Free will in scripture

[Athanasias]

For traditional Christians who hold to the deuterocanonical books of the bible these verses obviously teach free will.

11] Do not say, "Because of the Lord I left the right way";
for he will not do what he hates.
[12] Do not say, "It was he who led me astray";
for he had no need of a sinful man.
[13] The Lord hates all abominations,
and they are not loved by those who fear him.
[14] It was he who created man in the beginning,
and he left him in the power of his own inclination.
[15] If you will, you can keep the commandments,
and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
[16] He has placed before you fire and water:
stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.
[17] Before a man are life and death,
and whichever he chooses will be given to him.
[18] For great is the wisdom of the Lord;
he is mighty in power and sees everything;
[19] his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every deed of man.
[20] He has not commanded any one to be ungodly,
and he has not given any one permission to sin.(Sirach 15:11-20)

 

[bcbsr]

For traditional Christians who hold to the deuterocanonical books of the bible these verses obviously teach free will.

11] Do not say, "Because of the Lord I left the right way";
for he will not do what he hates.
[12] Do not say, "It was he who led me astray";
for he had no need of a sinful man.
[13] The Lord hates all abominations,
and they are not loved by those who fear him.
[14] It was he who created man in the beginning,
and he left him in the power of his own inclination.
[15] If you will, you can keep the commandments,
and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
[16] He has placed before you fire and water:
stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.
[17] Before a man are life and death,
and whichever he chooses will be given to him.
[18] For great is the wisdom of the Lord;
he is mighty in power and sees everything;
[19] his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every deed of man.
[20] He has not commanded any one to be ungodly,
and he has not given any one permission to sin.(Sirach 15:11-20)

Actually, as I see it, even command God gave in scripture implies free will. But that's not going to convince the anti-free will fatalists.

 

[Athanasias]

Actually, as I see it, even command God gave in scripture implies free will. But that's not going to convince the anti-free will fatalists.

your probably right on that!

 

[Jenniferdiana]

God is blameless. Free will leaves us without an excuse. Free will shall leave no one with an excuse. Free will is God giving us the the freedom to choose, he leaves us with the choice to make its up to us who we will choose or not. or whose side we choose to be on or not. Its our choice. and i think its a fair game.

 

[JIMINZ]

For traditional Christians who hold to the deuterocanonical books of the bible these verses obviously teach free will.

.
I think it's the Deuterocanonical Books which Traditional Christians do NOT hold to?

Oh, and your right the Bible does not teach Free Will, so yes, in order to back up such a claim you would have to go to the Deuterocanocail Books.

That is why they are called the Deuterocanical Books, because they are not in the Canon of Scripture.

Deuterocanical means a second canon.

 

[Doug Melven]

Anti-freewill people will agree with all of those Scriptures and then they will tell you that we cannot choose good because they say there is nothing good in us. God must choose us they say.

But I believe this is where John 3:16 comes in.
God gave His Son so we could make a choice.

 

[PloverWing]

I think it's the Deuterocanonical Books which Traditional Christians do NOT hold to?

Catholic and Orthodox Christians value tradition very highly, and they include the deuterocanonical books in the canon. So, not all Traditional Christians include Sirach in the canon, but many do.

 

[HTacianas]

.
I think it's the Deuterocanonical Books which Traditional Christians do NOT hold to?

Oh, and your right the Bible does not teach Free Will, so yes, in order to back up such a claim you would have to go to the Deuterocanocail Books.

That is why they are called the Deuterocanical Books, because they are not in the Canon of Scripture.

Deuterocanical means a second canon.

The "deuterocanonical" books have always been part of Christian scripture.

As far as the bible teaching free will, did the Israelites create the golden calf of their own free will or was it something else that caused them to do it?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Once again, would everyone please be aware of where they are posting - Traditional Theology- and read the SOP if you have not done so. I don't want to see folks getting in trouble.

This is a non-debate forum and it is expressly against the rules to try to prove Traditional Christianity to be in error.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Doug Melven]

As far as the bible teaching free will, did the Israelites create the golden calf of their own free will or was it something else that caused them to do it?

That something else would be there own fleshly desires.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Catholic and Orthodox Christians value tradition very highly, and they include the deuterocanonical books in the canon. So, not all Traditional Christians include Sirach in the canon, but many do.

In the most recent publication of the Apocrypha by Lutheran Church Canada and Lutheran Church Missouri Synod; it is included. (on sale for a great price right now: https://www.cph.org/p-19305-the-apocrypha-the-lutheran-edition-with-notes.aspx). The whole of Scripture speaks to the doctrine of Free Will; right from the fall in the garden.

 

[JIMINZ]

The "deuterocanonical" books have always been part of Christian scripture.

As far as the bible teaching free will, did the Israelites create the golden calf of their own free will or was it something else that caused them to do it?

.
Now if your talking about the Bible Catholics, and the Orthodox read then I would have to agree, it's in their Bibles.

But these books which you guys place so much stock in do not appear in the KJV, or many other Protestant versions.

So we really can't say they..... The "deuterocanonical" books have always been part of Christian scripture. Can we?

Sorry, but what the Israelite's did is not Teaching, they chose to rebel against God.

Do you understand the term DOMAIN?

What the Israelite's did, was a demonstration of that Domain, but it cannot be taken for Free Will.

Because I chose to put on white socks this morning doesn't demonstrate Free Will either, nor does what I chose to eat tonight, and if someone asks me to chose this day what I am going to do then, nope that doesn't do it either.

 

[HTacianas]

.
Now if your talking about the Bible Catholics, and the Orthodox read then I would have to agree, it's in their Bibles.

But these books which you guys place so much stock in do not appear in the KJV, or many other Protestant versions.

So we really can't say they..... The "deuterocanonical" books have always been part of Christian scripture. Can we?

Sorry, but what the Israelite's did is not Teaching, they chose to rebel against God.

Do you understand the term DOMAIN?

What the Israelite's did, was a demonstration of that Domain, but it cannot be taken for Free Will.

Because I chose to put on white socks this morning doesn't demonstrate Free Will either, nor does what I chose to eat tonight, and if someone asks me to chose this day what I am going to do then, nope that doesn't do it either.

The original Christian canon contains the deutercanonical books. They were only removed from the KJV around 1850 or so.

You may want to review the story of the golden calf in Exodus. That was when God changed his mind about destroying the Israelites.

 

[Tutorman]

Catholic and Orthodox Christians value tradition very highly, and they include the deuterocanonical books in the canon. So, not all Traditional Christians include Sirach in the canon, but many do.

Yep, even my Church includes Sirach in the liturgy

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

.
Now if your talking about the Bible Catholics, and the Orthodox read then I would have to agree, it's in their Bibles.

But these books which you guys place so much stock in do not appear in the KJV, or many other Protestant versions.

So we really can't say they..... The "deuterocanonical" books have always been part of Christian scripture. Can we?

Sorry, but what the Israelite's did is not Teaching, they chose to rebel against God.

Do you understand the term DOMAIN?

What the Israelite's did, was a demonstration of that Domain, but it cannot be taken for Free Will.

Because I chose to put on white socks this morning doesn't demonstrate Free Will either, nor does what I chose to eat tonight, and if someone asks me to chose this day what I am going to do then, nope that doesn't do it either.

God pre-ordains what colour of uderwear you pull on each morning. That is absurd; God does not "micro-manage" mankind; if we screw up is that on God's head? He lets us make our own mistakes.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

.
Now if your talking about the Bible Catholics, and the Orthodox read then I would have to agree, it's in their Bibles.

But these books which you guys place so much stock in do not appear in the KJV, or many other Protestant versions.

So we really can't say they..... The "deuterocanonical" books have always been part of Christian scripture. Can we?

Sorry, but what the Israelite's did is not Teaching, they chose to rebel against God.

Do you understand the term DOMAIN?

What the Israelite's did, was a demonstration of that Domain, but it cannot be taken for Free Will.

Because I chose to put on white socks this morning doesn't demonstrate Free Will either, nor does what I chose to eat tonight, and if someone asks me to chose this day what I am going to do then, nope that doesn't do it either.

They did in the original translation. Tax on printed books resulted in their exclusion which is why English speaking Lutherans did without for a time; the only English translation during the transition from Western European languages to English in North Americal was the KJV. It is now restored.

 

[JIMINZ]

God pre-ordains what colour of uderwear you pull on each morning. That is absurd; God does not "micro-manage" mankind; if we screw up is that on God's head? He lets us make our own mistakes.

.
Is that what I said.......Really?

I love the way you have taken what I did say and misconstrued it to exemplify your prejudice.....Nice assumption.

 

[JIMINZ]

They did in the original translation. Tax on printed books resulted in their exclusion which is why English speaking Lutherans did without for a time; the only English translation during the transition from Western European languages to English in North Americal was the KJV. It is now restored.

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Ok if that's what you say.

I'm really happy for the Lutherans of America.

 

[RDKirk]

When the only choice is a choice of slavery to one master or another, that is not "free will."

 

[~Anastasia~]

Since this is Traditional Theology, I'd be curious to know ...

I already know some Christians don't believe in free will. But do any that hold to Holy Tradition believe that, and if so, where did it enter their confessions?