Free Will, Predeterminism, and Predestination

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
If you could offer where Genesis 6:5-11 specifically came about by mere chance, I'd like to see it. Logically, God's predetermination is universal, and therefore specific, and applicable across the board to all Scripture. Chance is not. And, by the way, that by no means denies Real Choice by the creature.

It certainly did not come about by 'mere chance' -- but by the sinful choices of many over time, gradually spiraling downwards into a worse and worse level of total violence and sin so that not even a bit of kindness or love was around finally, except in Noah's family.

Good. And how did those "sinful choices of many over time" happen? By chance?

The only way to resolve the debates about totally fated/doomed predestination of (all) individuals, without any choices at all on their part -- vs free will...in a way that will truly convince someone that needs a lot of convincing to get a more complete view than a simplified doctrine....

Is really by just reading the Bible through fully, the entirety of it. This helps us go past the doctrine simplifications and get the fullness and completeness.

(which isn't hard nor is it tedious (not at all!), and is only about 60-70 hours of reading at an average pace)

That's a good way, and as a matter of fact, a very good way of plain learning about the heart of God. It is also (in part) the way I came to the conclusions I did —not by reading or being taught "doctrine simplifications". Oh, and one time through doesn't do the job. "The fullness and completeness is a never-ending learning.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You say that, but it is not supported by scripture. Genesis 6:5-11 is an example of free will in motion, and God regrets that he had made man. There may be a degree of "fixedness", to every man's story, but that does not negate free will. For God to regret making man, he had to have allowed for free will. There is no other valid explanation. God did not plan the wickendness. If the way God works is to select, 1 for salvation, and 2 not. Why would God care if man sinned he would be punished fittingly anyway. God regretted making man for he did not turn out how God had hoped. That is scripture. Where is predetermination universal?

Mark Quayle said:
Read that in all versions. This one is pretty good: "6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." It might be useful to you to understand that a person speaking 4000 years ago did not assume the same things you take the Hebrew to mean.

Sin is painful to God. Cosmic Treason is a pretty good word for it. So yeah, there was sorrow and grief. At the cross there was a lot of sorrow and grief. Yet we have scriptural testimony that it was specifically predetermined to happen, and precisely in the way it did happen.

 

[Clare73]

@Clare73
1) I have a friend who has carried this perspective through into Christian life and ended up with a totally passive approach to decision making.
2) So the distinction between fore-choosing salvation and spiritual fruitfulness needs to be made.
3) Scriptural support for mans will in the latter would be welcome.
4) Frankly I cant see how judgement for eternal reward works unless the limited freewill of man is involved and obedience is recognised.

Hi, Carl,
Great response.

1) God works through means (second causes), rather than directly, through human wisdom applied, human decisions, human effort; e.g., provision through self-effort and the help of others rather than dropping it down from heaven,
understanding of his word through application to study of it, rather than direct imbibement, etc.

2) The choosing by God to salvation is the re-birth, which is a transformed disposition toward God, whom one now prefers. God works in that transformed disposition giving one to desire to seek and know him, to believe and obey him in his word, which one does because it is what he now prefers. If one is God's own with a heart that seeks and obeys him, the Holy Spirit will give him knowledge in his effort to learn and mature.

3) Man's will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by his disposition; i.e., what he prefers.
God works in the disposition to give man to prefer the things of God, which man then freely chooses to pursue because he prefers them.

4) Jesus's teaching was by the OT, to those under the OT, and according to the OT, where righteousness was thought to be by works, to further press the point of the need of a Savior.
But since saving faith produces good works, works of obedience are still a good outside measure of saving faith.
Consequently, no good works, or the practice of evil works, demonstrate no saving faith and, therefore, no salvation. . .hence, damnation.

 

[Clare73]

No, it does not. But your doctrine throws out half of scripture to hang onto a harsh doctrine, that is only suggested by a few scriptures, these few scriptures can have dual meanings.

I have presented my Biblical demonstration (post #69).
It is now yours to address the Scriptures I have presented, which you did not do.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Joh 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

The sacrifice is universal, but not all men receive it.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

As I put in another post, I investigated the way Justin Marytr used the term foreknowledge (foreknown), he did not see it as God selecting or choosing who he would save, but God knowing that certain one would be evil, or good, but not at the choice of God.

In order to get some more context on

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), I have shown in other posts that they believed in genuine free will. But I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”

Through his understanding of the term forknown, we could write:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew [would believe in Him], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

It shows God knowing that there would be those who would believe and marking them out to be conformed to the image of His son.

 

[Clare73]

1) Philosophical free will is the power to make all moral choices, including the power to choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed at all times. Man does not have the free will of philosophy.

No, this is not biblical free will at all. Free will is the ability to see God, and His commands, accept them, and in doing so gain life. No one denies sin has a degree of power over man. Even Paul said he could delight in the law of God with his inner man. We all have this internal ability to accept or reject God.

Nor did I say it was.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I have presented my Biblical demonstration.
It is now yours to address the Scriptures I have presented, which you did not do.

2) Scripture is clear that the unregenerate man cannot obey God (Ro 8:6-8), for he cannot understand the things of God (1 Co 2:14), they are foolishness to him, he must have the Holy Spirit (new birth, Jn 3:5) to even see them.

Romans 6:8 does not say that man cannot obey God. It says that man has difficulty following the commandments. To prove this look at the following:

Paul states just before the scripture you mentioned:

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

The preceding passages show that the law of sin a death was:

Rom 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

Note Paul says the law is spiritual “law of the spirit”, but he “carnal”. Yet he says that “but what I hate, that I do” and

Rom 7:19-20 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

And again

Rom 7:21-22 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

So we see a premise, a person can will to do good but finds themselves doing evil. This shows that the will to do good is present. Man is not totally depraved, and blind. This ability to “will”, to choose internally, is what Jesus is talking about when He says:


John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

You will see that enlightenment or receiving the Holy Spirit, is not by God’s will alone, as you state, but rather comes as a result of us aligning ourselves with God’s will.

• We receive God’s commands
• We obey them
• Because of our obedience, God loves us
• God will manifest Himself to us

3) Scripture is clear that the new birth into sonship (Jn 1:12-13) is by sovereign will and act of the Holy Spirit, who is as unaccountable as the wind, and which has nothing to do with man's choice (Jn 3:6-8).

It is not the way at all, refer to John 14.


But you quote:

Joh 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


For a start it says as many as received Him – these ones were given the right to children of God. But it is still not the will of man that counts, as Jesus said:


Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able… Luke 13:27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'


Those who work iniquity, although they seek to enter can’t. Which again lines up with John 14. Our obedience or rebellion counts.

4) Scripture is clear that it is God who works in man both to will and to do (Php 2:13), that faith, salvation and obedience are the work of God within the disposition of man giving him to prefer the things of God which he then freely chooses, and God enables him to do.

Not true. Read John 14.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Mark Quayle said:
Read that in all versions. This one is pretty good: "6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." It might be useful to you to understand that a person speaking 4000 years ago did not assume the same things you take the Hebrew to mean.

Sin is painful to God. Cosmic Treason is a pretty good word for it. So yeah, there was sorrow and grief. At the cross there was a lot of sorrow and grief. Yet we have scriptural testimony that it was specifically predetermined to happen, and precisely in the way it did happen.

It is not that verse that counts, it is the next one, and yes, it is in all translations:

Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

God wished He had not created man, He regretted, this shows that the idea that God planned them to be evil is just not true. They would only be doing what He made them do.

 

[Clare73]

Romans 6:8 does not say that man cannot obey God.

In the Greek, in regard to the unregenerate, Ro 8:7-8 states: "Wherefore the mind of the flesh (is) enmity against God; for to the law of God it is not subject, neither indeed can it; and the (ones) being in flesh cannot to please God.

It says that man has difficulty following the commandments. To prove this look at the following:
Paul states just before the scripture you mentioned:
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
The preceding passages show that the law of sin a death was:
Rom 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
Note Paul says the law is spiritual “law of the spirit”, but he “carnal”. Yet he says that “but what I hate, that I do” and
Rom 7:19-20 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
And again

Rom 7:21-22 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
So we see a premise, a person can will to do good but finds themselves doing evil. This shows that the will to do good is present. Man is not totally depraved, and blind. This ability to “will”, to choose internally, is what Jesus is talking about when He says:

Paul was a devout Jew, not an unregenerate Gentile with no special revelation from God, as the Jews had; therefore, the will to please God was present in Paul. The ability to do so was not possible without the Spirit of Christ.

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
You will see that enlightenment or receiving the Holy Spirit, is not by God’s will alone, as you state, but rather comes as a result of us aligning ourselves with God’s will.

We receive God’s commands
We obey them
Because of our obedience, God loves us
God will manifest Himself to us.
It is not the way at all, refer to John 14.
But you quote:
Joh 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
For a start it says as many as received Him – these ones were given the right to children of God. But it is still not the will of man that counts, as Jesus said:
Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able… Luke 13:27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
Those who work iniquity, although they seek to enter can’t. Which again lines up with John 14. Our obedience or rebellion counts.
Not true. Read John 14.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is not that verse that counts, it is the next one, and yes, it is in all translations:

Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

God wished He had not created man, He regretted, this shows that the idea that God planned them to be evil is just not true. They would only be doing what He made them do.

As you wish. Truth is, that God is not like us. When he is sorry, it does not imply that he made a mistake, nor that anything happened that he had not intended to happen.

Your construction not only paints a less than omnipotent God, but a less than omniscient God, for God who knows all things, created anyway, precisely what would result in the very thing for which he says he was sorry. Are you now going to call him schizoid?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

In the Greek, in regard to the unregenerate, Ro 8:7-8 states: "Wherefore the mind of the flesh (is) enmity against God; for to the law of God it is not subject, neither indeed can it; and the (ones) being in flesh cannot to please God.


Paul was a devout Jew, not an unregenerate Gentile with no special revelation from God, as the Jews had; therefore, the will to please God was present in Paul. The ability to do so was not possible without the Spirit of Christ.

I see you ignore John 14. Read it for it is Christ's dialog on receiving the Holy Spirit.

 

[Clare73]

In the Greek, in regard to the unregenerate, Ro 8:7-8 states: "Wherefore the mind of the flesh (is) enmity against God; for to the law of God it is not subject, neither indeed can it; and the (ones) being in flesh cannot to please God.


Paul was a devout Jew, not an unregenerate Gentile with no special revelation from God, as the Jews had; therefore, the will to please God was present in Paul. The ability to do so was not possible without the Spirit of Christ.

2) Scripture is clear that the unregenerate man cannot obey God (Ro 8:6-8), for he cannot understand the things of God (1 Co 2:14), they are foolishness to him, he must have the Holy Spirit (new birth, Jn 3:5) to even see them.

I see you ignore John 14. Read it for it is Christ's dialog on receiving the Holy Spirit.

Are you ignoring Ro 8:7-8?

You have yet to deal with it.

Feel free to do so in the light of Jn 14.

Nor have you addressed 1 Co 2:14.

My Biblical demonstration (post #69) is still unaddressed in regards to Ro 8:6-8, 1 Co 2:14.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I see you ignore John 14. Read it for it is Christ's dialog on receiving the Holy Spirit.

Have you considered the difference between the original indwelling and the subsequent work of the Spirit? From what I can tell, you and @Clare73 are talking about two different things, there.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Are you ignoring Ro 8:7-8?

You have yet to deal with it.

Feel free to do so in the light of Jn 14.

Nor have you addressed 1 Co 2:14.

My Biblical demonstration (post #69) is still unaddressed in regards to Ro 8:6-8, 1 Co 2:14.

Neither of those scriptures proves anything. All they suggest is that the unregenerated man, or a man with a focus on the flesh, and the action of such a one, can not please God. They do not show man "can not respond to God by their own choosing, after being exposed to the gospel".

We see it is God's will that "all" have a chance of salvation.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

We do see that Paul speaking of the law of sin and death, states:

Rom 7:14-22 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

We see this shows the unregenerated Jew or Gentile when exposed to the command of God, can agree with it, or delight in it, but due to the weakness of the flesh can not overcome it.

Now John 14.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

The order of receiving the Holy Spirit is always obeying God, and then receiving. See the a) obey, and b) receive in the following:

a) If you love Me, keep My commandments. b) And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever

a) He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. b) And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

a) If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; b) and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

If you love Me, keep My commandments. (don't currently have the Holy Spirit) And I will pray the Father (action on Jesus's part), and He will give you another Helper (receive the helper after obedience)

He who has My commandments and keeps them, (not enlightened by the Holy Spirit but is seeking to please God) it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father (action on God's part), and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. (Holy Spirit received)

As Paul said the unregenerated man "can" seek to please God. Can delight in God's law, but struggle to do it rightly. The person who hears God's commands, and tries to keep them, will be saved. The one who hears and rejects them will be damned.

As we see in Job, God reveals His word, but it is our choice what we do with it.

The whole Bible is full of commands God asks us to obey, He is not asking us to do something impossible.

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

 

[Clare73]

Neither of those scriptures proves anything.

Then you do not understand them. . .and therein is our difference.

All they suggest is that the unregenerated man, or a man with a focus on the flesh,

The unregenerate (no rebirth) man, the man without the Spirit (Ro 8:5-6, 1Co 2:14), is not just "focused on the flesh," he is not born again.
He is still condemned (Ro 5:18).

and the action of such a one, can not please God.

But is faith not pleasing to God? . . .if so, then the unregenerated man cannot have faith, because he cannot please God.
Is submitting to God's law not pleasing to God? . . .if so, then he cannot submit to God's law, just as it is stated, "nor can he do so." (Ro 8:7).
Is "responding to God by their own choosing" not pleasing to God? . . .if so, then he cannot respond to God because he cannot please God.

The word of God denies what you affirm; i.e., that the unregenerated man can choose to please God.

They do not show man "can not respond to God by their own choosing, after being exposed to the gospel".

I don' t see how it could be any clearer.

"The man without the Spirit (unregenerate) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God (i.e., the gospel), for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually (enabled by the Holy Spirit) discerned." (1 Co 2:14)

No one can even see the kingdom of God (gospel) unless he is born again (Jn 3:5).
The rebirth is not by man's decision/choice, but by sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, whose act is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn :6-8).

The issue here is not Biblical misunderstanding, it is Biblical non-understanding of (or refusal to accept) what the Scriptures plainly present.
It is failure to reconcile what one sees as contradictory, and instead to set the Scriptures against themselves; e.g., Ro 8:6-8, 1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:5 against Jn 14, etc.

We see it is God's will that "all" have a chance of salvation.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

We do see that Paul speaking of the law of sin and death, states:

Rom 7:14-22 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

We see this shows the unregenerated Jew or Gentile when exposed to the command of God, can agree with it, or delight in it, but due to the weakness of the flesh can not overcome it.

Now John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

In Jn 14, Jesus was not speaking to unbelieving Gentiles, he was speaking to believing Jews who sought to please God but could not do so by law keeping.

The order of receiving the Holy Spirit is always obeying God, and then receiving. See the a) obey, and b) receive in the following:
a) If you love Me, keep My commandments. b) And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever
a) He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. b) And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
a) If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; b) and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
If you love Me, keep My commandments. (don't currently have the Holy Spirit) And I will pray the Father (action on Jesus's part), and He will give you another Helper (receive the helper after obedience)
He who has My commandments and keeps them, (not enlightened by the Holy Spirit but is seeking to please God) it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father (action on God's part), and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. (Holy Spirit received)

As Paul said the unregenerated man "can" seek to please God. Can delight in God's law, but struggle to do it rightly.

Paul was not an unbelieving Gentile when he wrote that. He was a Jew, of the people of God, who wanted to please God but, without the new birth by faith in Jesus Christ, could not do so by keeping the law perfectly (Ro 7:24-25).

The person who hears God's commands, and tries to keep them, will be saved. The one who hears and rejects them will be damned.

No one can do that without the Holy Spirit (1 Co 2:14), for he can't even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (Jn 3:5), which rebirth is by sovereign act of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:6-8).

As we see in Job, God reveals His word, but it is our choice what we do with it.

The whole Bible is full of commands God asks us to obey, He is not asking us to do something impossible.

Only the people of God have the power to obey the commands of God.
Those without the Holy Spirit cannot please God; i.e., cannot obey him (Ro 8:7-8).

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

I don't think we can proceed with a discussion until you reconcile such things as Ro 8:6-8, 1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:5 with Jn 14, etc., being true to the words and context of all of them.

Setting Scripture against itself is not an option with me.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

In Jn 14, Jesus was not speaking to unbelieving Gentiles, he was speaking to believing Jews who sought to please God but could not do so by law keeping.


Paul was not an unbelieving Gentile when he wrote that. He was a Jew, of the people of God, who wanted to please God but, without the new birth by faith in Jesus Christ, could not do so by keeping the law perfectly (Ro 7:24-25).

What is all this about Paul being a Jew and not a gentile? It makes no difference to the conversation at all.

What I was demonstrating was an "unregenerated" Jew or Gentile, could still "will" to do good. The direction they point their will in can be toward God. The Calvinistic idea that they are totally depraved and unable to even, think, or do good, is insane. Although sold under sin Paul can still "will" to do good. The Gentiles still have this same "will".

Rom 7:14-22 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Then John 14, which IS a discourse on receiving the Holy Spirit equally applies to Jew or Gentile.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

In Jn 14, Jesus was not speaking to unbelieving Gentiles, he was speaking to believing Jews who sought to please God but could not do so by law keeping.

If I was to believe you John 14 would be written:

" you can't love Me, or keep My commandments. So I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever...He who has My commandments and can't keep them, it is he who hates me. And he who hates Me will be randomly chosen by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

Read it as it is written.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I don't think we can proceed with a discussion until you reconcile such things as Ro 8:6-8, 1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:5 with Jn 14, etc., being true to the words and context of all of them.

Rather than give me some scriptures that have clear other meanings. You explain why your version of God does not support the following.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

 

[Clare73]

What is all this about Paul being a Jew and not a gentile? It makes no difference to the conversation at all.

What I was demonstrating was an "unregenerated" Jew or Gentile, could still "will" to do good.
The direction they point their will in can be toward God. The Calvinistic idea that they are totally depraved and unable to even, think, or do good, is insane. Although sold under sin Paul can still "will" to do good. The Gentiles still have this same "will".

You used a practicing Jew, not a Gentile, for your demonstration of an unregenerate will to obey God.
You did not address and deal with Ro 8:6-8, 1Co 2:14, Jn 3:5 nor Jn 3:6-8.

The direction they point their will in can be toward God. The Calvinistic idea that they are totally depraved and unable to even, think, or do good, is insane. Although sold under sin Paul can still "will" to do good. The Gentiles still have this same "will".

Rom 7:14-22 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Then John 14, which IS a discourse on receiving the Holy Spirit equally applies to Jew or Gentile.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.



If I was to believe you John 14 would be written:

" you can't love Me, or keep My commandments. So I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever...He who has My commandments and can't keep them, it is he who hates me. And he who hates Me will be randomly chosen by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

Read it as it is written.

 

[Clare73]

Rather than give me some scriptures that have clear other meanings. You explain why your version of God does not support the following.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Great response!

Will do when I get back. . .have to run an errand.

 

[Clare73]

Great response!

Will do when I get back. . .have to run an errand.

Rather than give me some scriptures that have clear other meanings. You explain why your version of God does not support the following.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

I did not say it did not support 1 Ti 2:4-6, but rather it does not support your interpretation of 1 Ti 2:4-6, which contains a word with two meanings, which makes the difference between its conflict and its agreement with Ro 8:6-8, 1Co 2:14, Jn 3:5 and Jn 3:6-8.

So, since
1) Scripture does not contradict itself,
2) Ro 8:6-8, 1Co 2:14, Jn 3:5 and Jn 3:6-8 allow for no leeway in their declarative statements of the complete spiritual depravity and inability of man (Jn 6:65),
3) divine election of some is a constant theme in Paul's letters (Ro 8:29-30, 9:6-26, 11:5, 7, 28, 16:13; Col 3:12; 1Th 1:4, 2Th 2:13; Tit 11), 4) and "all" has two meanings: a) all men without exception (everyone), b) all men without distinction (includes Gentiles as well as Jews),

1 Ti 2:4-6 means that God desires all men; i.e., b) Gentiles as well as Jews, to be saved, and he gave himself as a ransom for all men; i.e., b) Gentiles as well as Jews.

This interpretation of "all"
is in agreement with all the texts above under consideration,
reconciles a seeming difference among the texts, and
is in agreement with all of the NT understood in the light of all of the NT.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You used a practicing Jew, not a Gentile, for your demonstration of an unregenerate will to obey God.
You did not address and deal with Ro 8:6-8, 1Co 2:14, Jn 3:5 nor Jn 3:6-8.

But you are glossing over the issue, your doctrine states that man is "totally depraved", not just Gentiles but Jews. Paul's discourse shows that a "so called" totally depraved Jew can delight in God's law, but the will to perform it he can not find.

Rom 7:14-22 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Questions for you:

a) Are Jews Totally Depraved according to your doctrine?
b) Did Paul have the will to do good? Was his will intact?

And for the sake of my sanity, stop ignoring John 14. It is clearly stating our will to follow God's commands determines our, salvation, and enlightenment.

John 14:15-24 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

So whose scriptures are really contradictory, yours or mine?

I also copy this from another post, regarding the meaning of the "foreknow" scriptures, and how it was used by the early church. It shows that foreknowledge is often "looking ahead to an event you perceive will take place", not "knowing definitely at the time that a future event will occur".

In order to get some context on

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), I have shown in other posts that they believed in genuine free will. But I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.



Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’



We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”



Other examples of the words usage are seen below, we see in these examples it is used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”


We see from the first usage regarding angels and men that it does not mean selected to be righteous, or evil before creation, but rather God knew some would be unchangeably wicked, and some righteous before creation. In that context, the following could be understood as:


Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation God knew there would be those who would believe, He at creation decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that he marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.