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Free will in heaven?

akaDaScribe

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Right, and God is not a tyrant merely for being the one in charge. He's a tyrant for being tyrannical. Is it not tyrannical to demand love, fear, and obedience on pain of eternal torture? Is it not tyrannical to routinely exterminate entire populations for not paying you enough attention? Is it not tyrannical to want to control the very thoughts in your subjects' minds?

I was going to respond to your points, but to be honest with you, it completely breaks my heart that you perceive him the way you do and that’s just not who he is. I remember having had some of the same feelings and I’m trying to remember how I moved past them. The things I have come to understand I did not understand back then and I’m not sure I would have heard someone who gave me a list of reasons.

So I ask you, if you could know the living God, if you could know his love, if you could ask him questions and understand the things that trouble you about him, would you be willing to? If you could know the living God, would you do it?
 
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gaara4158

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I was going to respond to your points, but to be honest with you, it completely breaks my heart that you perceive him the way you do and that’s just not who he is. I remember having had some of the same feelings and I’m trying to remember how I moved past them. The things I have come to understand I did not understand back then and I’m not sure I would have heard someone who gave me a list of reasons.

So I ask you, if you could know the living God, if you could know his love, if you could ask him questions and understand the things that trouble you about him, would you be willing to? If you could know the living God, would you do it?
I think I know enough already. God, being almighty and all-knowing, is the gatekeeper between myself and belief in him. He knows what he would have to do for me to believe in and love him, and yet he has not done that thing. What else am I to conclude?
 
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akaDaScribe

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I think I know enough already. God, being almighty and all-knowing, is the gatekeeper between myself and belief in him. He knows what he would have to do for me to believe in and love him, and yet he has not done that thing. What else am I to conclude?

Well, tell me what you need and I will bring it to him. I can't make God do anything, but I can nag him about it like an annoying lobbyist. :D I would like to do that for you because I think you are worth it. You can pm it to me if it's not something you feel like talking about on the forum. :)
 
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gaara4158

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Well, tell me what you need and I will bring it to him. I can't make God do anything, but I can nag him about it like an annoying lobbyist. :D I would like to do that for you because I think you are worth it. You can pm it to me if it's not something you feel like talking about on the forum. :)
I don’t even know what I would need, but God would know, and that’s the point. I am exactly in the state of belief that God wants me to be in. If you want me to believe, as I am sure you do, it’s up to God to change his mind, not you to change mine. Is it fair or just that God’s going to punish me for his own decision?
 
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akaDaScribe

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I don’t even know what I would need, but God would know, and that’s the point. I am exactly in the state of belief that God wants me to be in. If you want me to believe, as I am sure you do, it’s up to God to change his mind, not you to change mine. Is it fair or just that God’s going to punish me for his own decision?

I know it's asking a lot, but can you do me a favor? Can you take some time to consider what you would need? You are correct that God knows what you need. But part of what you need may include you understanding what you need.
 
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gaara4158

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I know it's asking a lot, but can you do me a favor? Can you take some time to consider what you would need? You are correct that God knows what you need. But part of what you need may include you understanding what you need.
If God can become as apparent as my left shoe and my smartphone, then I’d believe. He’d have to manifest physically in objectively measurable ways. Only he knows to what extent he’d have to do this in order for me to accept him as real and not in my imagination, but so far he hasn’t, so here I am.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Ah, well, I was a failed student at one time, so it looks like we're appropriately matched. In any case, let me try and clear up our misunderstanding here. We don't have to continue along this thread if you're not interested, but I'd rather not leave things sloppy on my end.

I think the major error you're seeing is my ambiguous use of the word "right" in "might makes right." There is right in the ethical sense, as in right vs. wrong, and there is right in the legal or social sense, as in human rights, animals rights, etc. I object to "might makes right" in both senses of the word. I've talked a lot here about how I derive right vs. wrong, so now I'll just go into my thinking on the latter kind of "right."

Rights, as I understand them, are liberties afforded to citizens by a society. They are determined and enforced collectively by that society, and they serve as axioms or starting points for the society's laws. "Might makes right," in this context, cuts both ways. It's true in the practical sense that the collective might of society is what grants a citizen's rights, but it's not true in the sense that citizens have the legal right to violate others' rights so long as they can muster enough might to avoid being held responsible. It must then be the case that rights are not synonymous to "practical abilities given societal restraints." Instead, they must be the basis of the societal restraints themselves.

So, to ask me what gives me the right to judge God based on my own moral standards isn't asking about my legal right nor about my practical ability to have an opinion, but rather why it matters what I think about God's actions. And I'll grant you, my opinion alone doesn't matter much at all.
You've done a fine job here in clearing up the semantic mess that was evident in your previous few posts, even down to the last sentence above where I've arbitrarily cut off for the sake of making comment. It much of what you're saying here, I think I can agree with or mostly so.

But if I can get you to agree with me by appealing to values we both hold, then I can demonstrate some pretty severe shortcomings with God's ethics in terms of those values. If I can demonstrate that, it calls into question why such a god is to be worshiped or viewed as an appropriate moral arbiter.
...being that I'm not a Divine Command theorist, and being that both Ethics and Social Philosophy were some of the subjects I most had to study while a college student, I'm not sure just how 'easy' it will be for you to either get me to agree with you about the "holding" of values or about the essence of God's moral being or His moral actions and ideals. So, this isn't to say that I'm right and that you're automatically wrong, but rather I'm just giving you a heads up, gaara. I know you're an intelligent guy, and from the way you write, I'm confident you would've made a good philosophy student.

There's a way out of this for the God-defender, and that's to say that God, being omniscient, did take the most ethical course of action in the long run and we just can't see it yet. But then you're forced to defend actions you admittedly don't understand and hold yourself to a moral code you can't defend according to the very values you hold. I do not recommend going this way, for reasons I hope are obvious.
Ok. I'll be that God-defender, however, the extent to which I 'have' to defend my point of view, in my assessment, only has to do with the extent to which I think that I should try to convince you to drop your personal convictions and adopt those of the New Testament. And if I don't think that my POV requires me to have to convince you on an epistemic level, then that's yet another complication that can play into our discussion.

But let's start with the idea that we "hold" similar values? First of all, do we? And second of all, how does one actually "hold" values----how does one measure just "how" we each respectively do this (i.e. how does hermeneutics then play into this supposed "holding")?
 
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akaDaScribe

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If God can become as apparent as my left shoe and my smartphone, then I’d believe. He’d have to manifest physically in objectively measurable ways. Only he knows to what extent he’d have to do this in order for me to accept him as real and not in my imagination, but so far he hasn’t, so here I am.

Ok I’m on it. Let’s see what happens. One thing though. Try to let go of your anger towards God for 1 week and don’t say or write negative things about him. Otherwise my efforts will be in vein.

BTW, if he does come knockin, make sure you open the door.;)
 
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Tinker Grey

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Ok I’m on it. Let’s see what happens. One thing though. Try to let go of your anger towards God for 1 week and don’t say or write negative things about him. Otherwise my efforts will be in vein.

BTW, if he does come knockin, make sure you open the door.;)
Why would you think he has anger toward God? I have no more anger to your god than to Sauron.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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I already responded to this in a post earlier today, but you might not have seen it.


https://www.christianforums.com/threads/free-will-in-heaven.8077851/page-6#post-73083878

I’ve been thinking about what you said and rather than assuming you are just resisting what I’m trying to say, it occurred to me that maybe I need to dig a bit deeper to express my point.

The for some mathematical equations order of operations impacts the outcome of the result.

One could argue that 10=10 no matter how you arrived at that number.
However, if the equations are intertwined with other equations through variables, this may no longer be the case. And, the more formulas are intertwined together the less likely that is to be the case.

Am I making sense?

No this doesn't make sense, and it doesn't address my helium point. Let me give you the short answer and then the long answer.

You seem to be hinting at two sorts of equations:

10·x÷x=10 for all nonzero x

√100=10

The first equation is true. It's pretty much that simple and there's nothing more to say, really. The second equation is true. The fact that √100=-10 as well does not change this. I'm not sure what equation you have in mind that would show that 10 is "kind of 10 but not really."

Here's the formal answer:

Mathematics is nothing but assumptions, definitions, and the conclusions that follow. (As an aside, nothing can actually be proven from assumptions and definitions... but that's an issue for another day.) And while mathematics is a language, it differs from common language.

In common language, all words are defined in terms of other words. This technically leaves everything undefined, and there is no way to avoid this issue (hence my nihilism). Mathematics deals with this problem in its own way: instead of having everything circularly defined, mathematical symbols are defined in terms of undefined, primitive symbols.

For example, consider the ordered pair (0, 1). First, let's define an ordered pair (a, b) in terms of the set: (a, b)={a, {a, b}}. An ordered triple (a, b, c) would be {a, {a, b}, {a, b, c}}. So you can see how an ordered n-tuple would be constructed.

But what about 0 and 1? How are they defined?

We define the natural numbers as follows:

0={}=Ø
1={Ø}
2={Ø, {Ø}}

and so on.

Simply put, anything that is actually "10" will be encoded into a set like this with 10 elements. If there is a variable present, then whatever we're discussing is not 10.

But what is a variable and what is Ø? These are primitive symbols. They have no actual meaning. Intuitively we understand the notion of the variable and of the set: that the first is a placeholder for some number and that the second is a collection of things. But a placeholder for a number doesn't mean much until we know what a number is, and a number is defined in terms of sets. A set is a collection of elements. What's an element, though? An element is a member of a set. To avoid this circularity, sets are left undefined and element are defined as members of sets.

So the reality is that it's worse than what I told you above. I said that mathematics is nothing but assumptions, definitions, and the conclusions that follow. But the definitions themselves are ultimately undefined. So really, mathematics is nothing but assumptions, meaningless symbols, and "conclusions" that "follow." Mathematics is literally just the pushing of symbols... and yet the world of mathematics is rich with more wonders than we can imagine.

But even still, 10=10.


Ok, instead of essence, let’s look at it as data. Could you be summarized in a data set? I mean a massive exhaustive data set that included everything about you. Everything you ever did, every thought you ever had, every particle your body ever consisted of, etc. I mean everything. That combination of data would be an accurate description of who you are/were. In fact, if it was “possible” to “run” that data again, it would be you. Even if the data was deleted, that combination of data would still be you. You could argue that the data is abstract, but it still exists. That data combination is simply a fact.

Data is ultimately meaningless as I showed above, but even if we were to ignore that, it's still the case that data which characterizes me completely isn't actually me. Similarly, consider a definition of a ball that completely characterizes what a ball is. Is this definition a ball? No. It's just a definition. Data is not physical reality.

Well, except data might be physical reality. I would say that we probably do exist in a simulation, and that we are probably lines of code. But then what you'd really be describing is metadata, and not the data that is me. Metadata is not the same as the data it's describing.

In any case, the fact that you could run the code that characterizes me while I sit there and watch it all happening pretty much disproves your idea.




I think I addressed this in the earlier post as well.

Not that I saw.
 
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gaara4158

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Ok I’m on it. Let’s see what happens. One thing though. Try to let go of your anger towards God for 1 week and don’t say or write negative things about him. Otherwise my efforts will be in vein.

BTW, if he does come knockin, make sure you open the door.;)
I don’t have anger towards God. I don’t think he exists. I don’t have much regard for his character according to the Bible, but this isn’t an emotional thing.
 
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Tinker Grey

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akaDaScribe

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I don’t have anger towards God. I don’t think he exists. I don’t have much regard for his character according to the Bible, but this isn’t an emotional thing.

So then, you don't have anger towards God, and you don't have a problem refraining from saying negative things about him for a week, correct?
 
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gaara4158

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So then, you don't have anger towards God, and you don't have a problem refraining from saying negative things about him for a week, correct?
I’m not angry at Voldemort or Sauron either, but if people tried to point to them as moral authorities I’d probably make it a point expose their moral flaws as well. It has nothing to do with anger.
 
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akaDaScribe

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I’m not angry at Voldemort or Sauron either, but if people tried to point to them as moral authorities I’d probably make it a point expose their moral flaws as well. It has nothing to do with anger.

Ok gaara,

The moment has passed. You could not even refrain for saying negative things about God for 1 post.
 
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gaara4158

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You've done a fine job here in clearing up the semantic mess that was evident in your previous few posts, even down to the last sentence above where I've arbitrarily cut off for the sake of making comment. It much of what you're saying here, I think I can agree with or mostly so.
Great! It took some doing, so I'm glad it's all cleared up and we (mostly) agree on the vocabulary side of things.

...being that I'm not a Divine Command theorist, and being that both Ethics and Social Philosophy were some of the subjects I most had to study while a college student, I'm not sure just how 'easy' it will be for you to either get me to agree with you about the "holding" of values or about the essence of God's moral being or His moral actions and ideals. So, this isn't to say that I'm right and that you're automatically wrong, but rather I'm just giving you a heads up, gaara. I know you're an intelligent guy, and from the way you write, I'm confident you would've made a good philosophy student.
Oh, butter me up, why don't you? :blush1:

Ok. I'll be that God-defender, however, the extent to which I 'have' to defend my point of view, in my assessment, only has to do with the extent to which I think that I should try to convince you to drop your personal convictions and adopt those of the New Testament. And if I don't think that my POV requires me to have to convince you on an epistemic level, then that's yet another complication that can play into our discussion.

But let's start with the idea that we "hold" similar values? First of all, do we? And second of all, how does one actually "hold" values----how does one measure just "how" we each respectively do this (i.e. how does hermeneutics then play into this supposed "holding")?
You are of course under no obligation to defend a theistic moral system to me, especially if the one I'm attacking isn't even the one you believe in. I'm primarily interested in seeing if I can get you to see things from my perspective, but I wouldn't bother doing this if I didn't think you could offer some interesting rebuttals.

Alright, before we get into the "how" of holding values, I should pin down what I mean by that. When I say I hold a value, it's another way of saying I value something. To value something is to believe in its importance to your own personal needs and/or desires. So when I say that we both hold certain values, I'm saying we both find certain things important to our own personal needs and desires.
As far as I can tell, there are a handful of things that are universally valued. These things would correspond with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and it's here that moral axioms are implicitly captured. Human flourishing is used as the axiomatic goal of moral systems because as humans, we all value flourishing over suffering, and it is easier to flourish as a cooperative group with a code of conduct than alone in the anarchical wilderness.

At this point, either you agree that the goal of morality is to facilitate human flourishing and we can proceed to evaluate God's ways accordingly, or your moral system is grounded in something else, which as you said, adds another level of complication to our discussion. If your moral system is grounded in something else, I don't know how it helps me obtain the things I need or desire, so I don't know of what value it is to me.
 
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gaara4158

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Ok gaara,

The moment has passed. You could not even refrain for saying negative things about God for 1 post.
Saying negative things is not the same as anger. So what's your point?
 
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akaDaScribe

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Saying negative things is not the same as anger. So what's your point?

Ok I’m on it. Let’s see what happens. One thing though. Try to let go of your anger towards God for 1 week and don’t say or write negative things about him. Otherwise my efforts will be in vein.

BTW, if he does come knockin, make sure you open the door.;)
 
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gaara4158

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don’t say anything negative
Ah, ok. Well I’m morally opposed to your request. I will not be participating. I will point out evil where it appears in fiction people take seriously as a moral guide.

Further, I find it absurd that this would be a part of the process for demonstrating something’s existence. What else do we demonstrate in this way?
 
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