Free will, and original sin --a discussion continued

[fhansen]

Deleted post

 

[JAL]

What kind of god doesn't understand the consequences of His actions?

You're still deviating from the original bone of contention that I was trying to discuss - freedom in Reformed theology.

Also, please don't use needlessly ambiguous, oblique language. If you have a question, make a clear inquiry. Of course God understands what a consequence is. He's not stupid. It's just that I reject foreknowledge - I have my own version of Open Theism - for several reasons. Two examples:
(1) A God who foreknew the Fall would have created Vincent, Bob, and Sally instead of Lucifer, Adam, and Eve, if He is kind.
(2) A God who has foreknowledge has no free will. Free will means deliberating over possible choices in a state of indecision until resoluteness. It doesn't make sense to say, "I already foreknow my choice, but I have not yet decided on my choice. I'm still free to decide."

 

[fhansen]

The Most High God has literally told us EVERYTHING. We reconcile His infiniteness by being His child, just like any child reconciles their parents feats and knowledge by sharing in their genetics, and inheriting the ability to extrapolate what they do because we know they love us, and do not tell us lies.

We have been led, dogmatically, to desire ignorance when it is really control. We think "not knowing" is the MO of the Most High God, when He repeatedly tells us His plan. 2e aren't supposed to be ignorant as Children of the Most High God, because ignorance is a trait of demiurges and darkness.

Yep, no reason to be watchful, vigilant, keep oil in our lamps, or to invest our talents, or to strive or persevere, or be wary of being branches cut back off. Or to work out our salvation in fear and trembling or to be perfect and holy, without which no one sees the Lord (Heb 12:14). Or to remain faithful, remain in Christ, refrain from sin, live in the Spirit rather than the flesh, feed the hungry and clothe the naked, obey the commandments. All of these things that believers are exhorted, warned admonished, encouraged, and instructed to do in order to inherit eternal life.

Daddy will take care of it all, regardless of what we do with the gift He’s given us, as long as we've determined that we believe adequately. And, of course, in that theology, He also withholds the gift from “them”, sending the other part of His human creation to eternal torment. In truth our level of assurance is necessarily connected to both His goodness and trustworthiness and our fruit.

 

[misput]

Thanks! It's pretty rare that people around here like my posts. I guess you're not familiar with my beliefs yet.

No doubt I do not agree with some of your beliefs nor you mine but that does not prevent me from appreciating the things I do agree with.

 

[Kaon]

Yep, no reason to be watchful, vigilant, keep oil in our lamps, or to invest our talents, or to strive or persevere, or be wary of being branches cut back off. Or to work out our salvation in fear and trembling or to be perfect and holy, without which no one sees the Lord (Heb 12:14). Or to remain faithful, remain in Christ, refrain from sin, live in the Spirit rather than the flesh, feed the hungry and clothe the naked, obey the commandments. All of these things that believers are exhorted, warned admonished, encouraged, and instructed to do in order to inherit eternal life.

Daddy will take care of it all, regardless of what we do with the gift He’s given us, as long as we've determined that we believe adequately. And, of course, in that theology, He also withholds the gift from “them”, sending the other part of His human creation to eternal torment. In truth our level of assurance is necessarily connected to both His goodness and trustworthiness and our fruit.

I think you misunderstand me.

In this finite linear temporal life, we still have to justify our faith with works - otherwise we are deluding ourselves. That means [trying your best] to follow every single law of the Most High God according to His commands - not what we determine is applicable.

It also means absolutely working out your salvation with "fear and trembling". While the Most High God has told us everything, and He has already chosen His election from the foundations of the world, you do not know who you are except by your faith. Justifying your faith, and following the commandments of the Most High God is for your benefit - so you can know why you belong where you are now. In other words, you have evidence to support why you deserve to be with/out the Most High God. It is a circular activity that seems paradoxical, but is actually basic.

We have imprisoned ourselves by running from the fact that we only have the freedom to respond to our surroundings in spirit (no 100% free will). And, we do this by creating dogma and logic that attempts to bring Creation to "our level". Except, we are ignorant; we have all of the secrets and knowledge available and we neither think for ourselves, nor do we know how to approach our Father to help guide us. The Most High God has already put His statutes and laws on our hearts so much so that we do not have to ask our neighbor who He is: we will know. We are doomed to continue to repeat iterations of "past history" if we continue to follow men and keep Him on the back burner - like an idol, or sky fairy. He is the Father to Creation.

"Not knowing" has never been the MO of the Most High God especially when it comes to our salvation. Everyone who is of the Most High God will know His voice, and will know what He wants them to know.

 

[misput]

I think you misunderstand me.

In this finite linear temporal life, we still have to justify our faith with works - otherwise we are deluding ourselves. That means [trying your best] to follow every single law of the Most High God according to His commands - not what we determine is applicable.

It also means absolutely working out your salvation with "fear and trembling". While the Most High God has told us everything, and He has already chosen His election from the foundations of the world, you do not know who you are except by your faith. Justifying your faith, and following the commandments of the Most High God is for your benefit - so you can know why you belong where you are now. In other words, you have evidence to support why you deserve to be with/out the Most High God. It is a circular activity that seems paradoxical, but is actually basic.

We have imprisoned ourselves by running from the fact that we only have the freedom to respond to our surroundings in spirit (no 100% free will). And, we do this by creating dogma and logic that attempts to bring Creation to "our level". Except, we are ignorant; we have all of the secrets and knowledge available and we still do not think for ourselves, nor do we know how to approach our Father to help guide us. The Most High God has already put His statutes and laws on our hearts so much so that we do not have to ask our neighbor who He is: we will know. We are doomed to continue to repeat iterations of "past history" if we continue to follow men and keep Him on the back burner - like an idol, or sky fairy. He is a Father to Creation.

"Not knowing" has never been the MO of the Most High God especially when it comes to our salvation. Everyone who is of the Most High God will know His voice, and will know what He wants them to know.

Heavy on the trying but not relying our works to save us and yes, God chose His elect collectively, not individually. Good post.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We don't have to accept. We cannot accept without grace, without God's movement within us, and yet we can still resist and reject that grace.

Agreed, but that grace that can be resisted is not the entrance of the Holy Spirit; it is not the Regeneration. Those God has chosen, (while I grant that God will deal with them before Regeneration), will indeed be regenerated, and not because they gave their permission, (though granted, not as though at that point they reject him any more). God does not need our permission to do as he has planned all along for us. It is for this we are made. We are not complete, not whole, persons, until then. In fact, even the Redeemed on this temporal earth, the sons of God, are yet to be revealed.

 

[Kaon]

Heavy on the trying but not relying our works to save us and yes, God chose His elect collectively, not individually. Good post.

Yes.

Heavy on the trying, without negating the magnitude of the necessity to do.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In this finite linear temporal life, we still have to justify our faith with works - otherwise we are deluding ourselves.

I assume you mean, to demonstrate our faith? Because how are we weak silly humans able to justify what is already genuine, because of and only by the grace of God?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Man's will has no role to play if he's not responsible for his own corruption, and then has no choice in consenting to his own justification and salvation.

He IS responsible for his own corruption. Again, don't pretend that we are not totally cooperative with our fallen nature. We might blame Adam that we are born in sin, yet we are glad for it, and indulge in it. No, it is OUR fallen nature.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Um..yes we CAN and SHOULD blame Him, if He designed us to sin inexorably. Put the blame where it belongs. And if you don't like where that leads, change your theology.

No, my man. One's logic does not supersede the authority of Scripture. If you come up with something that denies Scripture, think again. BTW, your term "designed...inexorably" as you use it there, is a bit vague. Don't pretend that we are not totally and willfully involved in our own sin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Most High God has literally told us EVERYTHING. We reconcile His "infiniteness" by being His child, just like any child reconciles their parents'
feats and knowledge by sharing in their genetics, and inheriting the ability to extrapolate what they do because we know they love us, and do not tell us lies.

We have been led, dogmatically, to desire ignorance when it is really control. We think "not knowing" is the MO of the Most High God, when He repeatedly tells us His plan. We aren't supposed to be ignorant as Children of the Most High God, because ignorance is a trait of demiurges and darkness.

I'm not sure what you are saying. It seems you are saying that since he has told us everything (which by the way I agree with) that we therefore are capable as humans of understanding it all? I disagree with that; even as redeemed, that will not happen until we "arrive". Even then we will explore his "infinity".

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes a free will to do whatever you like but not you free will to do the will of God...we are unspiritual and God is Spirit, two different nature...

Exactly. Well said.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If he is controlling us then logically we aren't choosing. In my replies here, i asked/referenced the Lord's prayer. What is in that prayer, the answer is


You just made an analogy of God and a child messing around on an ants nest.


The original question is copy pasted by you in the opening post and paraphrased in every quote of mine. "I assume it to bring into view the difference in original sin...." what are you talking about, everything you just said here is irrelevant to what I asked in regards to your views and the Fall. This is not what i've asked you. You are dancing around this and replying in a way to take my argument out of the context because you know you are failing to make any sense.

Not that this analogy applies, but to demonstrate a principle. Even a robot chooses. And its choice has results. Likewise with the ants, they respond to stimulus according to their nature. If you want to call that their programming, ok, I don't mind. How many levels above that are we? But we are willful, and our nature can be seen to determine our choices EVERY time. If God saw to it that each of us is subject to that nature, that does not deny our responsibility for our own sin, nor our responsibility to fight our own sin nature.

Does the principle suddenly change simply because it is God? Is is delusional to blame one's upbringing or genetics or other circumstances for our crimes. How does God's use of those things make it any different as far as our own responsibility?

 

[1Reformedman]

Does this debate ever bear any good fruit?

Good fruit is subjectively perceived is it not?

 

[Kaon]

I'm not sure what you are saying. It seems you are saying that since he has told us everything (which by the way I agree with) that we therefore are capable as humans of understanding it all? I disagree with that; even as redeemed, that will not happen until we "arrive". Even then we will explore his "infinity".

We don't have to understand everything to understand... everything.

It is His pleasure, just like any parent, to want to see us be "children forever" by comparison to Him. Since He generates infinities (all of them), He can actually see this done. That is why He continuously says we have to have the spirit of a child to be with Him: we are going to be His literal children forever (even if we are great compared to everything else). We can still learn an infinite amount of stuff and things while at the same time remaining as children compared to the Most High God. And, indeed we have to continuously have the mentality and spirit of a child (open-mindedness, trust, faith, kindness, charity, etc.)

 

[1Reformedman]

Not that this analogy applies, but to demonstrate a principle. Even a robot chooses. And its choice has results. Likewise with the ants, they respond to stimulus according to their nature. If you want to call that their programming, ok, I don't mind. How many levels above that are we? But we are willful, and our nature can be seen to determine our choices EVERY time. If God saw to it that each of us is subject to that nature, that does not deny our responsibility for our own sin, nor our responsibility to fight our own sin nature.

Does the principle suddenly change simply because it is God? Is is delusional to blame one's upbringing or genetics or other circumstances for our crimes. How does God's use of those things make it any different as far as our own responsibility?

You asked:
Is is delusional to blame one's upbringing or genetics or other circumstances for our crimes? How does God's use of those things make it any different as far as our own responsibility?

I believe it is wrong to blame your surroundings for how you turned out. I know of many people who grew up in families and neighborhoods filled full of addicts and criminals but there are some who lived in those families and communities who didn't turn out that way. So how did they make it through without becoming a "product of their environment"? They chose not to be one and its that simple.

The way I grew up I thought it was normal to drink alcohol to excess because many People I was around were drunks, addicts and criminals, but that was my wrong thinking not what others told me. Even if others had told me such a thing it would still have been inaccurate and not true.

 

[1Reformedman]

It is impossible to reconcile free will with omniscience. End of discussion.

Youare right is is iMPOSSIBLE to reconcile free will with God's

The two exist. The two cannot be reconciled by man.
But with God.........the two can exist.

Not is it relates to free will choice unto salvation it can't be reconciled and the reason for that is very simple. The human will is NEVER TRULY FREE. Its either in bondage to Sin or God. You can't have it both ways.

 

[1Reformedman]

It is impossible to reconcile free will with omniscience. End of discussion.

Agreed because free will is incompatible with an in bondage will because the will is NEVER TRULY Free. Its either in bondage to sin or in bondage to God.

 

[1Reformedman]

Mans unique abilities are manifested by constraints and so reflect God's nature.
Where animals suffer, man innovates. God re-created us in His image.

Where does the bible say God "re-created" us in his image?