Free Will, Predeterminism, and Predestination

[BNR32FAN]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

I don’t see how the second option would imply multiple timelines. There can still be only one time line even with the infinite choices we might make. Our number of possible choices doesn’t mean there would be multiple timelines. We simply make whatever choice we decide in the same timeline.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But you are glossing over the issue, your doctrine states that man is "totally depraved", not just Gentiles but Jews. Paul's discourse shows that a "so called" totally depraved Jew can delight in God's law, but the will to perform it he can not find.

Rom 7:14-22 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Questions for you:

a) Are Jews Totally Depraved according to your doctrine?
b) Did Paul have the will to do good? Was his will intact?

And for the sake of my sanity, stop ignoring John 14. It is clearly stating our will to follow God's commands determines our, salvation, and enlightenment.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

So whose scriptures are really contradictory, yours or mine?

I also copy this from another post, regarding the meaning of the "foreknow" scriptures, and how it was used by the early church. It shows that foreknowledge is often "looking ahead to an event you perceive will take place", not "knowing definitely at the time that a future event will occur".

In order to get some context on

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), I have shown in other posts that they believed in genuine free will. But I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.



Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’



We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”



Other examples of the words usage are seen below, we see in these examples it is used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”


We see from the first usage regarding angels and men that it does not mean selected to be righteous, or evil before creation, but rather God knew some would be unchangeably wicked, and some righteous before creation. In that context, the following could be understood as:


Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation God knew there would be those who would believe, He at creation decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that he marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.

Iranaeus also refuted Calvinism 1300 years before Calvin was born in 170AD. He had quite a lot to say on the subject in book 4 of Adversus Haereses, 4 whole paragraphs to be exact.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedienceand the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

 

[Clare73]

But you are glossing over the issue, your doctrine states that man is "totally depraved", not just Gentiles but Jews. Paul's discourse shows that a "so called" totally depraved Jew can delight in God's law, but the will to perform it he can not find.

Well, it's not "my doctrine," it is the NT teaching of Paul.
No one is born believing, including Jews. Jews, like everyone else, are depraved until they come to faith in God.
But Jewish faith in God does not give the indwelling Holy Spirit of the new birth. That is linked only to faith in Jesus.
And not every Jew in Israel had saving faith in God; i.e., a saving trust in the promise of God, which was faithful to God.

Rom 7:14-22 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Questions for you:
a) Are Jews Totally Depraved according to your doctrine?

I assume you are referring to OT Jews.
All men were and are born condemned (Ro 5:18), depraved (fallen nature), objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).
The OT Jews were remediated with faith in God.

b) Did Paul have the will to do good? Was his will intact?

Paul was born depraved, "by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath" (Eph 2:3), as is all mankind.
The adult Paul had faith in God, he was not depraved, he was simply spiritually powerless to live in obedience until the power of the NT Holy Spirit.

And for the sake of my sanity, stop ignoring John 14. It is clearly stating our will to follow God's commands determines our, salvation, and enlightenment.
John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

So whose scriptures are really contradictory, yours or mine?

I have stated twice that in Jn 14 Jesus was speaking to the people of God who believed in God in the OT, and who believed that salvation depended on righteousness by law keeping.
He was not speaking to faithless pagan Gentiles who were condemned (Ro 5:18). You cannot equate the two, they are not the same at all.
To faithless pagan Gentiles, Jesus would have said that they must believe in him and his atoning work for the forgiveness of their sin and salvation from God's condemnation on their guilt (Ro 5:18).
What Jesus said to believing Jews does not apply to Gentiles with no faith.

I also copy this from another post, regarding the meaning of the "foreknow" scriptures, and how it was used by the early church. It shows that foreknowledge is often "looking ahead to an event you perceive will take place", not "knowing definitely at the time that a future event will occur".

That is as it applies to humans, who cannot know the future with certainty.
That does not apply to the omniscient God who knows all things, including the future. . .with certainty.

In order to get some context on
Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), I have shown in other posts that they believed in genuine free will. But I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

The body of Christ today has the same Scriptures the church fathers had, the same Holy Spirit to give them faith in and obedience to them, plus 2,000 years of lived Christianity by holy men to teach them.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho
Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.
Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.
Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.
...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’

We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”

A predetermined choice by God is predestination--an action, decree.
Foreknowledge is knowledge of--knowing the future.

Other examples of the words usage are seen below, we see in these examples it is used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”

The Greek Textus Receptus states: "Because whom he foreknew also he predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son of him, for him to be firstborn among many brothers; but whom he predestined, these also he called, and whom he called, these also he justified; but whom he justified, these also he glorified." (Ro 8:29-30)

We see from the first usage regarding angels and men that it does not mean selected to be righteous, or evil before creation, but rather God knew some would be unchangeably wicked, and some righteous before creation. In that context, the following could be understood as:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him,

That is
1) an alteration of the Greek Textus Receptus of Ro 8:29-30 given above, and
2) changes the meaning of "foreknew" (Gr: prognosis), always used of divine foreknowledge in the NT, from meaning of his own (divine) actions, to mean of men's (human) actions instead.

The Greek does not allow this alteration you propose.

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation God knew there would be those who would believe, He at creation decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that he marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.

But essentially, you have changed the meaning of the Greek text of the apostle in Ro 8:29-30.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But you are glossing over the issue, your doctrine states that man is "totally depraved", not just Gentiles but Jews. Paul's discourse shows that a "so called" totally depraved Jew can delight in God's law, but the will to perform it he can not find.

Rom 7:14-22 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Questions for you:

a) Are Jews Totally Depraved according to your doctrine?
b) Did Paul have the will to do good? Was his will intact?

And for the sake of my sanity, stop ignoring John 14. It is clearly stating our will to follow God's commands determines our, salvation, and enlightenment.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

So whose scriptures are really contradictory, yours or mine?

I also copy this from another post, regarding the meaning of the "foreknow" scriptures, and how it was used by the early church. It shows that foreknowledge is often "looking ahead to an event you perceive will take place", not "knowing definitely at the time that a future event will occur".

In order to get some context on

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), I have shown in other posts that they believed in genuine free will. But I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.



Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’



We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”



Other examples of the words usage are seen below, we see in these examples it is used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”


We see from the first usage regarding angels and men that it does not mean selected to be righteous, or evil before creation, but rather God knew some would be unchangeably wicked, and some righteous before creation. In that context, the following could be understood as:


Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation God knew there would be those who would believe, He at creation decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that he marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.

All Paul is saying in Romans 8 is that those who set their mind on the Spirit can please God but those who don’t can’t. He never says that those who don’t set their mind on the Spirit are incapable of doing so, he simply says that they can’t subject themselves to the law of God. He makes a similar statement in 1 Corinthians 2:14 as Clare quoted but if you read the next 5 sentences Paul wrote you’ll see that what he was actually talking about was that the Corinthians he was writing to, who were believers, were still carnal in nature and we’re not exercising their ability to set their mind on the Spirit. So even tho they were believers they were not spiritually appraised because they were still setting their mind on the flesh not on the Spirit. Most Calvinists stop reading at verse 14 and miss the entire point that’s being given in the beginning of the next chapter. It’s like when they turn to the next page they think it’s a completely new topic which it’s not. From a Calvinist interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14 the Corinthians Paul is referring to in chapter 3 should not be able to believe because according to Calvinists only those who are spiritually appraised are capable of believing. 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 destroys that theology.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I did not say it did not support 1 Ti 2:4-6, but rather it does not support your interpretation of 1 Ti 2:4-6, which contains a word with two meanings, which makes the difference between its conflict and its agreement with Ro 8:6-8, 1Co 2:14, Jn 3:5 and Jn 3:6-8.

So, since
1) Scripture does not contradict itself,
2) Ro 8:6-8, 1Co 2:14, Jn 3:5 and Jn 3:6-8 allow for no leeway in their declarative statements of the complete spiritual depravity and inability of man (Jn 6:65),
3) divine election of some is a constant theme in Paul's letters (Ro 8:29-30, 9:6-26, 11:5, 7, 28, 16:13; Col 3:12; 1Th 1:4, 2Th 2:13; Tit 11), 4) and "all" has two meanings: a) all men without exception (everyone), b) all men without distinction (includes Gentiles as well as Jews),

1 Ti 2:4-6 means that God desires all men; i.e., b) Gentiles as well as Jews, to be saved, and he gave himself as a ransom for all men; i.e., b) Gentiles as well as Jews.

This interpretation of "all"
is in agreement with all the texts above under consideration,
reconciles a seeming difference among the texts, and
is in agreement with all of the NT understood in the light of all of the NT.

Your idea that Jesus only died for the Elect Jews and Gentiles, and that group meaning all, is not supported by:

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

It clearly states God is the savior of all men and the savior of those who believe. There are two groups.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of a) all men, b) especially of those who believe.

a) is the whole world including unsaved
b) is the saved Jews and gentiles.


You say ALL = Only Saved Jews and Gentiles
1Ti 4:10 states ALL = Everybody in the World AND Only Saved Jews and Gentiles

 

[BNR32FAN]

I assume you are referring to OT Jews.
All were born condemned (Ro 5:18), depraved (fallen nature), objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).
All were remediated with faith in God.

All are born with a sinful nature but not condemned. We’re not actually condemned until we actually sin. Given enough time we eventually will but not everyone lives long enough to commit a sin. Adam & Eve had a sinful nature when they were created, that’s why they sinned but they weren’t condemned until they actually sinned. That’s why death hadn’t entered into the world until they sinned. As I’ve pointed out before Ezekiel 18:14-20 makes it very clear.

““Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father’s sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise. He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife, or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity. “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭14‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your idea that Jesus only died for the Elect Jews and Gentiles, and that group meaning all, is not supported by:

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

It clearly states God is the savior of all men and the savior of those who believe. There are two groups.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of a) all men, b) especially of those who believe.

a) is the whole world including unsaved
b) is the saved Jews and gentiles.


You say ALL = Only Saved Jews and Gentiles
1Ti 4:10 states ALL = Everybody in the World AND Only Saved Jews and Gentiles

Amen

“and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your idea that Jesus only died for the Elect Jews and Gentiles, and that group meaning all, is not supported by:

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

It clearly states God is the savior of all men and the savior of those who believe. There are two groups.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of a) all men, b) especially of those who believe.

a) is the whole world including unsaved
b) is the saved Jews and gentiles.


You say ALL = Only Saved Jews and Gentiles
1Ti 4:10 states ALL = Everybody in the World AND Only Saved Jews and Gentiles

He extends the invitation of salvation to all men. All will not be saved because many refuse to repent and believe. This still makes Him the Savior of the world because He has extended the invitation of salvation to everyone in the world.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Iranaeus also refuted Calvinism 1300 years before Calvin was born in 170AD. He had quite a lot to say on the subject in book 4 of Adversus Haereses, 4 whole paragraphs to be exact.

....

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

Yes the Early Church Fathers fought the idea of Predestination quite strongly. They called it Fatalism.

Here are some more good quotes on the side of free will.

Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination and says it is not what the Church believed in his day .

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus (120-202) (who you mentioned) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Well, it's not "my doctrine," it is the NT teaching of Paul.
No one is born believing, including Jews. Jews, like everyone else, are depraved until they come to faith in God.
But Jewish faith in God does not give the indwelling Holy Spirit of the new birth. That is linked only to faith in Jesus.
And not every Jew in Israel had saving faith in God; i.e., a saving trust in the promise of God, which was faithful to God.



I assume you are referring to OT Jews.
All men were and are born condemned (Ro 5:18), depraved (fallen nature), objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).
The OT Jews were remediated with faith in God.

Paul was born depraved, "by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath" (Eph 2:3), as is all mankind.
The adult Paul had faith in God, he was not depraved, he was simply spiritually powerless to live in obedience until the power of the NT Holy Spirit.

I have stated twice that in Jn 14 Jesus was speaking to the people of God who believed in God in the OT, and who believed that salvation depended on righteousness by law keeping.
He was not speaking to faithless pagan Gentiles who were condemned (Ro 5:18). You cannot equate the two, they are not the same at all.
To faithless pagan Gentiles, Jesus would have said that they must believe in him and his atoning work for the forgiveness of their sin and salvation from God's condemnation on their guilt (Ro 5:18).
What Jesus said to believing Jews does not apply to Gentiles with no faith.

That is as it applies to humans, who cannot know the future with certainty.
That does not apply to the omniscient God who knows all things, including the future. . .with certainty.

The body of Christ today has the same Scriptures the church fathers had, the same Holy Spirit to give them faith in and obedience to them, plus 2,000 years of lived Christianity by holy men to teach them.


A predetermined choice by God is predestination--an action, decree.
Foreknowledge is knowledge of--knowing the future.

The Greek Textus Receptus states: "Because whom he foreknew also he predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son of him, for him to be firstborn among many brothers; but whom he predestined, these also he called, and whom he called, these also he justified; but whom he justified, these also he glorified." (Ro 8:29-30)

That is
1) an alteration of the Greek Textus Receptus of Ro 8:29-30 given above, and
2) changes the meaning of "foreknew" (Gr: prognosis), always used of divine foreknowledge in the NT to mean of his own actions, to mean of men's actions instead.

The Greek does not allow this alteration you propose.

But essentially, you have essentially changed the meaning of the Greek text composed by the apostle.

You are not a Greek Speaker, and neither am I, Justin Martyr is and disagrees with your interpretation, standing firmly on the side of free will. My reading of Romans 8:29- 30 does not conflict with any greek idea.

God can still know that there will be people who will believe in Him. Your foreknowledge is saying God knew at the time who would be saved. Foreknowledge is looking ahead to a future time, where God knows something. My view and Justin Martyr's philosophy around the words offer strong support to my view.

Which is the view that God knew people would believe in Him, and He predestined them to life. Meaning had a plan before creation for those who would love him. Who would love Him those who would have faith in Him and obey Him?

Joh 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...


You say foreknown, means God preselected a group of people, so it was known beforehand. These were preselected for glory.
I say foreknown, means God "at the time", knew people would believe in Him. These were at that point, before creation, chosen in God's plan, for glory.

Neither of these things conflicts with any greek concept. We have to look at what Paul meant by it. Justin Martyr clearly in all of His writings, being one of the Earliest Chruch Fathers to comment on Pauls words, disagrees with Calvanism (as do all of the Early Chruch Fathers).

 

[Clare73]

All are born with a sinful nature but not condemned.

Ro 5:18 disagrees with you.

We’re not actually condemned until we actually sin.

We are by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:15)

Given enough time we eventually will but not everyone lives long enough to commit a sin. Adam & Eve had a sinful nature when they were created,

Adam and Eve had complete freedom of will, no fallen nature to draw them to sin.

Yours is unorthodox Christianity.

that’s why they sinned but they weren’t condemned until they actually sinned. That’s why death hadn’t entered into the world until they sinned. As I’ve pointed out before Ezekiel 18:14-20 makes it very clear.

““Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father’s sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise. He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife, or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity. “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭14‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

Your idea that Jesus only died for the Elect Jews and Gentiles, and that group meaning all, is not supported by:

Did I refer to elect Jews and Gentiles anywhere?

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

It clearly states God is the savior of all men and the savior of those who believe. There are two groups.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of a) all men, b) especially of those who believe.

a) is the whole world including unsaved
b) is the saved Jews and gentiles.


You say ALL = Only Saved Jews and Gentiles
1Ti 4:10 states ALL = Everybody in the World AND Only Saved Jews and Gentiles

You have me confused with someone else.

 

[Clare73]

You are not a Greek Speaker, and neither am I, Justin Martyr is and disagrees with your interpretation, standing firmly on the side of free will. My reading of Romans 8:29- 30 does not conflict with any greek idea.

God can still know that there will be people who will believe in Him. Your foreknowledge is saying God knew at the time who would be saved. Foreknowledge is looking ahead to a future time, where God knows something. My view and Justin Martyr's philosophy around the words offer strong support to my view.

Which is the view that God knew people would believe in Him, and He predestined them to life. Meaning had a plan before creation for those who would love him. Who would love Him those who would have faith in Him and obey Him?

Joh 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

Previously addressed. . .

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Did I refer to elect Jews and Gentiles anywhere?

You have me confused with someone else.

So let's look at this, you ignore any water-tight case and keep pushing scripture with which I have dealt.

Let's state it clearly:

The cross is given to all men, not just a preselected club.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

​

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

Do you listen to pastors and teachers? Are you accountable to them? Well, all the Earliest Chruch Leaders taught that man has genuine free will, that people were not preselected for salvation:

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho​

​

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.​

​

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...​

​

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.​

​

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...​

​

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.​

​

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.​

​

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.​

​

Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination and says it is not what the Church believed in his day​

​

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.​

​

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.​

​

All of the "foreknown" references can refer to God knowing in advance that people would believe in Him, and before creation having a plan for them.

Jesus did not teach predestination, but personal accountability in receiving the Holy Spirit:

Joh 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

The OT teaches personal accountability also:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Are you following a) Scripture, b) The Church, c) and Jesus, or have you followed a doctrine that drives people away from the Love of God. Based upon around 3 scriptures, that can have duel meanings. While you seem to ignore a) Scripture, b) The Chruch, c) Jesus.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes the Early Church Fathers fought the idea of Predestination quite strongly. They called it Fatalism.

Here are some more good quotes on the side of free will.

Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination and says it is not what the Church believed in his day .

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus (120-202) (who you mentioned) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

I think one of my favorite teachings from Iranaeus is that God gives to man what he desires. To those who desire the light He gives light but to those who prefer the darkness He gives them darkness. That’s a paraphrase, I don’t remember exactly how he worded it. His writings have a lot of great theology in them although I must say it was quite a struggle reading thru the vast majority of irrelevant literature about Gnosticism since it’s not really relevant to today but his wisdom and understanding of the scriptures is well worth the time spent enduring those irrelevant portions. The parts that are relevant helped me to have a better understanding of the Bible. I haven’t read much of Justin Martyr’s writings yet. It’s definitely something I intend to do in the near future. The disciples of the apostles can shed a lot of light on the interpretation that the authors of the scriptures intended to convey. I think their testimonies are very beneficial to all Christians when it comes to accurately interpreting the scriptures.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ro 5:18 disagrees with you.

So let’s examine this verse and apply your theology to it and see if there’s any consistency.

“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So you say that all are born condemned because this verse says that thru Adam’s transgression condemnation came to all men but at the same time you say that justification did not come to all men thru Christ’s sacrifice even tho this very same verse specifically states that thru His “act of righteousness justification came to all men”. You seem to be applying the first portion of this verse to your theology but not the second portion.

Yes thru Adam’s one transgression the RESULT (it came about) the condemnation of all men. Why? Because we all inherited his sinful nature. We didn’t inherit the guilt of his sin nor are we punished for his sin. Paul just specifically stated exactly why death came to all men in this very chapter just before the verse you quoted.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Death and condemnation spread to all men because all men sinned, not because Adam sinned, because all men sinned. Their sin was the result of Adam’s sin that led to their condemnation. So yes thru Adam’s transgression RESULTED condemnation to all men, because all men sinned. If everyone was condemned for what Adam did in the garden of Eden then Ezekiel 18:20 would be false.

“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So how does this verse fit into your theology?

 

[BNR32FAN]

We are by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 3:15)

We are “objects of wrath” before we sin?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Adam and Eve had complete freedom of will, no fallen nature to draw them to sin.

And yet they still managed to sin.

Yours is unorthodox Christianity.

Iranaeus is considered to be orthodox by all of the apostolic churches. Read what he wrote here.

Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command.

Evidently Iranaeus understood that Adam & Eve possessed a sinful nature from the very beginning. They were able to choose to do both good and evil, a quality given to them by God Himself. I’m not the one disputing orthodoxy. It’s your theology that is unorthodox. Calvinism has been refuted by every single apostolic church that still exists.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I think one of my favorite teachings from Iranaeus is that God gives to man what he desires. To those who desire the light He gives light but to those who prefer the darkness He gives them darkness. That’s a paraphrase, I don’t remember exactly how he worded it. His writings have a lot of great theology in them although I must say it was quite a struggle reading thru the vast majority of irrelevant literature about Gnosticism since it’s not really relevant to today but his wisdom and understanding of the scriptures is well worth the time spent enduring those irrelevant portions. The parts that are relevant helped me to have a better understanding of the Bible. I haven’t read much of Justin Martyr’s writings yet. It’s definitely something I intend to do in the near future. The disciples of the apostles can shed a lot of light on the interpretation that the authors of the scriptures intended to convey. I think their testimonies are very beneficial to all Christians when it comes to accurately interpreting the scriptures.

Yes Iranaeus can be quite hard to read, I skimmed most of the stuff regarding combatting the sects, it just makes very little sense to people today who don't understand what the sects actually believed. But the volumes they wrote on the nature of God, a quite refreshing. Showing God gives his goodwill to all. It is actually quite interesting when I first stared reading the Church Fathers, there was so much of it that I did not know where to begin, I asked the LORD to show me what they actually believed regarding free will, and when I opened the volume it opened to Chap. XXXVII (below).

The following shows the Early Chruch Fathers believed in a genuinely free will, as is evidenced specifically in the following (and many passages that follow that are unquoted):

Irenaeus (120-202AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness.

 

[Clare73]

So let’s examine this verse and apply your theology to it and see if there’s any consistency.

It's not "my theology," it is authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So you say that all are born condemned because this verse says that thru Adam’s transgression condemnation came to all men but at the same time you say that justification did not come to all men thru Christ’s sacrifice even tho this very same verse specifically states that thru His “act of righteousness justification came to all men”. You seem to be applying the first portion of this verse to your theology but not the second portion.

Yes thru Adam’s one transgression the RESULT (it came about) the condemnation of all men. Why? Because we all inherited his sinful nature.

Well presented.

We are not condemned because of our nature, we are condemned because Adam's sin/guilt is imputed to all men born of (the first) Adam (Ro 5:12-15), just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to all men born of (the second Adam) Christ (Ro 4:1-11, Ro 5:18-19).

We didn’t inherit the guilt of his sin nor are we punished for his sin. Paul just specifically stated exactly why death came to all men in this very chapter just before the verse you quoted.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Death and condemnation spread to all men because all men sinned, not because Adam sinned, because all men sinned.

How can you read Ro 5:12-15 and omit the heart of the dilemma it presents; i.e., there was no law carrying the death penalty between Adam and Moses, and where there is no law, there is no sin, yet all died because of sin (Ro 6:23)?
For what sin did they die?
They died because of Adam's sin imputed to all those born of (the first) Adam.

(The first) Adam's guilt is imputed by God to all men born of him (Ro 5:12-15),
just as (the second Adam) Christ's righteousness is imputed by faith to all men born of him (Ro 4:1-11, Ro 5:18-19),
just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3).

Their sin was the result of Adam’s sin that led to their condemnation. So yes thru Adam’s transgression RESULTED condemnation to all men, because all men sinned. If everyone was condemned for what Adam did in the garden of Eden then Ezekiel 18:20 would be false. “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So how does this verse fit into your theology?

It is not "my theology," it is the authoritative apostolic teaching of the NT.

Ezekiel states the son will not inherit the guilt of the father.
Adam's sin is not inherited, it is imputed by God (Ro 5:12-18), with the result that
all are by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).