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Free will, and original sin --a discussion continued

1Reformedman

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Your claims are not biblical. You are doing nothing different then the same cherry picking of verses to suit your views, the same thing that JW's, mormons, and everybody else does. It's a form of self-rationalism used to pose as a shield from intelligent reasoning that is threatening your views.

We have the natural ability to obey spiritual laws, you want to know why that is fact? Because there are many different spiritual laws. Every denomination believes in different spiritual laws.

God does not select or destines anybody to being lost. People can become lost based on different reasons. As christians we are sent to help the lost. What is the use of evangelism and giving the good news to win him disciples if there are certain people who are just predetermined to be lost?


My, my, my, if that isnt a baseless assertion and no evidence to back them up. You call it cherry-picking but you can't substantiate the claim. If you could you'd do more than just say NUH UH as a reply!! If you could you'd have shown how I cherry-pick and you'd show how I took the verses out of context. Yet you did neither.

You say we have the natural moral ability to obey spiritual laws yet the bible says if you break one you've broken them all. Jesus came because we couldn't obey them under our natural moral abilities. Furthermore, the Bible is clear that the unbeliever cannot understand spiritual things.
 
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1Reformedman

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And allegiance and agreement on certain points are synonymous. Got it.
I agree with my neighbor that keeping the grass cut down to the dirt is a good way to keep snakes from hiding in my lawn but he has a John Deere and I have a Cub Cadet.

But no unambiguous Scriptural evidence for this pontificating blurb, as usual. Correct?
Just the same old tired and tiring "free will robs God of His glory."
Free will is false teaching, pride fused, pagan doctrine that crept into the RCC long, long ago. Educate yourself on that fact
 
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1Reformedman

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Your claims are not biblical. You are doing nothing different then the same cherry picking of verses to suit your views, the same thing that JW's, mormons, and everybody else does. It's a form of self-rationalism used to pose as a shield from intelligent reasoning that is threatening your views.

We have the natural ability to obey spiritual laws, you want to know why that is fact? Because there are many different spiritual laws. Every denomination believes in different spiritual laws.

God does not select or destines anybody to being lost. People can become lost based on different reasons. As christians we are sent to help the lost. What is the use of evangelism and giving the good news to win him disciples if there are certain people who are just predetermined to be lost?

Romans 9:22 says that God created vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. Educate yourself.
 
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JAL

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God does not condemn for his pleasure and glory, except as in it shows his power and justice to the whole of humanity, and even to the angels. He did not create the ultimately lost, predestining them to the eternal perdition just for that, but as part of what it took produce his special creation. When you say he predestines them to die and is happy about it, you need to finish the sentence. There is much more to it than that.
People sometimes line up dominoes for the fun of watching the domino effect. Wouldn't that game be pretty boring if you were God? There would be no chance of failure, right? So where's the fun? Reformed theologians want us to believe that God, for the fun of it, setup an inexorable process known as double-predistination. How is this fun? Just to watch His Son die on the cross? Just to watch billions burning in hell?

There is much more to it than that.
You're right. God is evidently far more sadistic than we thought.

And by the way, Christ's temptation in the wilderness was evidently a sham, since Reformed theology doesn't accept the idea of liberterian freedom.
 
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Billy UK

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I believe free will is the power of choice which through the conscience evidently exists in each individual through their ability to choose what to partake in good or evil.

This is why God will use the conscience in judgment as we chose to do either good or evil while our conscience bears witness.

Romans 2:15-16 (KJV)

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel
 
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JAL

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I believe free will is the power of choice which through the conscience evidently exists in each individual through their ability to choose what to partake in good or evil.

This is why God will use the conscience in judgment as we chose to do either good or evil while our conscience bears witness.

Romans 2:15-16 (KJV)

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel
Nice observation. Thank you.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Actually I'm not sure that "There is much more to it than that." Either way, what you described is perfectly evil and dishonest behavior (at least according to my definition) and thus could only serve to undermine my Christian hope. To classify the innocent as guilty (innocent by my definition) is blatant dishonesty (by my definition).
Then how do you handle the reasoning about the Potter's freedom? There is nobody innocent --according to Scripture. Why must your definition rule?
 
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Mark Quayle

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People sometimes line up dominoes for the fun of watching the domino effect. Wouldn't that game be pretty boring if you were God? There would be no chance of failure, right? So where's the fun? Reformed theologians want us to believe that God, for the fun of it, setup an inexorable process known as double-predistination. How is this fun? Just to watch His Son die on the cross? Just to watch billions burning in hell?

You're right. God is evidently far more sadistic than we thought.

And by the way, Christ's temptation in the wilderness was evidently a sham, since Reformed theology doesn't accept the idea of liberterian freedom.
Perhaps I didn't mention that God uses means, to accomplish his ends. By the way, while I don't generally disagree with Reformed Theology, and I do enjoy it, it is not my guide. The Bible, and I pray the Spirit within me, and experience, and reasoning are my guides. But I do like it when old dead guys agree with me.
 
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JAL

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Then how do you handle the reasoning about the Potter's freedom?
You'll need to be more specific if you have an objection. I already addressed Roman 9:22 at post 254. Let me recap a basic hermeneutical principle. Since exegesis is fallible, we NEED the law of non-contradiction to help us red-flag our errors. Therefore if your theology ends up looking like like this:
(1) God is impeccably kind and holy.
(2) AND He is also cruel and dishonest
then it's time to fix your theology. I don't care if you have a million verses that SEEM to backup those two propositions, you cannot rationally accept them both. It is YOUR responsibility to go back and reinterpret the million verses in a consistent manner. Does that help?
There is nobody innocent --according to Scripture. Why must your definition rule?
Rule what? The only thing my definition rules is my own hope. If God is both capriciously cruel and dishonest (by my definition), I have no real hope, for obvious reasons.
 
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JAL

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There is nobody innocent --according to Scripture.
I agree. The issue here is, Why are they guilty? Because they sinned by real libertarian freedom? Or by God's design?
 
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Mark Quayle

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People sometimes line up dominoes for the fun of watching the domino effect. Wouldn't that game be pretty boring if you were God? There would be no chance of failure, right? So where's the fun? Reformed theologians want us to believe that God, for the fun of it, setup an inexorable process known as double-predistination. How is this fun? Just to watch His Son die on the cross? Just to watch billions burning in hell?

You're right. God is evidently far more sadistic than we thought.

And by the way, Christ's temptation in the wilderness was evidently a sham, since Reformed theology doesn't accept the idea of liberterian freedom.

I see no sadism from God's purposes, nor even from Reformed Theology concerning God's purposes.

To me, it makes sense that God would not create for the purpose of destruction alone. Not only is that counter-productive but would bring no glory to him. So I say he created them "to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory." (From the Potter and the Clay discourse, Romans 9.) The condemned are created for the purpose of accomplishing what he set out to do from the beginning.

I'm not sure you answered me last night about your stand on the Authority of Scripture. If you wish to argue the matter from non-scriptural thought, we can do that.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You'll need to be more specific if you have an objection. I already addressed Roman 9:22 at post 254. Let me recap a basic hermeneutical principle. Since exegesis is fallible, we NEED the law of non-contradiction to help us red-flag our errors. Therefore if your theology ends up looking like like this:
(1) God is impeccably kind and holy.
(2) AND He is also cruel and dishonest
then it's time to fix your theology. I don't care if you have a million verses that SEEM to backup those two propositions, you cannot rationally accept them both. It is YOUR responsibility to go back and reinterpret the million verses in a consistent manner. Does that help?
Rule what? The only thing my definition rules is my own hope. If God is both capriciously cruel and dishonest (by my definition), I have no real hope, for obvious reasons.
I don't support (2) (i.e. "He is also cruel and dishonest"). No need to find verses to support it. They don't. Your translation of what I say to mean that is mistaken.
 
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JAL

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I don't support (2) (i.e. "He is also cruel and dishonest"). No need to find verses to support it. They don't. Your translation of what I say to mean that is mistaken.
No what I'm saying is, since I don't speak Chinese, that vocabulary is useless to me as an exegete. As an exegete, I am forced to understand Scripture in terms of my own words - my own definitions. By MY definition, double predestination makes for a dishonest and cruel God. That contradicts the OTHER verses where He is said to be holy.

I can't accept both conclusions, if I claim to be rational.

I don't see why you are balking at this analysis.
 
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JAL

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I see no sadism from God's purposes, nor even from Reformed Theology concerning God's purposes.
Call it sadism, call it cruelty, call it whatever you like. Double predestination is incredibly evil.
I'm not sure you answered me last night about your stand on the Authority of Scripture.
Scripture is inerrant, but I have no direct access to Scripture, only to my interpretations (typically from exegesis, or perhaps from direct revelations). When I say, "my interpretations" it means those conclusions that I feel certain about. Thus my final authority in all matters, ultimately, is feelings of certainty (conscience). In fact I will look to Scripture only to the extent that I feel certain it is the right thing to do. As for me, I actually feel quite certain that we should spend far more time seeking direct revelations than practicing exegesis.

If you don't like the term "authority" substitute your preferred term such as "obligation".

Not sure if that answers your question.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No what I'm saying is, since I don't speak Chinese, that vocabulary is useless to me as an exegete. As an exegete, I am forced to understand Scripture in terms of my own words - my own definitions. By MY definition, double predestination makes for a dishonest and cruel God. That contradicts the OTHER verses where He is said to be holy.

I can't accept both conclusions, if I claim to be rational.

I don't see why you are balking at this analysis.

Please don't take this as antagonistic, when I say I can see that is how you draw your conclusions. But there may be the problem --you seem to feel you MUST draw a conclusion to the matter. It took me many years to see I need to be patient with Scripture, and not draw conclusions where my supposed exegesis drew contradictions either in Scripture or in my analysis of my experiences. "Free will" not only doesn't make sense to me (both from logic and from experience), but I don't find it Scriptural, though I tried to earlier in life.

I have drawn many conclusions now, but like before, they are only what I see now, and not only incomplete but subject to correction. By no means are they final. Some BIG ones have been replaced with what seems to me now much more sound (and satisfying). For example, I used to say, and believe, that my future was in God's hands. Yet my theology had it that it depended on me. But now I can SEE how it is in God's hands.
Call it sadism, call it cruelty, call it whatever you like. Double predestination is incredibly evil.
Scripture is inerrant, but I have no direct access to Scripture, only to my interpretations (typically from exegesis, or perhaps from direct revelations). When I say, "my interpretations" it means those conclusions that I feel certain about. Thus my final authority in all matters, ultimately, is feelings of certainty (conscience). In fact I will look to Scripture only to the extent that I feel certain it is the right thing to do. As for me, I actually feel quite certain that we should spend far more time seeking direct revelations than practicing exegesis.

If you don't like the term "authority" substitute your preferred term such as "obligation".

Not sure if that answers your question.
Yes, it does. Thank you.

I'm thinking I haven't properly dealt with your claim that you MUST go with your definitions. Certainly, both eisegesis and exegesis (as we do it --not perfectly) require the use definitions, but to instantly trust my definitions and draw logical conclusions as a result is full of pitfalls.

There is no need to do that. Provisional conclusions, ok. Spending a LOT of time in Scripture is useful in correcting definitions. Reading whole books, whole sections if you can, of Scripture shows parallels the parallel versions don't show. One thing ties to another and whole new themes show themselves.

Many of those themes are so compelling I can't ignore them. My "exegesis" (such as it is) is constantly improved from seeing these things concerning God, his nature, his purposes, his methods and means, his delight in whom he has chosen to place his particular Love... and their nature --incomplete and hardly worth dignifying as a being apart from him, and with him they are only dignified by his indwelling and purposes for them.

All these are assumptions, or concepts (and even the compelling are weak) that go into the ongoing definitions, I (granted) MUST use the best I can.

FWIW the Reformers are always reforming, or should be. It is Scripture that guides us, and we pray for God's Spirit to guide us (call it Direct Revelation, if you wish, but I think many would say the definition of DR shows it to be something else) in life and in exegesis.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Call it sadism, call it cruelty, call it whatever you like. Double predestination is incredibly evil.
Scripture is inerrant, but I have no direct access to Scripture, only to my interpretations (typically from exegesis, or perhaps from direct revelations). When I say, "my interpretations" it means those conclusions that I feel certain about. Thus my final authority in all matters, ultimately, is feelings of certainty (conscience). In fact I will look to Scripture only to the extent that I feel certain it is the right thing to do. As for me, I actually feel quite certain that we should spend far more time seeking direct revelations than practicing exegesis.

If you don't like the term "authority" substitute your preferred term such as "obligation".

Not sure if that answers your question.
For what it is worth also, many many Reformed believers reject the term, "double predestination" for the very reasons I mentioned about God's purposes. Others who claim to be Reformed disagree that God purposed the outcome of eternal damnation for any individual. I say, again, that he purposed it but not it alone. He did not create the non-elect for the purpose alone of condemning them, nor is he to be blamed for their "freely willed" sin. His purposes are about his Glory --not about them.
 
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JAL

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Please don't take this as antagonistic, when I say I can see that is how you draw your conclusions. But there may be the problem --you seem to feel you MUST draw a conclusion to the matter. It took me many years to see I need to be patient with Scripture, and not draw conclusions where my supposed exegesis drew contradictions either in Scripture or in my analysis of my experiences.
More patience? The moment we see ANY SIGN of apparent contradiction, we should be running in the other direction. Had the church done this 2,000 years ago, our theology would be much better today. Look, there are 100 billion souls born since creation. The stakes are too high - there's too much at risk for complacency with bad theology.
"Free will" not only doesn't make sense to me (both from logic and from experience), but I don't find it Scriptural, though I tried to earlier in life.
Look, it's as a simple as this:
(1) Free will seems to be a fact of experience. All of us make decisions every day.
(2) Without it, theology becomes self-contradictory, for example a God who claims to be fair but condemns men for reasons beyond their control.
I'm thinking I haven't properly dealt with your claim that you MUST go with your definitions. Certainly, both eisegesis and exegesis (as we do it --not perfectly) require the use definitions, but to instantly trust my definitions and draw logical conclusions as a result is full of pitfalls.
Again:
(1) If you don't speak Chinese, that vocabulary is useless. You can only THINK in terms of YOUR definitions.
(2) There is no need to draw all the conclusions that I advise. You just need to be logically consistent. If your theology undermines hope, just be honest about it. And then explain why the Bible SEEMS to proffer hope - you'll need to reevaluate all those verses.
 
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JAL

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For what it is worth also, many many Reformed believers reject the term, "double predestination" for the very reasons I mentioned about God's purposes.
If everything is by God's design - if there is no libertarian freedom - then it still amounts to double predestination. They can deny it all they want but if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
 
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Mark Quayle

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More patience? The moment we see ANY SIGN of apparent contradiction, we should be running in the other direction. Had the church done this 2,000 years ago, our theology would be much better today. Look, there are 100 billion souls born since creation. The stakes are too high - there's too much at risk for complacency with bad theology.
Look, it's as a simple as this:
(1) Free will seems to be a fact of experience. All of us make decisions every day.
(2) Without it, theology becomes self-contradictory, for example a God who claims to be fair but condemns men reasons beyond their control.
Again:
(1) If you don't speak Chinese, that vocabulary is useless. You can only THINK in terms of YOUR definitions.
(2) There is no need to draw all the conclusions that I advise. You just need to be logically consistent. If your theology undermines hope, just be honest about it. And then explain why the Bible SEEMS to proffer hope - you'll need to reevaluate all those verses.
More patience, bro. I agree we shouldn't accept apparent contradictions, but to decide therefore instantly that I am wrong (or right) about my presumptions, I need further study. The contradictions are necessarily in my mind, and are from ignorance or worse. "The other way" will introduce other, sometimes old, contradictions, already dealt with over time. One uncle of mine had a habit of saying, since he believed (from Scripture, he said) both Predestination and Free Will, that they were in Spiritual tension, and could not be explained or combined in logic. I don't think he looked much further than that.

I hope to never be complacent with Bad Theology --that's a big part of the reason I am on this and other Forums and discussion groups. If my Theology undermines hope (and for me, mine does just the opposite), I try to be honest about it, intellectually honest, and admit I don't yet have an answer, and to be compelled to look further. Same for apparent contradictions.

I don't know who I've said what to, having written so many responses to you and Clete and Cis.jd, but I think I've been logically consistent, even admitting to things I desire to look into more. When you, and others, have taken me to be otherwise, I usually find them pointing out their re-interpretations of what I am say, or their logical extrapolations of it --not mine. Some have even said that I claim God is evil, or that evil is good, or sin is obedience. Ludicrous.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If everything is by God's design - if there is no libertarian freedom - then it still amounts to double predestination. They can deny it all they want but if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Maybe I need to hear your definition of "libertarian freedom", and who it necessarily applies to in your thinking.
 
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