Free will compatible with Christian Theism?

[Serving Zion]

Wow there was a lot there. I think what you have demonstrated is that there is an assumption of free will in the Bible. We use this language of choice and agency because that is our lived experience. It still seems to me though is that this would be an illusion of free will if you have a God who created the universe with a very specific plan. As you implied prophecy has a role in this conversation. If those prophetic events could have only occurred as the end of a chain of human choices, then either it was possible for God to be wrong about the prophecy or, none of those billions of choices could have gone differently. They may have all felt like free will, but if they could not have in fact chosen otherwise can we really call that free will?

I agree with your logic, but I have to point out that you are saying this upon the assumption that the prophecies will be fulfilled, which they yet haven't (but likewise, they haven't yet been written off). This adds further power to the idea of free will -- what do you think of that?

 

[Athée]

There is a difference between man and the animals, according to the Bible. Man alone is made in God's image. Usually we understand that to refer to man's reasoning ability being far above that of the animals, and also the presence of the human spirit. Animals not having those facilities does not mean they don't make choices, but it strains credulity to think they have a moral facility in any way approaching man's.


You're repeating yourself. Saying it twice doesn't make it true.

All I was pointing out in the animal comment was that the image of God has to be more than the ability to make choices. It seems you agree. The rest about morality and reason is interesting but does not address the topic of the thread, namely free will.

As for repeating myself, you will notice that I actually asked a question. Do you believe that the Bible teaches that the names of the elect are in the book from the foundation of the world (ie long before they were born and started making choices). But maybe predestination is not a topic you are familiar with so fair enough. What about prophecy? Do you believe that Jesus fufilled prophecies? Were human choices involved in the realization of these prophecies? Could they have freely chosen otherwise such that Jesus would have failed to fill those prophecies?

 

[Athée]

I agree with your logic, but I have to point out that you are saying this upon the assumption that the prophecies will be fulfilled, which they yet haven't (but likewise, they haven't yet been written off). This adds further power to the idea of free will -- what do you think of that?

That would be the case for prophecies not yet fulfilled since it could be the case that they don't get fulfilled. If there are however, any prophecies that have already been fulfilled successfully, then as you seem to agree the logic holds, and determinism might be the order of the day in both our worldviews.

 

[Serving Zion]

That would be the case for prophecies not yet fulfilled since it could be the case that they don't get fulfilled. If there are however, any prophecies that have already been fulfilled successfully, then as you seem to agree the logic holds, and determinism might be the order of the day in both our worldviews.

Revelation 12:11 shows that the way to overcome the adversary requires that someone chooses to serve God even if it means risking their own life. Luke 14:31-33 (and verse 28) describes the same thing: that someone who serves God needs to make that decision of his own free will. This is the way that God achieves His objectives through His servants, and as we see that the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus were achieved because He lived this to the full (consider the calling of a servant in Isaiah 53).

Romans 6:16 shows that one is either a slave to sin (wherein they are not really free to make decisions, but are easily manipulated by those who know how to work their weaknesses against them) and conversely that the Christian discipline teaches us to get control of our desires so as to control our thoughts, words and actions in the world .. thereby crafting reality with skill (James 3:2).

It just doesn't seem to make sense that someone can choose to serve God, being willing to place his own life at risk by doing so and letting go of his own desires, unless he has free will to do so.. or maybe you could be willing to explore another possible view where the terms "determinism" and "free will" as you have used them are not necessarily mutually exclusive?

 

[JIMINZ]

Forgive me, I'm not sure what point you are making. Am I to understand that you don't believe humans have free will, that it is a deterministic illusion (I actually lean that way on naturalism as well although I am not very confident about my position)?

.
Going back to your original post.

So here is the question as I see it.

God instantiated a universe. Could he have not created one? Was that an option or was he constrained by his nature, one of his perfections, such that the creative act was one that he had to take in order to be consistent with this nature?
If the latter then it doesn't seem much like free will but rather a forced continuation according to His nature.

.
First, Scripture says.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Therefore the question of whether He Created or Instantiated the Universe, is settled, (It was Created)

Second, God Created the Heaven and the Earth because, He wanted to, not because He was constrained to do so.

God does not have Free Will, His having Free Will would Denote His being subjugated to a Being Greater than Himself, which gave Him the ability to choose,(Free Will).

God does not have Free Will, everything He does, "Is His Will",... His Will is not subject to another's Will.

God has Dominion, and is Sovereign.

He exerted that Dominion and Created the Heaven and the Earth.

God has Dominion over His Domain, that being the Heaven, and the Earth which He Created.

God gave Man Dominion over his own Domain, being the Earth, this being, ONLY the physical aspects of the Earth and his existence within it, while reserving for Himself the right to interject His purpose, (Being Spiritual) into the Earth, at any time or place of His own choosing, without disrupting the Physical aspects of Mankind's Domain.

Which means in essence, Man has a Will also, just as God does, it's not a Free Will which is subject to a Greater Being, it is his Will, in his Domain, not subject to anyone other than himself.

Therefore Mankind having a Will of his own, should not be confused with man having a Free Will, which he doesn't have.

 

[HereIStand]

This is the problem I was trying to point out. You just said that God is all powerful and then said he couldn't do something. It seems to me that the more careful position is to say that God can do all things that are logically possible. He can't make a rock He can't pick up because that is logically impossible, He can't make a married bachelor because that is impossible. If you accept this then your belief that free will is consistent with Christian theism despite having acknowledged that it is logically inconsistent, is a contradiction in your worldview that needs to be addressed.

Quandaries such married bachelors are interesting parlor games, but they don't conform to anyone's experience of reality. Given this, they're not a threat to the Christian worldview. We experience the world as God ordered it, not in a way that He did not.

 

[Athée]

Revelation 12:11 shows that the way to overcome the adversary requires that someone chooses to serve God even if it means risking their own life. Luke 14:31-33 (and verse 28) describes the same thing: that someone who serves God needs to make that decision of his own free will. This is the way that God achieves His objectives through His servants, and as we see that the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus were achieved because He lived this to the full (consider the calling of a servant in Isaiah 53).

Romans 6:16 shows that one is either a slave to sin (wherein they are not really free to make decisions, but are easily manipulated by those who know how to work their weaknesses against them) and conversely that the Christian discipline teaches us to get control of our desires so as to control our thoughts, words and actions in the world .. thereby crafting reality with skill (James 3:2).

It just doesn't seem to make sense that someone can choose to serve God, being willing to place his own life at risk by doing so and letting go of his own desires, unless he has free will to do so.. or maybe you could be willing to explore another possible view where the terms "determinism" and "free will" as you have used them are not necessarily mutually exclusive?

Thanks for the thoughtful post
It seems to me that here again we have a demonstration that there is an appearance of free will in the Bible (and there is, I agree) but not necessarily that there is actual free will. This seems particularily true in light of prophecy. Pick any prophecy you like and then think about the proximal cause of human decisions, investigate some what if questions. What if Mary had a bad experience with a stranger when she was 6 and he looked so much like Joseph that just the sight of Joseph repelled her to the point of hatred. So of her own free will she would not have married Joseph and we don't get Jesus as prophecy predicted. Now how many decisions went into that chance encounter with the stranger, had any of them been different we could get a different outcome. So if it is the case the Biblical prophecy is true, then those apparent free will decisions were not free after all but rather were determined from the moment of creation.

 

[Athée]

.
Going back to you original post.


.
First, Scripture says.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Therefore the question of whether He Created or Instantiated the Universe, is settled, (It was Created)

Second, God Created the Heaven and the Earth because, He wanted to, not because He was constrained to do so.

God does not have Free Will, His having Free Will would Denote His being subjugated to a Being Greater than Himself, which gave Him the ability to choose,(Free Will).

God does not have Free Will, everything He does, "Is His Will",... His Will is not subject to another's Will.

God has Dominion, and is Sovereign.

He exerted that Dominion and Created the Heaven and the Earth.

God has Dominion over His Domain, that being the Heaven, and the Earth which He Created.

God gave Man Dominion over his own Domain, being the Earth, this being, ONLY the physical aspects of the Earth and his existence within it, while reserving for Himself the right to interject His purpose, (Being Spiritual) into the Earth, at any time or place of His own choosing, without disrupting the Physical aspects of Mankind's Domain.

Which means in essence, Man has a Will also, just as God does, it's not a Free Will which is subject to a Greater Being, it is his Will, in his Domain, not subject to anyone other than himself.

Therefore Mankind having a Will of his own, should not be confused with man having a Free Will, which he doesn't have.

so it seems to me that we actually agree about the lack of free will on Christian theism. Neat

 

[Athée]

Quandaries such married bachelors are interesting parlor games, but they don't conform to anyone's experience of reality. Given this, they're not a threat to the Christian worldview. We experience the world as God ordered it, not in a way that He did not.

They are not a threat to many versions of Christian theism that I have encountered. They seem, however, to be a problem for your specific view. You said that free will is logically incoherent on Christian theism but that it exists anyway because God. This is the same in structure as saying, married bachelors are logically impossible but they exist because God.

If your answer to the question "can god make a square circle?" is "No", then your answer to, can humans be said to have free will on Christian theism should also be "no" and for the same reason.

 

[HereIStand]

They are not a threat to many versions of Christian theism that I have encountered. They seem, however, to be a problem for your specific view. You said that free will is logically incoherent on Christian theism but that it exists anyway because God. This is the same in structure as saying, married bachelors are logically impossible but they exist because God.

If your answer to the question "can god make a square circle?" is "No", then your answer to, can humans be said to have free will on Christian theism should also be "no" and for the same reason.

Saying something is a mystery to us is not the same thing as saying it is logically incoherent. God is in control of all reality. We are responsible for our actions. It's not an either/or, but a both/and. Both truths are found in the Bible and in Christian theology.

 

[Athée]

Saying something is a mystery to us is not the same thing as saying it is logically incoherent. God is in control of all reality. We are responsible for our actions. It's not an either/or, but a both/and. Both truths are found in the Bible and in Christian theology.

To quote a wise person, just saying it again doesn't make it true. It seems like you are saying that God is sovereign over everything and absolutely everything (including the results of human decisions) happens invariably according to his will but in some mysterious way we still have free will.
Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are trying to say but how is that different from saying God can make square circles because mystery and magic. Him being absolutely sovereign over everything seems directly contradictory to humans having free will in the same way that a shape having corners is directly contradictory to it being circular.

 

[Serving Zion]

Thanks for the thoughtful post
It seems to me that here again we have a demonstration that there is an appearance of free will in the Bible (and there is, I agree) but not necessarily that there is actual free will. This seems particularily true in light of prophecy. Pick any prophecy you like and then think about the proximal cause of human decisions, investigate some what if questions. What if Mary had a bad experience with a stranger when she was 6 and he looked so much like Joseph that just the sight of Joseph repelled her to the point of hatred. So of her own free will she would not have married Joseph and we don't get Jesus as prophecy predicted. Now how many decisions went into that chance encounter with the stranger, had any of them been different we could get a different outcome. So if it is the case the Biblical prophecy is true, then those apparent free will decisions were not free after all but rather were determined from the moment of creation.

This is not necessarily the only conclusion to draw though. I do see what you are saying, but to assume that God is responsible for the poor decisions people make, produces logical problems when looking for consistency of character (eg: James 1:13).

I personally do not think that the fulfilment of prophecy proves that free will is not present. Rather, given the presence of free will, it proves that God knows human nature better than any and it is only because His servants (including those mentioned in Hebrews 1:14) are faithful, and that His wisdom is supreme, He is able to solve every problem to keep achieving His objectives (consider Proverbs 26:27 and Proverbs 1:17).

There definitely is plenty of examples in the bible where human decisions do not please Him, and therefore do not reflect His will. He also says this in Genesis 6:3.

 

[HereIStand]

To quote a wise person, just saying it again doesn't make it true. It seems like you are saying that God is sovereign over everything and absolutely everything (including the results of human decisions) happens invariably according to his will but in some mysterious way we still have free will.
Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are trying to say but how is that different from saying God can make square circles because mystery and magic. Him being absolutely sovereign over everything seems directly contradictory to humans having free will in the same way that a shape having corners is directly contradictory to it being circular.

I'm not sure what you are arguing against. Some Christian traditions emphasize God's sovereignty over human free will. Other Christian traditions emphasize free will over sovereignty. Scripture affirms God's sovereignty and human responsibility. There are great reasons to believe in God and to trust the Bible for life's answers. That doesn't mean that every question can be answered to our satisfaction. Some things are true but remain a mystery, which if I believe in God and trust the Bible is logical.

 

[Radagast]

God instantiated a universe. Could he have not created one?

A fundamental Christian belief is "Free Creation" -- that God chose to create.

So on Christian theism there is this plan that will work out as god has intended it. How is this compatible with free will.

It's compatible with certain definitions of free will.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If your answer to the question "can god make a square circle?" is "No", then your answer to, can humans be said to have free will on Christian theism should also be "no" and for the same reason.

Athée, the notion that a statement such as "God can make a square circle" actually says something clearly and distinctly at a semantic level is itself a very confused notion. I think that once you look at the semantic problem involved here due to the fact that the subjects are way too vague, you'll see that all this kind of playing around is not affirming anything that informs us in regard to the nature of the Biblical God. Can you see the semantic problem in the connotations of the terms?

Personally, I'm not even sure why anyone still bothers to ask these kinds of questions or to debate these kinds of trifling, confused issues, let alone use them as ANALOGIES that supposedly have some bearing upon issues of free will. It's ludicrous, really.

 

[Athée]

I'm not sure what you are arguing against. Some Christian traditions emphasize God's sovereignty over human free will. Other Christian traditions emphasize free will over sovereignty. Scripture affirms God's sovereignty and human responsibility. There are great reasons to believe in God and to trust the Bible for life's answers. That doesn't mean that every question can be answered to our satisfaction. Some things are true but remain a mystery, which if I believe in God and trust the Bible is logical.

It's not a matter of emphasis though, we are investigating if it is logically incoherent.
Saying " because mystery because God " is equivent to saying actually God can make a square circle because magic. What ibam asking You for is either a statement that you actually don't think there is free will on Christian theism or explain to me how full and complete sovereignty over all things including the outcomes of human descisions is compatible with free will. If your best answer is "it's a mystery" then you are comfortable with believing illogical things. If believing in illogical things because God and magic and mystery is where you are at then I guess there is no need for this to continue because you seem to not be interested in having your beliefs make sense. That said I appreciated your attempt to explain things on your worldview and thanknypu for contributing your thoughts to the thread.

Have a good week.

A.

 

[Halbhh]

Moreover, God, knowing all possible things, knows what would have occurred and what each human would choose to do in any possible universe he created.

That's almost a similar wording, but not quite! (see at end for the corrected wording)

By scripture, our choices are not already-decided ahead of time.

Non determinism.

Just one Old Testament example of real choice, not predetermined: Lev chapter 26 --

3 “ ‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, 4 I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. 5 Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land."
...
14 “ ‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands,15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. "

We see this over and over in scripture, this pattern of real choices, and God saying what the outcomes of those real choices will be.

We do know God can foresee where we are heading at the moment -- what destination our current direction will lead to -- and thus He knows where we will go if we do not change our course, But He gave us each our own individual spirit which has an ability to change direction!

 

[HereIStand]

It's not a matter of emphasis though, we are investigating if it is logically incoherent.
Saying " because mystery because God " is equivent to saying actually God can make a square circle because magic. What ibam asking You for is either a statement that you actually don't think there is free will on Christian theism or explain to me how full and complete sovereignty over all things including the outcomes of human descisions is compatible with free will. If your best answer is "it's a mystery" then you are comfortable with believing illogical things. If believing in illogical things because God and magic and mystery is where you are at then I guess there is no need for this to continue because you seem to not be interested in having your beliefs make sense. That said I appreciated your attempt to explain things on your worldview and thanknypu for contributing your thoughts to the thread.

Have a good week.

A.

You have good week as well. Thank you for the feedback.

What I've presented is the Presbyterian view of God's providence and human free will, albeit from a layman's perspective. To paraphrase Augustine though, if you don't find my perspective helpful, seek out another Christian one. Catholic scholar Peter Kreeft presents a good overview of Aquinas' philosophy in these audio lectures. In the end though, as Étienne Gilson has noted,
"Today our only choice is not Kant or Descartes; it is rather Kant or Thomas Aquinas.
All other positions are but halfway houses on the roads which lead either to absolute
religious agnosticism or to the natural theology of Christian metaphysics."

 

[Hawkins]

Hey all, I am an agnostic atheist, naturalist, humanist etc. In my worldview I am not sure what to make of free will and will be happy to admit this. That said today I am asking about the account and justification of free will on Christian theism.

In conversation with an apologist buddy recently, we got on to this topic and i had a hard time seeing how his view made sense. So here is the question as I see it.

God instantiated a universe. Could he have not created one? Was that an option or was he constrained by his nature, one of his perfections, such that the creative act was one that he had to take in order to be consistent with this nature?
If the latter then it doesn't seem much like free will but rather a forced continuation according to His nature.

In any event, God creates this universe and either he could have created a different universe or he was constrained to create only the universe we observe. Moreover, God, knowing all possible things, knows what would have occurred and what each human would choose to do in any possible universe he created. He chose (or didn't) this one. According to the Bible this universe has some interesting features including a plan for Jesus to come to earth and the names of the elect written in the book before the world even began (in the beginning...). So on Christian theism there is this plan that will work out as god has intended it. How is this compatible with free will. Just think of all the billions of "free will" decisions that would have led to the birth of a singe saved human. Their parents had to meet at the right time on the right day, while being in the right frame of mind, and so did their parents and their parents.... To say that these decisions could have gone otherwise is to say that it was possible that God's plan for salvation could have been thwarted by a single human decision, and all of God's prophecies and proclamations would have been wrong etc. So it seems that we humans have to choose to do exactly what God decreed for us in the moment He created the universe. This doesn't seem like free will to me.

What says you ?

What humans don't actually understand is time. Einstein once put time is not a stable unit but speed/velocity is. It means that we humans don't actually what time is. Under most circumstance our conception will have to assume that time is a constant progressing evenly forward. This however is not an accurate assumption.

God's foreknowledge can go independent of our freewill. God has the omnipotence to choose not to know one when he's in hell. The one in hell still exercises his freewill without God's knowledge.

Our universe is not even the ultimate goal. Earth with its universe is just a temporary product. Heaven is God's goal. God can know everything before hand however it's not legitimate to bring anyone to heaven. He knows everything before hand but still He needs our behavior to be openly witnessed and judged on the Judgment Day for Him to legitimately brings us to heaven. Or else His realm is not a lawful realm and He can't be a fair God.

 

[com7fy8]

In another forum I would challenge the notion that this kind of determinism is compatible with God being good and loving

In case I understand what you mean . . .

If God is loving and there is destiny for God, then we can't say He is responsible for the fact that there is evil. Also, if destiny means human free will is experienced but humans do not really have freedom . . . this is not God's fault, also . . . if He is destined, also.

But . . . about if it is loving for one being to control another > have you brought up children? Do you, or would you, just tell your children that they have free wills to do whatsoever they please - - because you love them? I would rather be brought up by God, than have all which my own free will could get me.