Free will compatible with Christian Theism?

[Athée]

Hey all, I am an agnostic atheist, naturalist, humanist etc. In my worldview I am not sure what to make of free will and will be happy to admit this. That said today I am asking about the account and justification of free will on Christian theism.

In conversation with an apologist buddy recently, we got on to this topic and i had a hard time seeing how his view made sense. So here is the question as I see it.

God instantiated a universe. Could he have not created one? Was that an option or was he constrained by his nature, one of his perfections, such that the creative act was one that he had to take in order to be consistent with this nature?
If the latter then it doesn't seem much like free will but rather a forced continuation according to His nature.

In any event, God creates this universe and either he could have created a different universe or he was constrained to create only the universe we observe. Moreover, God, knowing all possible things, knows what would have occurred and what each human would choose to do in any possible universe he created. He chose (or didn't) this one. According to the Bible this universe has some interesting features including a plan for Jesus to come to earth and the names of the elect written in the book before the world even began (in the beginning...). So on Christian theism there is this plan that will work out as god has intended it. How is this compatible with free will. Just think of all the billions of "free will" decisions that would have led to the birth of a singe saved human. Their parents had to meet at the right time on the right day, while being in the right frame of mind, and so did their parents and their parents.... To say that these decisions could have gone otherwise is to say that it was possible that God's plan for salvation could have been thwarted by a single human decision, and all of God's prophecies and proclamations would have been wrong etc. So it seems that we humans have to choose to do exactly what God decreed for us in the moment He created the universe. This doesn't seem like free will to me.

What says you ?

 

[HereIStand]

It is a mystery. We are responsible for our actions. God wills good and permits evil. God knows everything in advance, and nothing happens by chance or luck. He has a purpose that his hidden to us. In faith, we trust that purpose is good.

This is difficult for us to grasp, especially as we see people profiting from unjust acts. In the end though, as Boethius noted, such people actually heap more judgment on themselves, then if they had acted unjustly without profit to themselves.

 

[paul1149]

So it seems that we humans have to choose to do exactly what God decreed for us in the moment He created the universe.

Or rather, that God knew beforehand what we would choose.

 

[Athée]

It is a mystery. We are responsible for our actions. God wills good and permits evil. God knows everything in advance, and nothing happens by chance or luck. He has a purpose that his hidden to us. In faith, we trust that purpose is good.

This is difficult for us to grasp, especially as we see people profiting from unjust acts. In the end though, as Boethius noted, such people actually heap more judgment on themselves, then if they had acted unjustly without profit to themselves.

Is saying it is a mystery the same as saying that it seems logically incoherent from our human perspective but that you believe God has some way or reconciling this?

 

[HereIStand]

Is saying it is a mystery the same as saying that it seems logically incoherent from our human perspective but that you believe God has some way or reconciling this?

Yes.

 

[Athée]

Or rather, that God knew beforehand what we would choose.

I would say both/and rather then either/or to that. It seems to be the case that God instantiated this universe knowing ahead of time what every single decision would be. The catch is that in any version of Christianity that I have ever heard, God is the causal agent of the universe. So it is not the case that He just knew ahead of time and watched as things unfold as he saw them. Rather God either made the universe in which we would chose those things and we can't choose otherwise (meaning we have only the illusion of free will), or he was constrained to make the only possible universe and in it all our choices are determined in the act of creating it. In either case I don't see the free will.

 

[Athée]

Yes.

So if it is logically incoherent (from our perspective) wouldn't that entail that you are being demonstrably irrational to believe it? I'm not trying to be offensive, it just seems like you are saying something like "premise x is impossible based on how I see the world but I will believe in x anyway because God".
In this case it seems slightly worse because you seem to be saying that God is acting in violation of logic. If God can be illogical isn't that a bigger problem for your worldview than the free will question that it was a response to?

 

[paul1149]

in any version of Christianity that I have ever heard, God is the causal agent of the universe. So it is not the case that He just knew ahead of time and watched as things unfold as he saw them

There's only a space between those two sentences, but that space represents a vast logical leap. God created the universe, but He then created man in His image - that is, with the ability to make decisions. Man is accountable to what he does in this life. Therefore he has to have free will, or God is unjust.

 

[JIMINZ]

Hey all, I am an agnostic atheist, naturalist, humanist etc. In my worldview I am not sure what to make of free will and will be happy to admit this. That said today I am asking about the account and justification of free will on Christian theism.

In conversation with an apologist buddy recently, we got on to this topic and i had a hard time seeing how his view made sense. So here is the question as I see it.

God instantiated a universe. Could he have not created one? Was that an option or was he constrained by his nature, one of his perfections, such that the creative act was one that he had to take in order to be consistent with this nature?
If the latter then it doesn't seem much like free will but rather a forced continuation according to His nature.

In any event, God creates this universe and either he could have created a different universe or he was constrained to create only the universe we observe. Moreover, God, knowing all possible things, knows what would have occurred and what each human would choose to do in any possible universe he created. He chose (or didn't) this one. According to the Bible this universe has some interesting features including a plan for Jesus to come to earth and the names of the elect written in the book before the world even began (in the beginning...). So on Christian theism there is this plan that will work out as god has intended it. How is this compatible with free will. Just think of all the billions of "free will" decisions that would have led to the birth of a singe saved human. Their parents had to meet at the right time on the right day, while being in the right frame of mind, and so did their parents and their parents.... To say that these decisions could have gone otherwise is to say that it was possible that God's plan for salvation could have been thwarted by a single human decision, and all of God's prophecies and proclamations would have been wrong etc. So it seems that we humans have to choose to do exactly what God decreed for us in the moment He created the universe. This doesn't seem like free will to me.

What says you ?

.
How are you applying your understanding of Free Will.

1) God being the Creator, does have Free Will otherwise we wouldnt be here, it is only by His Free Will we exist.

2) Man has Free Will because???

Today you choose to wear a pair of socks, one red one green, and tomorrow one sock blue and the other yellow?

You can choose to jump off a bridge, or go to Europe.

What purpose in your personal life does Free Will benefit you or the lack of Free Will hinder you?

What does Free Will give to mankind.

What is the overall benefit of Free Will to mankind if any at all?

If your counter theory to God having Free Will is it all happened because of randomness.

Then you would have to think of all the billions of random acts which would have had to occure in precisely the correct order for US to be where we are today.

God has Free Will, HE chose to Create, because He could, Gods' mode of Creating is by speaking things into being which prior to His speaking did not exist, He did not take something which did exist and create something else.

You see, it's like this, God did not Create Man, by His speaking man into existance, like He did with everything else, NO, God formed Man from the ground which He had previously Created.

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 1:27,28
27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

It is at this point, and from this understanding where man believes he has Free Will, this is not so, but he does have Dominion.

 

[com7fy8]

God instantiated a universe.

yup

Could he have not created one?

My opinion is this is the way it is, simple as this.

I have no problem with the idea that God has His own destiny of what He will and will not do. He did not choose to exist or come into existence. It is His destiny . . . and a very good one, how God is the Supreme Being of Family Caring and Sharing love with absolutely greater power and control, than all else.

And so, though there is evil in existence, it can not wear out God and tire Him out and use Him up from being loving and kind. And He is strong enough to share this with us, without Him changing to less. This is what is basic to salvation, how Jesus saves people from what is inferior, and He in us shares with us God's own eternal love life almighty so we can become more and more strong in real love which can not be broken or hurt or wasted and worn out. Because God shares this His very own with us.

Was that an option or was he constrained by his nature, one of his perfections, such that the creative act was one that he had to take in order to be consistent with this nature?

My personal understanding is that before our Heavenly Father created the universe, He was sharing with His own Son Jesus; and He was so delighted and pleased with Jesus, that He desired to have more children like Jesus is so pleasing to Him. And so, He created this universe as His place to have and bring up many brothers and sisters of Jesus > Romans 8:29.

So, yes, it was God's choice. And above I have offered that this is good for us . . . better than what a number of us humans have been thinking about and choosing. So, whether we have free will or not, we have not been doing very well with whatever we have! People's free wills, if they really have them, have not been doing them much good.

I tend to go with how you might find that God is determining things. My take is that there is only one way that you can know what will happen in the future . . . if you are in control of the future!! lolololololololol

But my ego just might not like this; and so I might decide it can't be so, and then I can make up ways of denying it, when it would be smart to simply submit to God and discover all He is able to do with us.

If the latter then it doesn't seem much like free will but rather a forced continuation according to His nature.

I would not say "forced". But all other than God, in existence, does not have the love nature to be like God and do what is really good; so all needs to be worked by God > please consider "worked", versus "forced".

With our own nature not being loving, we need how God in us works our willing and doing >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

There is the idea that humans must be puppets if they don't have free will. But the Bible clearly says that humans without God are "dead" (Ephesians 2:1). Without Jesus giving us life, humans are not alive in love; so therefore humans on their own can not make loving choices . . . not truly loving choices.

So, yes humans in sin are love-dead puppets. This is not because of God who is love and is alive. He takes Satan's love-dead humans and makes them alive as His own children. So, it is not wise to accuse God of being a puppeteer, when not a one of us is alive in real love, unless God changes us out of our love-dead nature.

 

[HereIStand]

So if it is logically incoherent (from our perspective) wouldn't that entail that you are being demonstrably irrational to believe it? I'm not trying to be offensive, it just seems like you are saying something like "premise x is impossible based on how I see the world but I will believe in x anyway because God".
In this case it seems slightly worse because you seem to be saying that God is acting in violation of logic. If God can be illogical isn't that a bigger problem for your worldview than the free will question that it was a response to?

We only have limited range of perspective. What seems illogical to us, isn't so to God.

The pastor at the church I attend noted yesterday in a sermon that unlike us, God is able to govern and see the confluence of events. The relationship between God as the first cause and secondary causes is noted here in the Westminster Confession.

In terms of understanding our perspective from a Christian perspective, I've thought of giving Bishop Berkeley a try. You might also.

 

[Serving Zion]

Hey all, I am an agnostic atheist, naturalist, humanist etc. In my worldview I am not sure what to make of free will and will be happy to admit this. That said today I am asking about the account and justification of free will on Christian theism.

In conversation with an apologist buddy recently, we got on to this topic and i had a hard time seeing how his view made sense. So here is the question as I see it.

God instantiated a universe. Could he have not created one? Was that an option or was he constrained by his nature, one of his perfections, such that the creative act was one that he had to take in order to be consistent with this nature?
If the latter then it doesn't seem much like free will but rather a forced continuation according to His nature.

We Christians recognise a spiritual dimension in the world, and in fact, the spiritual realm influences thought so as to produce actions that shape the physical realm (Hebrews 1:14, Luke 6:45).

In Genesis, when God is saying "Let light become!" - who does He say this to? Does He say it to a human? .. no, indeed, He says it to a different kind of observer. God is one such observer named in that text as being present at the time, as we read "God saw the light, that it was good".

We see later on too, that He looked upon mankind with regret, for "their heart's inclination was to evil continuously". It broke His heart and He was sorry He had made them. He was tempted by that despair to destroy them, but Noah's righteousness found favour in God's eyes, and because of that hope through him, the human race was carried on.

This all does seem to show that God is acting with free will, deciding for the purpose of making good with what is available.

In any event, God creates this universe and either he could have created a different universe or he was constrained to create only the universe we observe. Moreover, God, knowing all possible things, knows what would have occurred and what each human would choose to do in any possible universe he created. He chose (or didn't) this one. According to the Bible this universe has some interesting features including a plan for Jesus to come to earth and the names of the elect written in the book before the world even began (in the beginning...).

Could I just ask for you to include the scriptural reference that you have mentioned in this underlined piece? Thank you, it's just so that I can see the same view that you have.

So on Christian theism there is this plan that will work out as god has intended it. How is this compatible with free will. Just think of all the billions of "free will" decisions that would have led to the birth of a singe saved human. Their parents had to meet at the right time on the right day, while being in the right frame of mind, and so did their parents and their parents.... To say that these decisions could have gone otherwise is to say that it was possible that God's plan for salvation could have been thwarted by a single human decision, and all of God's prophecies and proclamations would have been wrong etc.

So it seems that we humans have to choose to do exactly what God decreed for us in the moment He created the universe. This doesn't seem like free will to me.

What says you ?

The humans have weaknesses, and these are potential exploits for those who are devious. Jesus said in John 10:10 that there is a thief who has come to steal, kill and destroy - yet He had come that we may have life abundantly.

Although you are right that God's sovereignty and power is absolute, He still has constraints: He cannot act contrary to His nature. There is an eternal, unchanging law of righteousness that justifies a holy one. A holy one cannot transgress that law and remain justified by it. This means that God's ability to achieve His desire through humans is restricted by our inherent weakness (our tendencies lend us toward transgressing the eternal law and becoming liable for His punishment instead of receiving His power through obedience unto righteousness - Romans 6:16).

(As an aside), I wonder whether you might add value to these thoughts by considering Ezekiel 21:27:

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him."

and Isaiah 5:13-14:

"My people are in captivity for lack of knowledge. Their honorable men are famished and their multitudes parched with thirst. Therefore Sheol has enlarged its gullet and opened its measureless mouth — down goes her glory, her tumult, her uproar, and the revelry in her."

.. so, God has to contend with humans who do not always choose to act in a way that supports His objectives, and this is an opposition to His plan of redemption, especially when it is Christians themselves who are doing so (Jeremiah 23:21-22).

You might be inclined to think that the world would be better if those ones were simply removed from the scene, (and it would), but God is restricted in His ability to execute that judgement according to His ultimate need to remain holy (without blame according to His own law of righteousness): A person cannot receive conviction if they genuinely believe they are doing right - and herein is the core of the problem. So many people in this modern age have yielded to deceptions and false doctrines innocently (2 Peter 2:1-2, 1 John 4:1), that they are in fact with good conscience even when the truth is against them.

Yet, it does not mean that they have His approval either, rather, that their resolve against the truth causes them to hide from Him, refuting all truth that threatens their beliefs, and they even believe that they are blessed when in fact they are cursed (Galatians 1:9, Matthew 6:22-23).

..So what is He to do in order to achieve His objective?

There is hereby two classes of believer: the one who has chosen to deceive themselves by yielding to a false doctrine, becoming enslaved to sin (this happens so easily - as a new Christian is desperate to belong to a church, they will believe answers that don't make sense - twisting the scriptures to support it); Conversely, there is the one who has received an accurate knowledge of God so that they are following His leadership, always doing what He requires of them.

According to these two classes, one is cooperative and willing to obey God, the other is uncooperative and although carrying the identity of belonging to God in the eyes of the world, they do not repent at the word of truth. These two types of people obviously need to be managed in different ways. The one who is obedient is motivated by love, they can have a close relationship with God (John 14:21) and He can give instructions to them to act, which they will follow. The one who is disobedient is motivated by their passions, and as such, their loyalties are toward things of the earth. They will not be able to carry out God's instructions, so they are better controlled through manipulation (consider 1 Kings 22:19-22).

St. Paul wrote of this in Philippians 1:12-18, where he had been imprisoned and some of the false teachers who were teaching Christianity not in accordance with The Holy Spirit of God, they were viewing St Paul as an enemy because they had committed themselves to a false doctrine as I explained. They had become the antichrists that St John wrote of in 1 John 4:5-6. There are many such ones in the world today (having accumulated 2,000 years of false teachings already).

.. so where does that leave us in terms of a conversation and the OP? .. Well, you can see in John 14:21 and Revelation 3:20, that we all have an invitation to pursue a relationship with Him, and to turn over our life to Him so that He can work through us to bring forth the accurate knowledge of His ways, and that leads to the ultimate liberation of the world from it's present course of destruction into paradise (Isaiah 11:9).

But in saying all of this, I now need to see what your thoughts are about what I have said, whether this has been enough already to have helped you see free will. I notice that we haven't yet looked at how prophecy fits with free will, which is the encrypted writings that outline God's plan of redemption. Maybe you would like to bring in some thoughts about that too.

 

[Athée]

There's only a space between those two sentences, but that space represents a vast logical leap. God created the universe, but He then created man in His image - that is, with the ability to make decisions. Man is accountable to what he does in this life. Therefore he has to have free will, or God is unjust.

If made in his image really only means making choices then animals are also made in his image right? Also, it seems to me, that just saying we have free will or God is unjust is not a justification that we have free will so much as it is an admission of the problem as you see it.
Do you believe the Bible when it says that the names of the elect are in the book before the world began? If so, then it seems that the vast interconnecting network of human decisions that led to those particular people being saved must has been set before the universe began...

 

[Athée]

.
How are you applying your understanding of Free Will.

1) God being the Creator, does have Free Will otherwise we wouldnt be here, it is only by His Free Will we exist.

2) Man has Free Will because???

Today you choose to wear a pair of socks, one red one green, and tomorrow one sock blue and the other yellow?

You can choose to jump off a bridge, or go to Europe.

What purpose in your personal life does Free Will benefit you or the lack of Free Will hinder you?

What does Free Will give to mankind.

What is the overall benefit of Free Will to mankind if any at all?

If your counter theory to God having Free Will is it all happened because of randomness.

Then you would have to think of all the billions of random acts which would have had to occure in precisely the correct order for US to be where we are today.

God has Free Will, HE chose to Create, because He could, Gods' mode of Creating is by speaking things into being which prior to His speaking did not exist, He did not take something which did exist and create something else.

You see, it's like this, God did not Create Man, by His speaking man into existance, like He did with everything else, NO, God formed Man from the ground which He had previously Created.

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 1:27,28
27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

It is at this point, and from this understanding where man believes he has Free Will, this is not so, but he does have Dominion.

Forgive me, I'm not sure what point you are making. Am I to understand that you don't believe humans have free will, that it is a deterministic illusion (I actually lean that way on naturalism as well although I am not very confident about my position)?

 

[Athée]

yup My opinion is this is the way it is, simple as this.

I have no problem with the idea that God has His own destiny of what He will and will not do. He did not choose to exist or come into existence. It is His destiny . . . and a very good one, how God is the Supreme Being of Family Caring and Sharing love with absolutely greater power and control, than all else.

And so, though there is evil in existence, it can not wear out God and tire Him out and use Him up from being loving and kind. And He is strong enough to share this with us, without Him changing to less. This is what is basic to salvation, how Jesus saves people from what is inferior, and He in us shares with us God's own eternal love life almighty so we can become more and more strong in real love which can not be broken or hurt or wasted and worn out. Because God shares this His very own with us.

My personal understanding is that before our Heavenly Father created the universe, He was sharing with His own Son Jesus; and He was so delighted and pleased with Jesus, that He desired to have more children like Jesus is so pleasing to Him. And so, He created this universe as His place to have and bring up many brothers and sisters of Jesus > Romans 8:29.

So, yes, it was God's choice. And above I have offered that this is good for us . . . better than what a number of us humans have been thinking about and choosing. So, whether we have free will or not, we have not been doing very well with whatever we have! People's free wills, if they really have them, have not been doing them much good.

I tend to go with how you might find that God is determining things. My take is that there is only one way that you can know what will happen in the future . . . if you are in control of the future!! lolololololololol

But my ego just might not like this; and so I might decide it can't be so, and then I can make up ways of denying it, when it would be smart to simply submit to God and discover all He is able to do with us.

I would not say "forced". But all other than God, in existence, does not have the love nature to be like God and do what is really good; so all needs to be worked by God > please consider "worked", versus "forced".

With our own nature not being loving, we need how God in us works our willing and doing >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

There is the idea that humans must be puppets if they don't have free will. But the Bible clearly says that humans without God are "dead" (Ephesians 2:1). Without Jesus giving us life, humans are not alive in love; so therefore humans on their own can not make loving choices . . . not truly loving choices.

So, yes humans in sin are love-dead puppets. This is not because of God who is love and is alive. He takes Satan's love-dead humans and makes them alive as His own children. So, it is not wise to accuse God of being a puppeteer, when not a one of us is alive in real love, unless God changes us out of our love-dead nature.

That is a very interesting perspective. In another forum I would challenge the notion that this kind of determinism is compatible with God being good and loving but as far as exploring your thinking I appreciate your insights.

 

[Athée]

We only have limited range of perspective. What seems illogical to us, isn't so to God.

The pastor at the church I attend noted yesterday in a sermon that unlike us, God is able to govern and see the confluence of events. The relationship between God as the first cause and secondary causes is noted here in the Westminster Confession.

In terms of understanding our perspective from a Christian perspective, I've thought of giving Bishop Berkeley a try. You might also.

So it seems you are sticking with the idea that God can do things that are logically impossible as we understand them. This would mean that the old "Can God make a rock so heavy He can't lift it" is a valid a difficult question for your view of God. So can he? Why or why not?

 

[HereIStand]

So it seems you are sticking with the idea that God can do things that are logically impossible as we understand them. This would mean that the old "Can God make a rock so heavy He can't lift it" is a valid a difficult question for your view of God. So can he? Why or why not?

It's not logically impossibility. If I believe in God and believe that He is all powerful and all knowing, then it follows that His knowledge is exhaustive. It's logical that our knowledge is finite, although God has revealed all that we need to know.

No on the rock, although any question can be posed. But nothing that God wills or permits can be thwarted.

 

[Athée]

We Christians recognise a spiritual dimension in the world, and in fact, the spiritual realm influences thought so as to produce actions that shape the physical realm (Hebrews 1:14, Luke 6:45).

In Genesis, when God is saying "Let light become!" - who does He say this to? Does He say it to a human? .. no, indeed, He says it to a different kind of observer. God is one such observer named in that text as being present at the time, as we read "God saw the light, that it was good".

We see later on too, that He looked upon mankind with regret, for "their heart's inclination was to evil continuously". It broke His heart and He was sorry He had made them. He was tempted by that despair to destroy them, but Noah's righteousness found favour in God's eyes, and because of that hope through him, the human race was carried on.

This all does seem to show that God is acting with free will, deciding for the purpose of making good with what is available.

Could I just ask for you to include the scriptural reference that you have mentioned in this underlined piece? Thank you, it's just so that I can see the same view that you have.



The humans have weaknesses, and these are potential exploits for those who are devious. Jesus said in John 10:10 that there is a thief who has come to steal, kill and destroy - yet He had come that we may have life abundantly.

Although you are right that God's sovereignty and power is absolute, He still has constraints: He cannot act contrary to His nature. There is an eternal, unchanging law of righteousness that justifies a holy one. A holy one cannot transgress that law and remain justified by it. This means that God's ability to achieve His desire through humans is restricted by our inherent weakness (our tendencies lend us toward transgressing the eternal law and becoming liable for His punishment instead of receiving His power through obedience unto righteousness - Romans 6:16).

(As an aside), I wonder whether you might add value to these thoughts by considering Ezekiel 21:27:

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him."

and Isaiah 5:13-14:

"My people are in captivity for lack of knowledge. Their honorable men are famished and their multitudes parched with thirst. Therefore Sheol has enlarged its gullet and opened its measureless mouth — down goes her glory, her tumult, her uproar, and the revelry in her."

.. so, God has to contend with humans who do not always choose to act in a way that supports His objectives, and this is an opposition to His plan of redemption, especially when it is Christians themselves who are doing so (Jeremiah 23:21-22).

You might be inclined to think that the world would be better if those ones were simply removed from the scene, (and it would), but God is restricted in His ability to execute that judgement according to His ultimate need to remain holy (without blame according to His own law of righteousness): A person cannot receive conviction if they genuinely believe they are doing right - and herein is the core of the problem. So many people in this modern age have yielded to deceptions and false doctrines innocently (2 Peter 2:1-2, 1 John 4:1), that they are in fact with good conscience even when the truth is against them.

Yet, it does not mean that they have His approval either, rather, that their resolve against the truth causes them to hide from Him, refuting all truth that threatens their beliefs, and they even believe that they are blessed when in fact they are cursed (Galatians 1:9, Matthew 6:22-23).

..So what is He to do in order to achieve His objective?

There is hereby two classes of believer: the one who has chosen to deceive themselves by yielding to a false doctrine, becoming enslaved to sin (this happens so easily - as a new Christian is desperate to belong to a church, they will believe answers that don't make sense - twisting the scriptures to support it); Conversely, there is the one who has received an accurate knowledge of God so that they are following His leadership, always doing what He requires of them.

According to these two classes, one is cooperative and willing to obey God, the other is uncooperative and although carrying the identity of belonging to God in the eyes of the world, they do not repent at the word of truth. These two types of people obviously need to be managed in different ways. The one who is obedient is motivated by love, they can have a close relationship with God (John 14:21) and He can give instructions to them to act, which they will follow. The one who is disobedient is motivated by their passions, and as such, their loyalties are toward things of the earth. They will not be able to carry out God's instructions, so they are better controlled through manipulation (consider 1 Kings 22:19-22).

St. Paul wrote of this in Philippians 1:12-18, where he had been imprisoned and some of the false teachers who were teaching Christianity not in accordance with The Holy Spirit of God, they were viewing St Paul as an enemy because they had committed themselves to a false doctrine as I explained. They had become the antichrists that St John wrote of in 1 John 4:5-6. There are many such ones in the world today (having accumulated 2,000 years of false teachings already).

.. so where does that leave us in terms of a conversation and the OP? .. Well, you can see in John 14:21 and Revelation 3:20, that we all have an invitation to pursue a relationship with Him, and to turn over our life to Him so that He can work through us to bring forth the accurate knowledge of His ways, and that leads to the ultimate liberation of the world from it's present course of destruction into paradise (Isaiah 11:9).

But in saying all of this, I now need to see what your thoughts are about what I have said, whether this has been enough already to have helped you see free will. I notice that we haven't yet looked at how prophecy fits with free will, which is the encrypted writings that outline God's plan of redemption. Maybe you would like to bring in some thoughts about that too.

Wow there was a lot there. I think what you have demonstrated is that there is an assumption of free will in the Bible. We use this language of choice and agency because that is our lived experience. It still seems to me though is that this would be an illusion of free will if you have a God who created the universe with a very specific plan. As you implied prophecy has a role in this conversation. If those prophetic events could have only occurred as the end of a chain of human choices, then either it was possible for God to be wrong about the prophecy or, none of those billions of choices could have gone differently. They may have all felt like free will, but if they could not have in fact chosen otherwise can we really call that free will?

 

[Athée]

It's not logically impossibility. If I believe in God and believe that He is all powerful and all knowing, then it follows that His knowledge is exhaustive. It's logical that our knowledge is finite, although God has revealed all that we need to know.

No on the rock, although any question can be posed. But nothing that God wills or permits can be thwarted.

This is the problem I was trying to point out. You just said that God is all powerful and then said he couldn't do something. It seems to me that the more careful position is to say that God can do all things that are logically possible. He can't make a rock He can't pick up because that is logically impossible, He can't make a married bachelor because that is impossible. If you accept this then your belief that free will is consistent with Christian theism despite having acknowledged that it is logically inconsistent, is a contradiction in your worldview that needs to be addressed.

 

[paul1149]

If made in his image really only means making choices then animals are also made in his image right? Also, it seems to me, that just saying we have free will or God is unjust is not a justification that we have free will so much as it is an admission of the problem as you see it. .

There is a difference between man and the animals, according to the Bible. Man alone is made in God's image. Usually we understand that to refer to man's reasoning ability being far above that of the animals, and also the presence of the human spirit. Animals not having those facilities does not mean they don't make choices, but it strains credulity to think they have a moral facility in any way approaching man's.

Do you believe the Bible when it says that the names of the elect are in the book before the world began? If so, then it seems that the vast interconnecting network of human decisions that led to those particular people being saved must has been set before the universe began...

You're repeating yourself. Saying it twice doesn't make it true.