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Free Will, Predeterminism, and Predestination

FutureAndAHope

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So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.
I would like to suggest that God does not "know" the personal outcome of His creation. But He has put constraints on what will happen.


Genesis 6-56 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

God can not regret what He has planned, or known. Since God regretted making man, it shows God did not plan or know beforehand how His creatures would react.

This also shows that man has free will.

Yet God has put constraints or boundaries on what each of us can do. As seen in Acts:

Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

I believe we live in a system of free will, with constraints or boundaries. God writes our stories, but allows us choices that determine the outcome.

There is nothing in the bible that says God knows every choice man will make, only he knows the End from the Beginning, a thing that can be done in a constrained free will system.
 
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seeker2122

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I would like to suggest that God does not "know" the personal outcome of His creation. But He has put constraints on what will happen.
Hmm. I personally believe God knows and must know the personal outcome of His creation. Here's an example: the difference between God and His creation versus a programmer/designer and his product is that one is God and the other is not. God can create/program a software universe and put free will in it that universe, yet God would still know what each creation is going to free will. A programmer can create an AI being in an AI universe and while there would be boundaries and constraints that he/she can know of, they wouldn't know the very details of each free will decision being made by the AI characters....the programmer would only know the outcome and boundaries/constraints of the software.

Therefore, I do not believe God is just a programmer.

Genesis 6-56 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

God can not regret what He has planned, or known. Since God regretted making man, it shows God did not plan or know beforehand how His creatures would react.

Good point. This is what I was asking in another thread about "If God already knew the outcome of things, why would he be angry?" Verses like this where it reads like God changed his mind probably actually doesn't mean that. God can't be surprised and change his mind. If he could, that would mean that mankind has some ability outside the power and knowledge of God to affect him and affect change in Him. This would mean God is not truly God Almighty but just a mere deity and sub-god who can be easily influenced and manipulated. This would also go against the doctrine of God's Asceity (I just learned this recently thanks to Mark!). The same verse in 1 Samuel when God regretted making Saul King. I don't think it actually means that God made a mistake in anointing Saul and then later regretted it as if God didn't know. I think it just means figurative speech as in God was sad/filled with disappointment that Saul didn't make better free will choices to inherit what God had planned to give him but then again...God already knew this was going to happen so He let it/caused it to happen so it can bring glory to Him (meaning, it would be a teaching point for the masses in the future in the book we call the Bible).

This also shows that man has free will.

Yet God has put constraints or boundaries on what each of us can do. As seen in Acts:

Act 17:26-27 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

I believe we live in a system of free will, with constraints or boundaries. God writes our stories, but allows us choices that determine the outcome.
Very interesting. I sort of believed this as well. I asked and questioned this a lot. So you are saying that we can determine our own personal outcomes/fates but no matter what choices we make, we cannot effectually change the outcome of God's entire master plan?

This would then support the doctrine of God's Asceity which means that God doesn't need you and me. He doesn't need any of us to complete his will. His will will always succeed and do what it was intended to do even if we make decisions off-script. In other words, there is nothing man can do with his free will that can alter or change the ultimate plans of God.

There is nothing in the bible that says God knows every choice man will make, only he knows the End from the Beginning, a thing that can be done in a constrained free will system.

If He doesn't know every choice we will make, then in some strange way, man actually has the ability to conceal and hide from God some knowledge and power (When God said to Adam and Eve "where are you?" in the Garden, did that mean God actually did not know where they were because they hid from him? No He always knew where they were but sin had entered and changed their nature so God was asking "where are you?" as in "what happened or what did you do to yourselves because I detect a change in your nature and sin has entered the fold"). Even if it is small power we have, we can actually do something that God has no ability to know about? I find this hard to believe we'd have any power over God to surprise Him. But it does raise an interesting question. In the story of the faith of the centurion, Jesus was "amazed" or "marveled" at the faith of the centurion. The greek word is I believe thamauzo which means marvel. It sounds as if though Jesus was surprised at that man's faith because he had never seen anyone else including his own disciples display that much faith.

Now the question begs, did Jesus actually not know and was genuinely surprised by the faith of the centurion or did Jesus still know but he was "pleased" by the response and it was only written as if Jesus was amazed in surprise? This might be related to if you are a believer of the bible to be literal or figurative? Most believers do not take the bible as literal. It is widely understood that the Bible uses a lot of figurative speech, metaphors, parables, etc. If you take things literally, I think one can run into a lot of confusion and contradictions. If I am not mistaken, I believe muslims use this method to criticize Christians and the bible because they attack the literal errors or contradictions the bible seems to make (but since the bible is not literal, but the message, these arguments cannot bring down the bible or christianity).
 
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crixus

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That's a notion of man. . .where in Scripture do we find that man must, or does, have free will?

Men are possessed of a limited free will, in that they do not have the power to choose (execute) all moral choices; e.g., man cannot choose to be sinless, to never sin in thought, word or deed.

Rather, man has free will in the Biblical sense: the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what he prefers.

But man's will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by his disposition; i.e., what he likes, dislikes.
God operates in man's disposition, giving him to prefer his will, and man then "willingly and freely chooses, without external force or constraint, what he prefers."

God does not violate man's free will, God uses man's free will to accomplish his purposes.

So predestination and predetermination do not mean "we don't really have free will" in the Biblical sense.
That's a great explanation. And I agree. :oldthumbsup:
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Very interesting. I sort of believed this as well. I asked and questioned this a lot. So you are saying that we can determine our own personal outcomes/fates but no matter what choices we make, we cannot effectually change the outcome of God's entire master plan?

Yes, this is what I am suggesting. God's master plan can not be influenced by our free will choices.



I find this hard to believe we'd have any power over God to surprise Him. But it does raise an interesting question. In the story of the faith of the centurion, Jesus was "amazed" or "marveled" at the faith of the centurion. The greek word is I believe thamauzo which means marvel. It sounds as if though Jesus was surprised at that man's faith because he had never seen anyone else including his own disciples display that much faith.

If you read the following from one of the Earliest Church Fathers, you will see they not only believed in free will but free will regarding faith.

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies (A.D. 120-202) - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So?

That conclusion--Scripture requires free will to be guilty of sin--is based on an unproven assumption of man.
That is nowhere stated nor presented in Scripture.
That we are guilty is everywhere presented, but that we are guilty because of free will is nowhere stated, that is a non-Biblical overlay on Scripture to agree with man's assumption.

We are guilty of the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18), with which we had nothing to do.
We are likewise acquitted with the righteousness of Christ, with which we also had nothing to do,
free will not-with-standing in either case.
It is not an unproven assumption of man, it is purely scripturally based. There are not really very many scriptures that suggest a "fixedness" to life. The bulk of scripture suggests that man chooses, and is accountable for his/her own actions. The following scripture in Job shows this clearly:

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Jesus also made it clear that salvation is the result of our choices. Enlightenment comes as a "result" of our choosing, damnation also.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

You have see from that scripture, how blindness occurs, it occurs as a result of our actions. Manifestation likewise.

Some other examples from scripture:

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Rom 2:4-11 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.


Not only does scripture support free will, so to do all of the Early Church Fathers, who all believe in genuine not limited free will.

Justin Martyr (110-165) - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus (120-202) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
 
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This "problem" was discussed at length by the theologians of the early middle-ages.

The philosopher Boethius solved it in his "Consolation of Philosophy". If I remember correctly, the issue with saying God knows that is going to happen in the future is that you are ascribing a temporal quality to God

God has no "future" or past. He views creation as everything happening instantly (out of time).He isn't peering through some crystal ball to see what you will do. In an instant, everything unfolds
 
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FutureAndAHope

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This "problem" was discussed at length by the theologians of the early middle-ages.

The philosopher Boethius solved it in his "Consolation of Philosophy". If I remember correctly, the issue with saying God knows that is going to happen in the future is that you are ascribing a temporal quality to God

God has no "future" or past. He views creation as everything happening instantly (out of time).He isn't peering through some crystal ball to see what you will do. In an instant, everything unfolds
When thinking over these issues, that was a theory I played with, but it would need a double injection. Creation must play out once, in order for God to know the outcome. Then to speak of the outcome he would need to inject back into creation His knowledge. In a human sense, this is impossible, but who knows with God?

There are times God did not know the outcome, as here:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

This suggests that the LORD would not have initiated the creation of man, had He known how they would respond. It is also a strong indicator that no matter how God's foreknowledge works man still has free will.
 
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This "problem" was discussed at length by the theologians of the early middle-ages.

The philosopher Boethius solved it in his "Consolation of Philosophy". If I remember correctly, the issue with saying God knows that is going to happen in the future is that you are ascribing a temporal quality to God

God has no "future" or past. He views creation as everything happening instantly (out of time).He isn't peering through some crystal ball to see what you will do. In an instant, everything unfolds
Another way to look at things is that God is a planner. He does not have knowledge of the future, in the same sense as we can not know the future. But he intimately plans out our lives with events for which we choose the outcome. We know that God is not the author of sin, so that is something that man does.

This theory is backed up by visions a woman had of heaven after spending a prolonged time in prayer and fasting (not that I believe every vision). She saw books in which God authored our futures, and had a story written down, but she said that our choices impact the stories. That the stories were interconnected, and what we do would affect other storylines. But this was all possible due to God's huge understanding.
 
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Clare73

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That conclusion (Scripture requires free will to be guilty of sin) is based on an unproven assumption of man.
That is nowhere stated nor presented in Scripture.
That we are guilty is everywhere presented, but that we are guilty because of free will is nowhere stated, that is a non-Biblical overlay on Scripture to agree with man's assumption.
We are guilty of the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18), with which we had nothing to do.
We are imputed with the righteousness of Christ
(Ro 4:1-11), as was Abraham (Ge 15:6), with which we also had nothing to do,
free will not-with-standing in either case.
It is not an unproven assumption of man, it is purely scripturally based. There are not really very many scriptures that suggest a "fixedness" to life.
But Scripture does not contradict itself. . .if there are any Scriptures that present a "fixedness" to life, they must be believed and dealt with.
The bulk of scripture suggests that man chooses, and is accountable for his/her own actions. The following scripture in Job shows this clearly:
The truth of Scriptures is not determined by comparing the number of times something is stated, for if it is stated at all, it is true.
Likewise, NT doctrine is found in the NT, and when correctly understood does not conflict with the OT.

1) Philosophical free will is the power to make all moral choices, including the power to choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed at all times. Man does not have the free will of philosophy.
Man has the free will presented in the Bible, the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers, likes.
However, fallen man prefers self and its desires.
Only the regenerate man has the power to actually prefer God's will over his own.

2) Scripture is clear that the unregenerate man cannot obey God (Ro 8:6-8), for he cannot understand the things of God (1 Co 2:14), they are foolishness to him, he must have the Holy Spirit (new birth, Jn 3:5) to even see them.

3) Scripture is clear that the new birth into sonship (Jn 1:12-13) is by sovereign will and act of the Holy Spirit, who is as unaccountable as the wind, and which has nothing to do with man's choice (Jn 3:6-8).

4) Scripture is clear that it is God who works in man both to will and to do (Php 2:13), that faith, salvation and obedience are the work of God within the disposition of man giving him to prefer the things of God which he then freely chooses, and God enables him to do.
Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Jesus also made it clear that salvation is the result of our choices. Enlightenment comes as a "result" of our choosing, damnation also.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

You have see from that scripture, how blindness occurs, it occurs as a result of our actions. Manifestation likewise.

Some other examples from scripture:

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Rom 2:4-11 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.


Not only does scripture support free will, so to do all of the Early Church Fathers, who all believe in genuine not limited free will.

Justin Martyr (110-165) - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Irenaeus (120-202) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
 
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Clare73

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Another way to look at things is that God is a planner. He does not have knowledge of the future, in the same sense as we can not know the future. But he intimately plans out our lives with events for which we choose the outcome. We know that God is not the author of sin, so that is something that man does.

This theory is backed up by visions a woman had of heaven after spending a prolonged time in prayer and fasting (not that I believe every vision). She saw books in which God authored our futures, and had a story written down, but she said that our choices impact the stories. That the stories were interconnected, and what we do would affect other storylines. But this was all possible due to God's huge understanding.
Divine foreknowledge (Gr: prognosis) is God knowing in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed from before the foundations of the world that it shall happen. . ."Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Ac 15:18).
God knows who is going to be saved because from before the foundations of the world he decreed that they would be saved (Ro 8:29-30).
 
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Carl Emerson

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@Clare73

I have a friend who has carried this perspective through into Christian life and ended up with a totally passive approach to decision making.

So the distinction between fore-choosing salvation and spiritual fruitfulness needs to be made.

Scriptural support for mans will in the latter would be welcome.

Frankly I cant see how judgement for eternal reward works unless the limited freewill of man is involved and obedience is recognised.
 
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Mark Quayle

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God can not regret what He has planned, or known. Since God regretted making man, it shows God did not plan or know beforehand how His creatures would react.
Read that in all versions. This one is pretty good: "6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." It might be useful to you to understand that a person speaking 4000 years ago did not assume the same things you take the Hebrew to mean.

Sin is painful to God. Cosmic Treason is a pretty good word for it. So yeah, there was sorrow and grief. At the cross there was a lot of sorrow and grief. Yet we have scriptural testimony that it was specifically predetermined to happen, and precisely in the way it did happen.
I believe we live in a system of free will, with constraints or boundaries. God writes our stories, but allows us choices that determine the outcome.
So why call it "free will"? Why not just real will, real choices? If God has written our stories, what makes our choices any less predetermined than anything else is? Of course our choices determine the outcome! That doesn't mean that our choices are not predetermined, nor that the outcomes are not also predetermined.
There is nothing in the bible that says God knows every choice man will make, only he knows the End from the Beginning, a thing that can be done in a constrained free will system.
There is quite a bit of Scripture: Proverbs 16:9 "A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."

Your logic is faulty. Ignoring for the moment the attribute of omnipotence: If God is God, he is (at least) omniscient. Thus, he knows absolutely everything. And the fact that he created anyway, shows he intended all things.
 
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Halbhh

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Read that in all versions. This one is pretty good: "6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." It might be useful to you to understand that a person speaking 4000 years ago did not assume the same things you take the Hebrew to mean.

Sin is painful to God. Cosmic Treason is a pretty good word for it. So yeah, there was sorrow and grief. At the cross there was a lot of sorrow and grief. Yet we have scriptural testimony that it was specifically predetermined to happen, and precisely in the way it did happen.
If you could offer where Genesis 6:5-11 was specifically predetermined to happen according to "scriptural testimony" as being planned ahead to happen. God certainly plans ahead many things to happen, but a passage where Genesis 6:5-11 being planned to happen is what you seemed to have suggested.

If you meant only that God knew that humans would sin and need a way to repentance, and need a Redeemer, that's not the same of course, as it's general, instead of particular to one particular event.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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But Scripture does not contradict itself. . .if there are any Scriptures that present a "fixedness" to life, they must be believed and dealt with.
No, it does not. But your doctrine throws out half of scripture to hang onto a harsh doctrine, that is only suggested by a few scriptures, these few scriptures can have dual meanings.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Joh 3:16-17 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

The sacrifice is universal, but not all men receive it.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

As I put in another post, I investigated the way Justin Marytr used the term foreknowledge (foreknown), he did not see it as God selecting or choosing who he would save, but God knowing that certain one would be evil, or good, but not at the choice of God.

In order to get some more context on

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers (within 150 years of Christ), I have shown in other posts that they believed in genuine free will. But I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”

Through his understanding of the term forknown, we could write:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew [would believe in Him], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

It shows God knowing that there would be those who would believe and marking them out to be conformed to the image of His son.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Hmmm... I believe that both options can be true at the same time: that God sits in a plane where things can be predestined/predetermined according to him and that multiple possibilities can exist independent of him. It's kind of like the trinity, where Jesus can be the holy spirit, God, and yet be the son of God as well. Trying to understand God is like a 2D creature trying to understand 3D. Same for a 3D creature (us) trying to understand 4D (read: Flatland - Wikipedia). I also agree with OP's view of God being more of an observant rather than an interventionist. Most US founding fathers had this exact diestic view of christianity.
Deism is an easy one, demanding little of anyone but submission as a lower being to the level of "not as high a being as God [once was]". Deism allows itself to think of God as more or less irrelevant. In some ways, I consider deism as worse than atheism, because it claims to know of God, but teaches contrary to omnipotence. I've had some very good conversations with certain Atheists, who, while they deny God exists, they admit that IF God exists, he is at least certain things —first cause, omnipotent, and that "in him we live and move and have our being" makes sense— if he exists, he is both transcendent and immanent. But they don't like him very much.

Anyhow, the fact of his position as The Omnipotent, which means also, First Cause, and Self-Existent, necessarily implies that every fact, every detail, is caused, and that there is no cause from outside of him that can influence him, unless he caused it to do so. (Witness, putting Moses "in the gap" between him and the rebellious Children of Israel to reason with him, and turn his wrath aside so that he would not destroy them)*. That is to say, he does not change, while all things he creates do change. Thus also, what he has made is not controlled by anything that did not also come from him by way of causation. Yet, all things are necessarily explicitly caused —none come about by mere chance.

*Note: There is a huge fact, concerning omnipotence, and bearing implications about all sorts of subjects concerning God and his dealings with his creation, that is to me both hilarious (by way of irony) and amazing, to me. Omnipotence does not always behave according to the "shiny lights" and "flash banging" and spectacular power that we children want to see it do. It accomplishes the 'impossible' by the most mundane means, and it "skates so close to disaster" that we want to say God is unjust, and uncaring, and apparently semi-helpless in the face of free will. We are tempted to say, "God is doing this all wrong!" We look for reasons to excuse him from the appearance of evil. The example of Christ dying on the cross is a beautiful picture of this nature of God; Christ living without sin, by dependence on the Father, just as we should, demonstrates that power of God, instead of Christ living by his own power as God himself.

The atheist objects, "Why didn't Omnipotent God just create the finished product at once? Why go through all this 6,000 (or 15 billion, or whatever) years of suffering and pain?" To me, Omnipotent God implies no relation to time passage, so I say, He DID! He spoke it into accomplished fact, though from our point of view, it is taking a long, outrageously hard, time.

I say, "Naturalism posits a universe that behaves exactly as if God had created it."
 
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Mark Quayle

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If you could offer where Genesis 6:5-11 was specifically predetermined to happen according to "scriptural testimony" as being planned ahead to happen. God certainly plans ahead many things to happen, but a passage where Genesis 6:5-11 being planned to happen is what you seemed to have suggested.

If you meant only that God knew that humans would sin and need a way to repentance, and need a Redeemer, that's not the same of course, as it's general, instead of particular to one particular event.
If you could offer where Genesis 6:5-11 specifically came about by mere chance, I'd like to see it. Logically, God's predetermination is universal, and therefore specific, and applicable across the board to all Scripture. Chance is not. And, by the way, that by no means denies Real Choice by the creature.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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1) Philosophical free will is the power to make all moral choices, including the power to choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed at all times. Man does not have the free will of philosophy.
No, this is not biblical free will at all. Free will is the ability to see God, and His commands, accept them, and in doing so gain life. No one denies sin has a degree of power over man. Even Paul said he could delight in the law of God with his inner man. We all have this internal ability to accept or reject God.

Rom 7:21-24 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

You said that man can not obey God. A load of rubbish, Jesus said it is a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit, sure His primary command is to have faith in Jesus, but I believe Jesus means more than that, our direction should be toward God and learning His ways.

Joh 14:15-25 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.

It is not about legalistically following commandments, but knowing God's ways, and following them.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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If you could offer where Genesis 6:5-11 specifically came about by mere chance, I'd like to see it. Logically, God's predetermination is universal, and therefore specific, and applicable across the board to all Scripture. Chance is not. And, by the way, that by no means denies Real Choice by the creature.
You say that, but it is not supported by scripture. Genesis 6:5-11 is an example of free will in motion, and God regrets that he had made man. There may be a degree of "fixedness", to every man's story, but that does not negate free will. For God to regret making man, he had to have allowed for free will. There is no other valid explanation. God did not plan the wickendness. If the way God works is to select, 1 for salvation, and 2 not. Why would God care if man sinned he would be punished fittingly anyway. God regretted making man for he did not turn out how God had hoped. That is scripture. Where is predetermination universal?
 
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Halbhh

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If you could offer where Genesis 6:5-11 specifically came about by mere chance, I'd like to see it. Logically, God's predetermination is universal, and therefore specific, and applicable across the board to all Scripture. Chance is not. And, by the way, that by no means denies Real Choice by the creature.
It certainly did not come about by 'mere chance' -- but by the sinful choices of many over time, gradually spiraling downwards into a worse and worse level of total violence and sin so that not even a bit of kindness or love was around finally, except in Noah's family.

The only way to resolve the debates about totally fated/doomed predestination of (all) individuals, without any choices at all on their part -- vs free will...in a way that will truly convince someone that needs a lot of convincing to get a more complete view than a simplified doctrine....

Is really by just reading the Bible through fully, the entirety of it. This helps us go past the doctrine simplifications and get the fullness and completeness.

(which isn't hard nor is it tedious (not at all!), and is only about 60-70 hours of reading at an average pace)
 
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Mark Quayle

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Yes - I agree with your summary as to Salvation.

When it comes to individual eternal reward limited free will plays a part.
Agreed, depending on what "free will" means, there. NOTHING can happen apart from God's causation. His decree establishes our very existence, and all fact subsequent to his decree. His decree ESTABLISHES free will, whatever it really is, if it really is, and that, in EVERY DETAIL.
 
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