they are born of God, by the Spirit of God. Where is the forcing?

Oh, come on. You say God works everything according to his will, and a part of that will is to save some and his will is to purposely damn others. Forced into life, or forced into death, your doctrine gives no choice.

You don't like the word "force" because it is so wrong, but that is exactly what Calvinism is. Regardless of whether you think God allows small choices, He does not allow the most important choice a person could make eternal salvation or damnation.

It is eternal salvation the Church Fathers refer to when they say:

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness... - Iranaeus [A.D. 120-202.] - Against Heresies Chap. XXXVII

Calvanism does not match anything similar to the Early Churches view.

To your mind, does anything other than what happens, also happen? Of course not! But that doesn't mean that what happens should be considered forced to happen. It happens quite 'naturally', by way of causation. Always, unless God intervenes. So it is with the choices of the lost —they cannot submit, because they WILL not to do so. And they will not to, because they are infected to the core of their being. And they are infected to the core of their being because they are descendants of Adam, who fell. (Adam's curse that was, by the way, of God's doing.) And why did Adam fall? Do you think when God created Lucifer he did not know what would happen as a result? Can you think of anything that has happened that is not a result —even if a 'long-run' result— of God creating? Does anything happen by mere accident, luck, chance? Or by another First Cause, besides God?

To go along with the inclusion of the word "force" into your description of Calvinism's teachings, you claim that my doctrine says that God purposely damns those he has not saved. The truth is, that is not his primary reason for them, though it be true. In your expressing it apart from his main reason for creating them —the demonstration of his purity, power and grace towards those to whom he chose to show mercy— you rather obviously wish to imply that Calvinism's God has no other purpose for creating them, but cruelty towards unwitting victims. But Calvinism teaches no such thing.

God has caused all things subsequent to his speaking the universe (and every particular tiniest fact, and every biggest fact,) into being. And our choices are part of that. He has forced nothing, unless you mean coerced, such as "forcing" Jonah to obey. That he indeed does, sometimes, which I expect you agree with.

Not that Iranaeus couldn't have gotten Paul all wrong, anyway, but "Rational beings" we are. "Free agents" we are. But, able to do something uncaused, we are not. Nor does Iranaeus claim we are, in what you quoted there.

 

[zoidar]

.... Also, and this is no minor thing, the Spirit of God witnesses with my spirit, that I am a child of God, one of his own people...

I'm curious, how do you know or experience God's Spirit witnessing to your spirit you are of His own?

 

[Bob corrigan]

Gen 24:50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, the thing proceeded from the Lord. We cannot speak to thee bad or good.

Josh 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come out against Israel...

What about Balaam, Num, chapter 22-23? Balaam desperately wanted to curse Israel, but couldn't! His "free will" was to rain down curses on Israel, but he could only speak blessings! He spoke what it was God's will for him to speak, not his own!

Num 23:8 How shall I curse whom God has not cursed? How shall I defy whom the LORD has not defied?

1Chr 5:26 And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul...and the spirit of Tilgathpineser...

2Chr 30:12 Also in Judah the hand of God was to give them one heart to do the commandment of the king and princes, by the word of the LORD.

Job 23:13 But he is of one mind, and who can turn Him? What His soul desires, that He does.

Job 34:29 When He giveth quiteness, who then can make trouble?

Job 42:11 ...and comforted Job over all of the evil the LORD had brought upon him..."

Psalm 33:9 For He spoke and it was done. He commanded and it stood still.

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord

Psalm 50:22 Now consider this, you who forget about God, lest I tear you and there is none to deliever you (from my hand)

Pro 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, but the LORD directs his steps.

Pro 19:21 There are many purposes in a man's heart (mind) Nevertheless, the purpose of the LORD, that shall stand.

Pro 21:1 The king's mind is in the hand of the LORD. As the LORD turns the rivers of water, He turns the king's mind in the way He wants it to go.

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of the LORD. Who can make straight which He has made crooked?

Is 44:28 The LORD says of Cyrus, He is my shepherd and shall perform my pleasure, including saying to Jerusalem , You shalt be (re)built, and for the Temple, the foundation will be laid.

Is 45:7 I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the LORD do these things.

If you want to read a great book about God's sovereignty, get a copy of A. W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm curious, how do you know or experience God's Spirit witnessing to your spirit you are of His own?

Felt assurance, I suppose is the best general way to describe it. For me it is usually along the lines of enjoying him and enjoying the fact of his activity and success.

 

[Stephen3141]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

I think that you need to consider some more options.

If we exist in a time slice, and time is created, then I can live with that.
But how can we say that God "created" anything, if time is a created dimensions, and creation took time?
If God is outside time, or if all time exists "in God", then how can we describe the creation as taking any time?

If God creates time, as we live our life, then how can God know the future? There is no future.

If God knows the future, then how can God be described by Scripture as wishing for all men to come to a knowledge of salvation?
If this is what God wishes, then why does it not happen?
Is God divided, wishing one thing, while knowing that many people will reject his salvation?

Can God create us, and bring us to a place where we have free will (however he does that), then let us decide?
Can he do this, knowing what we will decide, and wishing that we chose something else?

Can God protect his people from temptations that are too strong for them to resist,
while knowing that we may chose to sin?


I would rather take texts of Scripture in faith, and believe that God does allow us to chose.
Even if we may chose what God wishes that we did not choose.
I would rather leave the HOW, as to how God does this, to God.

 

[Clare73]

It is often easier to put down an argument on a Website than post. I am starting to create a resource on free will at The Early Churches Meaning of the term Foreknew if you are interested.

Pardon me for saying so, but it matters not how anyone "understood" foreknew, what matters is its Biblical use in Scripture, where prognosisis is used only of divine foreknowledge; i.e., God foreknowing his own actions, "Known to the Lord for ages is his work" (Ac 13:58), it is not used of foreknowing man's actions.

 

[Clare73]

I think that you need to consider some more options.

If we exist in a time slice, and time is created, then I can live with that.
But how can we say that God "created" anything, if time is a created dimensions, and creation took time?
If God is outside time, or if all time exists "in God", then how can we describe the creation as taking any time?

If God creates time, as we live our life, then how can God know the future? There is no future.

If God knows the future, then how can God be described by Scripture as wishing for all men to come to a knowledge of salvation?
If this is what God wishes, then why does it not happen?
Is God divided, wishing one thing, while knowing that many people will reject his salvation?

Can God create us, and bring us to a place where we have free will (however he does that), then let us decide?
Can he do this, knowing what we will decide, and wishing that we chose something else?

Can God protect his people from temptations that are too strong for them to resist,
while knowing that we may chose to sin?

I would rather take texts of Scripture in faith, and believe that God does allow us to chose.
Even if we may chose what God wishes that we did not choose.
I would rather leave the HOW, as to how God does this, to God.

Because of our fallen nature, man's free will is limited, he cannot make all moral choices, as in the choice to be sinless in thought, word and deed in all things at all times.
Free will in fallen man can be defined as "the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what he prefers."
And since unregenerate man is hostile to God (Ro 8:7-8), he will never choose submission to God at all times and in all things.

But human will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by the disposition, what one prefers, likes.
God works in the disposition of man giving him to prefer God and his rule in all things, and so man freely and willingly chooses what he prefers--this is the operation of free will; i.e., choosing what one prefers.
God does not violate free will in bringing men to himself, he uses free will to do so.
Man freely and willingly chooses submission to God.

Unregenerate man never chooses submission to God (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:3-5).
So that is free will operating in both cases, man freely choosing what he prefers.
And that is God sovereignly electing who will be saved.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Because of our fallen nature, man's free will is limited, he cannot make all moral choices, as in the choice to be sinless in thought, word and deed in all things at all times.
Free will in fallen man can be defined as "the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what he prefers."
And since unregenerate man is hostile to God (Ro 8:7-8), he will never choose submission to God at all times and in all things.

But human will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by the disposition, what one prefers, likes.
God works in the disposition of man giving him to prefer God and his rule in all things, and so man freely and willingly chooses what he prefers--the operation of free will.
God does not violate free will in bringing men to himself, he uses free will to do so.
Man freely and willingly chooses submission to God.

Unregenerate man never chooses submission to God (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:3-5).
That is free will operating in both cases, man freely choosing what he prefers.

Your thesis seems to dismiss God choosing the Elect...

I conclude His Love is irresistible as He draws His chosen unsaved to Himself.

Thoughts ?

Think of the conversion of Paul - did he want to be blinded?

Personally I think freewill is overblown and man has made it sacrosanct. This removes God's perogative to choose. John said conversion was not about the will of man.

 

[Clare73]

Your thesis seems to dismiss God choosing the Elect...

I conclude His Love is irresistible as He draws His chosen unsaved to Himself.

Thoughts ?

Think of the conversion of Paul - did he want to be blinded?

Personally I think freewill is overblown and man has made it sacrosanct. This remove God's perogative to choose. John said conversion was not about the will of man.

I'm trying to show that God sovereignly chooses (elects) some sinners to be saved, and does not violate their free will in making them so.

 

[zoidar]

I'm trying to show that God sovereignly chooses (elects) some sinners to be saved, and does not violate their free will in making them so.

The objection I have is you call this free will. How is such a will more free than balls dropped into a labyrinth?

From your perspectice it would be interesting to hear if you believe animals have free will, why or why not? They too choose what they are inclined to choose right?

 

[Clare73]

The objection I have is you call this free will. How is such a will more free than balls dropped into a labyrinth?

By the definition of free will as found in fallen man; i.e.,
the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what he prefers.

From your perspectice it would be interesting to hear if you believe animals have free will, why or why not? They too choose what they are inclined to choose right?

Only when they are moral.

The subject is moral free will.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Pardon me for saying so, but it matters not how anyone "understood" foreknew, what matters is its Biblical use in Scripture, where prognosisis is used only of divine foreknowledge; i.e., God foreknowing his own actions, "Known to the Lord for ages is his work" (Ac 13:58), it is not used of foreknowing man's actions.

So you think your view of the word foreknowledge is better than the early church's understanding? So people separated, no more than 150 years after Jesus has a "more corrupted" view of God (In your opinion), than someone 2000 years later with "NO UNDERSTANDING" of the original languages, or church tradition.

Your view of God is a joke. You go around quoting the word like a hero of predestination, but you refuse the most simple of concepts as displayed clearly, that need no interpretation:

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Pardon me for saying so, but it matters not how anyone "understood" foreknew, what matters is its Biblical use in Scripture, where prognosisis is used only of divine foreknowledge; i.e., God foreknowing his own actions, "Known to the Lord for ages is his work" (Ac 13:58), it is not used of foreknowing man's actions.

On a second note, I have no problem with God's planning He has a plan, one possibly laid down in the beginning, but the plan is not linear, it changes based upon our actions. God does not, and can not sin, do he has not panned out man's sins. He adjusts plans based on our actions, as He did in the case of David, when "he" sinned.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

John said conversion was not about the will of man.

Really? The scripture that talks about how we receive the Holy Spirit clearly puts the ball in our court. Yes God gives us unmerited grace, but whether we respect and obey God by accepting that determines if we are saved or not.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

God's love is linked to our response, our actions. God does not just go around declaring sinners righteous, He makes us righteous, we must follow in the steps He has revealed. Our righteousness is very slender, it is by grace we have been saved. But our response to God's gift is what declares us right in God's eyes.

 

[Carl Emerson]

John 1 12

to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

 

[zoidar]

By the definition of free will as found in fallen man; i.e.,
the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what he prefers.

Only when they are moral.

The subject is moral free will.

I still don't understand why you call it "free". Why not just call it will or individual will? Since from your view you have been created in such a way you will make this specific choice. You will only will what has been decreed, so how is that will free?