Free Will, Predeterminism, and Predestination

[Mark Quayle]

zoidar said:
Matthew 10:29-30 (NIV)
29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. b 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

What in particular points to God controlling every atom? The whole creation is in God's care. If God has such great concern for the sparrows, how much bigger concern does He have for His children?

Mark Quayle said:
I should think Matthew 10:29-30 speaks of his particular attention, rather than the generic "love" and "some goals".

"What in particular point to God controlling every atom" is the simple logic of causation. Even if by way of omniscience: If God is omniscient, then at the very least he knew absolutely every motion of every tiniest particle and energy; yet he created anyway, knowing it would happen as a result —therefore, he intended that it happen.

Is that what Matthew 10:29-30 is about?

You didn't only ask what was Matthew 10:29-30 was about.

And FWIW, Matthew 10:29-30 isn't about anything upon which the rest of Scripture isn't brought to bear.

 

[Clare73]

I don't see the word ordaining in Matthew 10:29-30. God has such a big care for His children, that even the hairs of their heads are numbered. If God has care for such small details, how much more will He take care of His children?

If my chickens are numbered, it is because I numbered them for a reason, to have exactly the number I wanted.

 

[zoidar]

zoidar said:
Matthew 10:29-30 (NIV)
29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. b 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

What in particular points to God controlling every atom? The whole creation is in God's care. If God has such great concern for the sparrows, how much bigger concern does He have for His children?

Mark Quayle said:
I should think Matthew 10:29-30 speaks of his particular attention, rather than the generic "love" and "some goals".

"What in particular point to God controlling every atom" is the simple logic of causation. Even if by way of omniscience: If God is omniscient, then at the very least he knew absolutely every motion of every tiniest particle and energy; yet he created anyway, knowing it would happen as a result —therefore, he intended that it happen.

You didn't only ask what was Matthew 10:29-30 was about.

And FWIW, Matthew 10:29-30 isn't about anything upon which the rest of Scripture isn't brought to bear.

What in particular points to God controlling every atom ... in Matthew 10:29-30 ....

 

[Kermos]

I suppose, if it would satisfy you, I could quote the very verses you've been using. They demonstrate Adam made a choice. If creation has been subjected to frustration, not willingly, that only shows that creation was subjected to frustration by some other means, not choice. Apparently your logic jumps from that to the notion that they being subjected unwillingly to frustration means that they make no willing choices at all. But even then, you still have not shown that creation has always been subjected to frustration, when the story of the fall seems the turning point of that question.

Your heart's thoughts are "the creation was subjected to futility, chose willingly" because you wrote "They demonstrate Adam made a choice", yet in Truth (John 14:6), the Apostle Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22); therefore, Adam did not make a free-will choice per the Apostle Paul.

A word about your noble-sounding use of 'It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'"' —it is also written, "...with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." In other words, God's thoughts are above yours, too.

The difference between you and I is that I proclaim the unadulterated Word of God.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that "the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 8:7-8), and Adam was flesh during his whole life, even in the garden, so Adam was evil before he ate of the tree forbidden as food, even without free-will.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your heart's thoughts are "the creation was subjected to futility, chose willingly" because you wrote "They demonstrate Adam made a choice", yet in Truth (John 14:6), the Apostle Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22); therefore, Adam did not make a free-will choice per the Apostle Paul.



The difference between you and I is that I proclaim the unadulterated Word of God.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that "the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (the Apostle Paul, Romans 8:7-8), and Adam was flesh during his whole life, even in the garden, so Adam was evil before he ate of the tree forbidden as food, even without free-will.

Just bear in mind, the standard you use (in this case 'adulteration' of Scriptures) will be used to measure you, just as what I just said will be used to measure me.

What's ironic is that I don't believe in free will as most take it to mean. I only believe in real choice, which they take to mean that man's choices are uncaused by God. Illogical and, as you say also, unbiblical.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Ge 20:6, Ex 3:21, Ex 14:17, Ex 23:27, Dt 2:25, Dt 2:30, Jos 11:20,
2 Sa 24:1, 1 Kgs 22:23, 1 Chr 5:26, Ezr 1:1, Ezr 1:5, Pr 21:1,
Eze 14:9, Dan 1:9, Dan 4:35,
Mt 10:29-30, Jn 6:37, Lk 22:22, Ac 2:23, Ac 4:28, Ac 13:48,
Ro 8:29-30, Ro 9:14-29, Ro 11:25-34, 2 Co 8:16, Eph 1:4-12, 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2 , Rev 17:17

Uh . .there's 30 of them.

It's the totality of them that demonstrates how far omnipotence and sovereignty extend.

But you might start with Mt 10:29-30 and Dan 4:35.

Just because God moves things toward His will does not prove predestination, it just shows God directs people according to a plan. Let's look at a case study David.

In the Psalms he wrote:

Psa 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

2Sa 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."

We see in the above passage David was rebuked for his sin, and God changed the plan He had for David, based on David's disobedience. God surely writes down stories for us, according to His will, but our choices, obedience, or disobedience guide the final direction and outcome.

God does not plan our sin, He does not make us sin.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

The outcome of whether we are a vessel of wrath or mercy is based upon our choices.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Rom 9:21-22 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

In Romans Paul gives a hint on this, saying that any negative plan given by God was first preceded by His longsuffering, i.e. a person was drawn by God, refused God over and over, so was given to a sorry plan.

Romans 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[Clare73]

Just because God moves things toward His will does not prove predestination, it just shows God directs people according to a plan. Let's look at a case study David.

Scripture proves presdestination by stating such (Ro 8:29-30, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11).

In the Psalms he wrote:
Psa 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.
So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

2Sa 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."

We see in the above passage David was rebuked for his sin, and God changed the plan He had for David, based on David's disobedience. God surely writes down stories for us, according to His will, but our choices, obedience, or disobedience guide the final direction and outcome.

God does not plan our sin, He does not make us sin.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

The outcome of whether we are a vessel of wrath or mercy is based upon our choices.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Rom 9:21-22 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

In Romans Paul gives a hint on this, saying that any negative plan given by God was first preceded by His longsuffering, i.e. a person was drawn by God, refused God over and over, so was given to a sorry plan.

Romans 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Just because God moves things toward His will does not prove predestination, it just shows God directs people according to a plan. Let's look at a case study David.

In the Psalms he wrote:

Psa 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

2Sa 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."

We see in the above passage David was rebuked for his sin, and God changed the plan He had for David, based on David's disobedience. God surely writes down stories for us, according to His will, but our choices, obedience, or disobedience guide the final direction and outcome.

God does not plan our sin, He does not make us sin.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

The outcome of whether we are a vessel of wrath or mercy is based upon our choices.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Rom 9:21-22 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

In Romans Paul gives a hint on this, saying that any negative plan given by God was first preceded by His longsuffering, i.e. a person was drawn by God, refused God over and over, so was given to a sorry plan.

Romans 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

You continue with the same illogic. The fact that someone's choices are effective, even with eternal consequences, does not mean that those choices are not predestined. The fact that God would have done something different than what he ended up doing does not mean that he did not plan from the beginning to do precisely what he ended up doing.

I could present a much stronger example than yours. But your problem would still be the same. God actually SAID that he was going to destroy Ninevah. But is it not obvious that he planned for them to repent?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You continue with the same illogic. The fact that someone's choices are effective, even with eternal consequences, does not mean that those choices are not predestined. The fact that God would have done something different than what he ended up doing does not mean that he did not plan from the beginning to do precisely what he ended up doing.

I could present a much stronger example than yours. But your problem would still be the same. God actually SAID that he was going to destroy Ninevah. But is it not obvious that he planned for them to repent?

It is your case that is illogical. You are saying God predestined David's choice to sin. Yet the Bible says:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is your case that is illogical. You are saying God predestined David's choice to sin. Yet the Bible says:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

How does the plain fact that God, being omniscient, yet creating anyway, even by itself not demonstrate the logic of his causing that sin be?

That by itself is more than enough to show you are trying to make one thing mean another. God causing that sin be, even specifically the very sin that comes to pass, does not mean that he tempts anyone.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Scripture proves presdestination by stating such (Ro 8:29-30, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11).

The scripture you use to prop up the case for Predestination is:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You are suggesting, God knew a group of people before creation, and at that moment predestined them, or marked them out for salvation, leaving the others with no hope. In order to get some more context on the above scripture I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers. I do this to show how the word was used and interpreted in other Christian writings. I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used. Let’s look at the usage of the word.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”

Other examples of the usage of the word are seen below, we see in these examples it is used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”

We see from the first usage regarding angels and men that it does not mean selected to be righteous, or evil before creation, but rather God knew some would be unchangeably wicked, and some righteous before creation. In that context, the following could be understood as:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation, God knew there would be those who would believe, He, at creation, decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that He marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. XLII. — The Bells on the Priest’s Robe Were a Figure of the Apostles.

...all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself...

Chap. LXX. — So also the Mysteries of Mithras Are Distorted from the Prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.

...And this prophecy proves that we shall behold this very King with glory; and the very terms of the prophecy declare loudly, that the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord...

Chap. XLV. — Christ’s Session in Heaven Foretold.

...And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation...

 

[FutureAndAHope]

How does the plain fact that God, being omniscient, yet creating anyway, even by itself not demonstrate the logic of his causing that sin be?

That by itself is more than enough to show you are trying to make one thing mean another. God causing that sin be, even specifically the very sin that comes to pass, does not mean that he tempts anyone.

You anger me with your [......]

 

[Clare73]

The scripture you use to prop up the case for Predestination is:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You are suggesting,

You "gathered" much from my posting just the word of God.
However, I meant no more and no less than what it states.

Seems your issue is not with me, but with the word of God above.

God knew a group of people before creation, and at that moment predestined them, or marked them out for salvation, leaving the others with no hope. In order to get some more context on the above scripture I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers. I do this to show how the word was used and interpreted in other Christian writings. I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used. Let’s look at the usage of the word.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”

Other examples of the usage of the word are seen below, we see in these examples it is used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”

We see from the first usage regarding angels and men that it does not mean selected to be righteous, or evil before creation, but rather God knew some would be unchangeably wicked, and some righteous before creation. In that context, the following could be understood as:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation, God knew there would be those who would believe, He, at creation, decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that He marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. XLII. — The Bells on the Priest’s Robe Were a Figure of the Apostles.

...all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself...

Chap. LXX. — So also the Mysteries of Mithras Are Distorted from the Prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.

...And this prophecy proves that we shall behold this very King with glory; and the very terms of the prophecy declare loudly, that the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord...

Chap. XLV. — Christ’s Session in Heaven Foretold.

...And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation...

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You gathered a lot from my just posting the word of God.
However, I meant no more and no less than what it states.

Seems your issue is not with me, but with the word of God above.

No, my issue is with the way you interpret scripture. You are not even trying to understand. You block out every scripture that proves God is merciful and replace it with a satanic doctrine that blames God for every ill. Many people hate God because of your doctrine, yet you think you are helping Him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The scripture you use to prop up the case for Predestination is:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You are suggesting, God knew a group of people before creation, and at that moment predestined them, or marked them out for salvation, leaving the others with no hope. In order to get some more context on the above scripture I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers. I do this to show how the word was used and interpreted in other Christian writings. I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used. Let’s look at the usage of the word.

I think @Clare73 is 'suggesting', that God created certain individuals upon whom to show mercy, for the purpose of becoming the Dwelling Place of God, The Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. People don't 'happen to' God, from among which God chooses. God made humans specifically and individually for his own purposes, for his use of them!

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”

Other examples of the usage of the word are seen below, we see in these examples it is used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”

We see from the first usage regarding angels and men that it does not mean selected to be righteous, or evil before creation, but rather God knew some would be unchangeably wicked, and some righteous before creation. In that context, the following could be understood as:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation, God knew there would be those who would believe, He, at creation, decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that He marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. XLII. — The Bells on the Priest’s Robe Were a Figure of the Apostles.

...all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself...

Chap. LXX. — So also the Mysteries of Mithras Are Distorted from the Prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.

...And this prophecy proves that we shall behold this very King with glory; and the very terms of the prophecy declare loudly, that the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord...

Chap. XLV. — Christ’s Session in Heaven Foretold.

...And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation...

Even if I was to accept JM as an authority over my opinions and reasoning, I see that his words do not undo what @clare has been saying.

Going by what you put in italics:

First, he says God is not at Fault. (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I).
Second, he says that they were not created wicked. (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I).
Thirdly, he says, "So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God". (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I)
Fourthly, he says, "the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord". (Of course so!)
—and so on.

I'm not sure why you did all this. You said that you meant to show how the word "foreknown" was used by an early Church Father. Fine. Now how does that undo anything Clare has said?

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, my issue is with the way you interpret scripture. You are not even trying to understand. You block out every scripture that proves God is merciful and replace it with a satanic doctrine that blames God for every ill. Many people hate God because of your doctrine, yet you think you are helping Him.

No doubt you mean well, but this is near reportable. No doubt you are sincere, but maybe you should back off and think a bit — we all see through a glass darkly, including yourself. Is it not possible that you could be wrong?

Don't you suppose that some of us see your doctrine as heresy? Do you hear @clare getting loud with it? Yet, we are the ones who are loudly accused of disrespect for the Arminianistic-thinking believers.

Mercy without truth is not mercy.

 

[lukeh]

Its a translation problem. You don't have free will at all. You have free choice.

Everything is predetermined by God, the past, present and future can only happen one certain way and only ever will.

So your 'free will' does not exist.

But can you 'choose' what you do? Yes, to some degree you can. This is 'free choice'

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I think @Clare73 is 'suggesting', that God created certain individuals upon whom to show mercy, for the purpose of becoming the Dwelling Place of God, The Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. People don't 'happen to' God, from among which God chooses. God made humans specifically and individually for his own purposes, for his use of them!


Even if I was to accept JM as an authority over my opinions and reasoning, I see that his words do not undo what @clare has been saying.

Going by what you put in italics:

First, he says God is not at Fault. (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I).
Second, he says that they were not created wicked. (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I).
Thirdly, he says, "So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God". (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I)
Fourthly, he says, "the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord". (Of course so!)
—and so on.

I'm not sure why you did all this. You said that you meant to show how the word "foreknown" was used by an early Church Father. Fine. Now how does that undo anything Clare has said?

You are really making lip service to the comments.

Quote: First, he says God is not at Fault. (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I).

Your Doctrine: states God made some people unchangeably wicked. They are vessels of wrath. They have no hope and no choice. Which IS God's fault if your doctrine is to be believed.,

Quote: Second, he says that they were not created wicked. (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I).

Your Doctrine: They did not create themselves, and apparently according to Calvinism they are totally depraved or wicked.

Quote: Thirdly, he says, "So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God". (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I)

Your Doctrine: Wicked men can not repent, and God made them so. They cannot repent.

Quote: Fourthly, he says, "the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord". (Of course so!)

Reason: This is just to do with language usage, and shows the term "who he foreknew", can mean "those who God foreknew would believe in him"


If you are honest with yourself none of those statements are compatible with Calvinism or the idea of predestination.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I'm not sure why you did all this. You said that you meant to show how the word "foreknown" was used by an early Church Father. Fine. Now how does that undo anything Clare has said?

It shows two things, the term foreknown used in Romans, was not perceived in a Calvinistic sense. The Early Church did not believe it meant selected from before creation to be saved, or damned. In the context of its general usage in all the passages shown by Justin Marytr, it can mean foreknown to believe, in the sense that God knew people would believe, not God made people bad (unchangeably wicked) for he said they could repent if they wanted to, neither did God force others to accept the good.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You are really making lip service to the comments.

Quote: First, he says God is not at Fault. (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I).

Your Doctrine: states God made some people unchangeably wicked. They are vessels of wrath. They have no hope and no choice. Which IS God's fault if your doctrine is to be believed.,

No. My doctrine does not state God made some people unchangeably wicked. Yes, they are vessels of wrath, condemned as we all are without becoming born again, but no, God did not create anyone that way. Yes, he CAUSED that they become that, he even created them for purposes that include that end, but he did not create them unchangeably wicked —they CHOSE that. You have misrepresented what @Clare73 believes once again.

Quote: Second, he says that they were not created wicked. (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I).

Your Doctrine: They did not create themselves, and apparently according to Calvinism they are totally depraved or wicked.

Yes. How does that deny the quote? They are totally depraved, but they were not created totally depraved. They become that in Adam.

Quote: Thirdly, he says, "So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God". (Clare will have no problem with that, nor do I)

Your Doctrine: Wicked men can not repent, and God made them so. They cannot repent.

No. Wicked men will not repent, and no, God did not create them so, but caused that they become so. They cannot because they will not. Furthermore, logically, the fact that they cannot is not defeated by, nor does it defeat, the fact that God commands all men everywhere to repent. Furthermore, absolutely all men except Christ himself, are wicked until God regenerates them. They will not repent, until they are born again.

Quote: Fourthly, he says, "the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord". (Of course so!)

Reason: This is just to do with language usage, and shows the term "who he foreknew", can mean "those who God foreknew would believe in him"


If you are honest with yourself none of those statements are compatible with Calvinism or the idea of predestination.

If you are honest with yourself, none of your statements concerning Calvinism as presented against Scripture show Calvinism to oppose Scriptural predestination. AND, in large part, that is because you misrepresent Calvinism by describing what you think Calvinism implies, and not, after all, what it SAYS.