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Featured Free will, and original sin --a discussion continued

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Quayle, Dec 23, 2019.

  1. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is a reply to Cis.jd, where I am unable to reply within the thread, since replies have been closed off:

    Cis.jd says:
    "The way i cite scripture isn't by cherry picking verses and taking part in an "interpretation battle" but using references in the Bible (or just general theology)

    "For example if your arguments (or your interpretation to all the verses cite for your support) about predestination and everything you just said here is correct, then explain to me this:

    "In Genesis with Eve taking from the tree did God predestined his creation to disobey, so he created disobedience to him, meant for us to be sinners, and then cursed us anyway?

    "Since God predestined everything – he created/destined our own choice, salvation, sin, everything, then you cannot love him, nor believe in him. You where just made on auto-pilot to only obey him, simple as that, and therefore nothing is good, nothing is righteous."


    My reply follows:

    You make a huge logical jump saying "...God predestined his creation to disobey, SO he created disobedience..." "So" there, being another way of saying, "therefore". The logic is wrong.

    You do the same thing again by saying, "...he created/destined our own choice, salvation, sin, everything, THEN you cannot love him, nor believe in him." "Then" there, being another way of saying, "therefore". The logic is again wrong.

    It is human logic, that denies God's transcendence. We cannot blame God for our sin. We can indeed credit him for providing a way for us to see our unworthiness of his grace. As Clete has said to me, I want my cake and eat it too, and I suppose what I just said sounds like that, but no, God can do only good. If my logic is bad, ok, I relent, because I accept the fact that God can not sin above my logic, but God providing for us to behave according to our sinful nature is not the same as God making us robots.

    Nor, even, is he to blame for Adam and Eve's sin, though they did it without an original sin nature. As I like to say, "Don't pretend that we are unwilling participants in our own sin."
     
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  2. BarnyFyfe

    BarnyFyfe Deputy Seventh-day Adventist

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    Does this debate ever bear any good fruit?
     
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  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Another christian website bans the topic.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    It is impossible to reconcile free will with omniscience. End of discussion.
     
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  5. BarnyFyfe

    BarnyFyfe Deputy Seventh-day Adventist

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    I actually saw a thread here claiming that God Himself is not free to choose. Talk about your rabbit holes.
     
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  6. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh yes, definitely. I never even knew what I was learning about God through hard experience and study was so close to Reformed Theology, till someone told me about it. God does WHATEVER he will.

    In spite of all the things I had tried to do to ameliorate my sin, following all the teachings that were so good and true, I had to learn to learn that God owes us nothing, and that my understanding was weak and silly and unable to do what only God can do. God took all that sin upon himself, and ironically, even that, he did for his own sake.

    When I began to read the Reformed teachers, they clarified my thinking and gave me confidence in how to tell others about this great God. I'm hoping others will become corrected and honed in their understanding of just how good God is, and come to understand just how desperate our need is for him.
     
  7. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So no free will? Good.

    What about choice?
     
  8. BarnyFyfe

    BarnyFyfe Deputy Seventh-day Adventist

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    How can the finite human mind truly reconcile anything with omniscience?
     
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  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The two exist. The two cannot be reconciled by man.
    But with God.........the two can exist.
     
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  10. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I wish people would understand that Calvinism (or Reformed Theology) does not deny choice, so that is what I call free will, when I can. But first, in talking to people, it is pretty much always necessary to define terms the best I can. Most people haven't really thought about what it means to say "free will". They just seem to assume God is hands off in our decisions.
     
  11. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agreed. But what do you mean by "free will" then? Choice, definitely. Lack of bondage or influence? --never.
     
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Impossible to reconcile. There is no discussion available.
     
  13. BarnyFyfe

    BarnyFyfe Deputy Seventh-day Adventist

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    Corrected, honed, clarified thinking, understanding. Can't the Bible do all that?
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But we try. And when we do so with any hint of our participation in our own salvation, being dead spiritually, how can we possibly do something apart from God, to bring some kind of mechanical operation into play, that will cause God to react in our favor?
     
  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Mans unique abilities are manifested by constraints and so reflect God's nature.
    Where animals suffer, man innovates. God re-created us in His image.
     
  16. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It did, and continues to do so. But there are teachers, as it should be.
     
  17. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Impossible? So what do you mean by free will? Do you really think we can do anything apart from God? He says otherwise.
     
  18. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Try to stick to my comment rather than agree with your own response to it.
    Impossible to reconcile the two.
     
  19. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Impossible to reconcile the two.
    But with God....it is possible.
    Logically....no.
     
  20. BarnyFyfe

    BarnyFyfe Deputy Seventh-day Adventist

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    And there are other teachers as it should be.
     
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