Free Will and Evil

[Gene Parmesan]

You're correct to assume God is perfectly good, but then you go on to assume he implants bad desires in us and controls us to act on those desires, almost as if it's him doing it and not us. No, obviously something that's perfectly good would not do that. What he does do is give us the option to desire what is good(Godly desires) or desire what is bad(not Godly desires) and leaves it to us to act on those desires.

I reject the notion that perfect goodness implants bad desires in such a way that it's inevitable that we'll act on them. It's a contradiction to think in this way.

If God knew exactly everything we would ever do before He created us, and He has the option to create us in a way where we do different things, there is no way around the fact that free will is an illusion and God is entirely culpable.

 

[Chriliman]

If God knew exactly everything we would ever do before He created us, and He has the option to create us in a way where we do different things, there is no way around the fact that free will is an illusion and God is entirely culpable.

Yes, God knew exactly what would happen and that the end result was good, which is why He did it. However, just because God has knowledge of what you'll choose to do, doesn't mean he takes direct control of your will and does it for you.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Yes, God knew exactly what would happen and that the end result was good, which is why He did it. However, just because God has knowledge of what you'll choose to do, doesn't mean he takes direct control of your will and does it for you.

Did God create you? Your spirit and everything? He had absolute control over every aspect of how your life would turn out prior to your creation and proceeded in such a way that that would come to be even though He could have done otherwise.

You said it yourself, "God knew exactly what would happen and that the end result was good, which is why He did it." The entirety of creation was determined before He created a single thing. The entire thing was orchestrated to turn out exactly as God willed it. And if that is the case, can we supersede His will?

 

[Chriliman]

Did God create you? Your spirit and everything? He had absolute control over every aspect of how your life would turn out prior to your creation and proceeded in such a way that that would come to be even though He could have done otherwise.

You said it yourself, "God knew exactly what would happen and that the end result was good, which is why He did it." The entirety of creation was determined before He created a single thing. The entire thing was orchestrated to turn out exactly as God willed it. And if that is the case, can we supersede His will?

You can supersede his will, but only for a finite amount of time before he convinces you that his will is the best way.

You don't have to take direct control of someones will in order to convince them of what's true and good. It just takes a lot of love.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

If God knew exactly everything we would ever do before He created us, and He has the option to create us in a way where we do different things, there is no way around the fact that free will is an illusion and God is entirely culpable.

Free will is, in fact, an illusion.

Mortals with fallibility are categorically disqualified from having free will; their actions are moved by "another."

That includes Christians; no Christian has free will. This is something God has implicitly, and explicitly said in the bible.

Only perfect beings have free will, but they abdicate their will to God 100% - until they don't (angel rebellion 1, 2, archon rebellion, principality and power rebellion, and to come.)

I don't think there is one place in the canon or apocrypha that states imperfect, murderous, lying, theving, immoral spiritual derelicts (AKA humans, and the rest of the fallen lot) have free will. Those type of creatures have limited choice: given a set of conditions (e.g. temptation,) imperfect mortal beings have the freedom to choose how to respond to stimuli.

So, you are not in control of your own destiny, as the Western saying goes: you are, rather, responsible for the choices you make.

 

[Chriliman]

Free will is, in fact, an illusion.

Mortals with fallibility are categorically disqualified from having free will; their actions are moved by "another."

That includes Christians; no Christian has free will. This is something God has implicitly, and explicitly said in the bible.

Only perfect beings have free will, but they abdicate their will to God 100% - until they don't (angel rebellion 1, 2, archon rebellion, principality and power rebellion, and to come.)

I don't think there is one place in the canon or apocrypha that states imperfect, murderous, lying, theving, immoral spiritual derelicts (AKA humans, and the rest of the fallen lot) have free will. Those type of creatures have limited choice: given a set of conditions (e.g. temptation,) imperfect mortal beings have the freedom to choose how to respond to stimuli.

So, you are not in control of your own destiny, as the Western saying goes: you are, rather, responsible for the choices you make.

If there are beings who truly have free will, then how is free will an illusion?

We may temporarily fall into illusion through wrong beliefs and deception, but that doesn't mean free will is an illusion, especially since God Himself actually has free will.

 

[SPF]

I tend to agree with Jonathan Edwards who said that at any given time we act according to our greatest inclination.

Now, it is very true and worth pointing out that our greatest inclination can be influenced on a variety of different levels at any given time when we choose to act.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

If there are beings who truly have free will, then how is free will an illusion?

We may temporarily fall into illusion through wrong beliefs and deception, but that doesn't mean free will is an illusion, especially since God Himself actually has free will.

I'll use context clues to conclude he means free will for God's creation (humans) is an illusion.

 

[Chriliman]

I'll use context clues to conclude he means free will for God's creation (humans) is an illusion.

I know that's what he means, but I don't understand why he thinks God can't create humans to have free will, whom by their own will(which God has given them) can listen and obey God(as Jesus did) or not(as Adam did).

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I know that's what he means, but I don't understand why he thinks God can't create humans to have free will, whom by their own will(which God has given them) can listen and obey God(as Jesus did) or not(as Adam did).

So we'd have to potentially answer two questions. Is it logically possible to have an entity like God, who exists outside of time, create all of existence from the beginning to end with the power to create it all any way He desires, and do so while His creations maintain free will.

I'd say that does not seem logically possible. So if that's the case, can God can do something that is logically impossible? Create a married bachelor, for example. If He can, then there is no problem here. But if He cannot, I don't see any other conclusion to draw but free will being an illusion.

 

[Chriliman]

So we'd have to potentially answer two questions. Is it logically possible to have an entity like God, who exists outside of time, create all of existence from the beginning to end with the power to create it all any way He desires, and do so while His creations maintain free will.

Yes, it is possible, but once a free willed being has freely followed his own desires into sin and death(the result of separation from God) he cannot willingly save himself(no longer has free will), God's loving actions save him.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Yes, it is possible, but once a free willed being has freely followed his own desires into sin and death(the result of separation from God) he cannot willingly save himself, God's loving actions save him.

Within the story of God and creation, everything is determined at the point of creation. God is outside of time. He created the end within the same instance as the beginning. You cannot do anything differently than what God has determined to be. Not a thing.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

If there are beings who truly have free will, then how is free will an illusion?

We may temporarily fall into illusion through wrong beliefs and deception, but that doesn't mean free will is an illusion, especially since God Himself actually has free will.

Will and choice are misnomers coupled. Free choice doesn't necessarily imply free will. At best, it implies extremely limited will - the capability to make a choice in an instantaneous moment, and therefore the ability to manifest that will.

If someone puts a gun to a father's head, and tells him to choose his favorite child, he is being afforded a choice. Clearly, that situation is not one for which a father would will; indeed, the father has no will, except to choose to respond to stimuli presented to him in that instant (as being taken hostage and choosing your favorite child to die is NOT the will of a father - ever):

The father can choose his favorite child, and watch it die.

The father can choose his not so favorite child, and watch it die.

The father can (un)consciously develope a 4000% increase in endocrinological function, and attempt to take on the gunperson. AKA Fight or flight.

The father can choose to take the bullet.

That is what the father has as his choices; his will to execute something is incredibly marginalized - especially with the constraint that all "family" members are not hurt. We don't control our destinies; we make the choices to respond to them. Philosophically, if we all worked together for all of our interests instead of selfishly, our limited will would afford us ideal choices. Instead of a gun to a head, perhaps it is headship position in a nation that needs a champion to fight "evil."

This is why Love is so important: if we all loved each other, then we wouldn't worry about making our own destiny with the illusion of GODLY, completely free will. We would be trying to make the next persons' life a living heaven with the limited would have.

This is why I say all fallen principalities, archon and angels do NOT have free will - then God WOULD be unjust, and unfair (the two arent the same.) They are still incredibly strong, but they are subject to "fate (aka God's sovereign will,)" so they cannot even do everything they wanted to do. That obliterating the Church: it is impossible for any fallen creature. The fallen hosts of heaven understand this better than we do, and so they focus on individuals so as to chip at the foundation (the heel,) and destroy as much as possible. But, as powerful as they are, they still can't cause calamity on the magnitude of their will.

Remember the Accuser spirit and Job: the accusing spirit had to ASK God for permission, and for protections, wards and hedges to be removed from Job. There is no free will.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I know that's what he means, but I don't understand why he thinks God can't create humans to have free will, whom by their own will(which God has given them) can listen and obey God(as Jesus did) or not(as Adam did).

Because humans are fallen; would you let a baby roam free and do whatever it wants to do?

Or, would you like for a Judah type entity to do everything his heart desires?

Free will also implies the ability to do what you choose to do. This is not the case; there is no free will for fallen or created, imperfect beings. We all have hedges on us until we die, and are judged

Adam had "free will," as a son of God, and chose to curse the entire human race...

Christ has free will - and He used it to do 100% of His Father's will. He saved the entire human race. He is also a son of God, and besides Adam, the only human with that title.

This is an example of why created, fallen beings have no free will at all, and how even perfect beings with free will give it back to God 100%.

So, technically no one has free will at all. We barely have choice - depending on our corruption.

 

[Chriliman]

Within the story of God and creation, everything is determined at the point of creation. God is outside of time.

God becomes a part of time the moment he begins creating. He can't logically create anything without taking time to do it.

He created the end within the same instance as the beginning.

The end is a result of what he did in the beginning, within time.

Revelation 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

You cannot do anything differently than what God has determined to be. Not a thing.

You'll have to explain how having knowledge of someone's choices necissarily means you make that choice for them. Otherwise I don't see how your above point is a problem in regards to making our own choices of our own will, regardless if God knows or not.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

You'll have to explain how having knowledge of someone's choices necissarily means you make that choice for them. Otherwise I don't see how your above point is a problem in regards to making our own choices of our own will, regardless if God knows or not.

Because He is more involved than simply "knowing" what we will do. I can see I'm failing to convey my perspective and so I will not waste your time or mine on the issue any further. Thank you for the chat.

 

[Moral Orel]

You're correct to assume God is perfectly good, but then you go on to assume he implants bad desires in us and controls us to act on those desires, almost as if it's him doing it and not us. No, obviously something that's perfectly good would not do that. What he does do is give us the option to desire what is good(Godly desires) or desire what is bad(not Godly desires) and leaves it to us to act on those desires.

I reject the notion that perfect goodness implants bad desires in such a way that it's inevitable that we'll act on them. It's a contradiction to think in this way.

You're putting an awful lot of words in my mouth. I never said anything about controlling us in the slightest.

If we had zero desire to do bad things, we wouldn't do bad things. God designed us and gave us our desires. We would do absolutely nothing if God hadn't designed us with internal motivations to do things. If some of those things that we do are bad, then God gave us a desire to do bad things.

Now I use the word "inevitable" not to mean that we don't have a choice, but that God knows what we're going to choose based on how He designed us and the universe around us. I don't think having a desire to do bad things takes away our choices, but I definitely think it's a ridiculous test to demand perfection from beings that you didn't (though you could have) created perfect.

 

[Chriliman]

Because He is more involved than simply "knowing" what we will do.

No doubt about that.

I can see I'm failing to convey my perspective and so I will not waste your time or mine on the issue any further. Thank you for the chat.

I have no problem with concluding that God's will, will be done, regardless of my will or your will, in fact this is what I desire because I know He is good.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

So we'd have to potentially answer two questions. Is it logically possible to have an entity like God, who exists outside of time, create all of existence from the beginning to end with the power to create it all any way He desires, and do so while His creations maintain free will.

Logic... is illogical. But, let's assume we know what you mean (i.e. colloquial logic, or even formal logic): it is logically possible for God to exist out of time, and for Him to know every single decision possible for every instantaneous change in every minute detail doesn't negate our freedom of choice. That is our conscious, active ability. In terms of us having free will... that is certainly also possible for God to be omniscient while we have "free will." But, what Most High God would allow evil and darkness to carryout their hearts desire to the maximum potential? He knows, inherently, that allowing evil to have free will means "decent," fallen creatures will be completely razed. Why? For one thing...

Light, and Godly entities are gentlepersons. Evil entities are forceful in their wills. This is why Christ knocks at the door waiting to be let in, while demons and spirits INVADE.

In this way, free will for all would retard God's full characteristics, and He would be disqualified as the Most High God; he would just be a god.

In this example, and the aforementioned examples, the issue isn't about whether God can do it, but whether He will. Essentially, all of the above are logical because they exist in PARADOXES. While not literally logical, paradox is still in the domain of logic.

It becomes logic instead of paradox, I would assume, the more we learn.

I'd say that does not seem logically possible. So if that's the case, can God can do something that is logically impossible? Create a married bachelor, for example. If He can, then there is no problem here. But if He cannot, I don't see any other conclusion to draw but free will being an illusion.

He can create "paradoxes," but it is a "what's the point" kind of exercise. I won't try to give you an incredible answer, but just know most of our illogical examples of Godliness are actually extremely logical - like seeing a jigsaw puzzle from above as opposed to being on the same 2D plane as the puzzle.

Squares are topologically the same entities as circles. As someone on these forums said befoee, a married bachelor would be any male Christian.

These may be unsatisfactory (except topology,) but if we humans can come up with a neophyte logical loophole for paradoxes, there is no doubt that the gods, even the Most High can provide logic for what we perceive as paradoxes.

If God gave us all free will, as it were, He would spend all of his "time" (another illusion) on literally destroying the uni/multiverse/creation. That will be His focused personality: a God that destroyed the universe. Because, He is Holy, and as I said unless He wanted to compromise His character (and, therefore His crown,) then it makes no spiritually logical sense to give everyone free will.

I would imagine God and the Word of God, along with the Spirit of God, reasoned that this iteration of life would produce the MOST souls saved and perfected, while MARGINALIZING the amount of successfully evil entities to exist (even so much as preparing a proper judgment for these evil entities.)

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Logic... is illogical. But, let's assume we know what you mean (i.e. colloquial logic, or even formal logic): it is logically possible for God to exist out of time, and for Him to know every single decision possible for every instantaneous change in every minute detail doesn't negate our freedom of choice. That is our conscious, active ability. In terms of us having free will... that is certainly also possible for God to be omniscient while we have "free will." But, what Most High God would allow evil and darkness to carryout their hearts desire to the maximum potential? He knows, inherently, that allowing evil to have free will means "decent," fallen creatures will be completely razed. Why? For one thing...

Light, and Godly entities are gentlepersons. Evil entities are forceful in their wills. This is why Christ knocks at the door waiting to be let in, while demons and spirits INVADE.

In this way, free will for all would retard God's full characteristics, and He would be disqualified as the Most High God; he would just be a god.

In this example, and the aforementioned examples, the issue isn't about whether God can do it, but whether He will. Essentially, all of the above are logical because they exist in PARADOXES. While not literally logical, paradox is still in the domain of logic.

It becomes logic instead of paradox, I would assume, the more we learn.



He can create "paradoxes," but it is a "what's the point" kind of exercise. I won't try to give you an incredible answer, but just know most of our illogical examples of Godliness are actually extremely logical - like seeing a jigsaw puzzle from above as opposed to being on the same 2D plane as the puzzle.

Squares are topologically the same entities as circles. As someone on these forums said befoee, a married bachelor would be any male Christian.

These may be unsatisfactory (except topology,) but if we humans can come up with a neophyte logical loophole for paradoxes, there is no doubt that the gods, even the Most High can provide logic for what we perceive as paradoxes.

If God gave us all free will, as it were, He would spend all of his "time" (another illusion) on literally destroying the uni/multiverse/creation. That will be His focused personality: a God that destroyed the universe. Because, He is Holy, and as I said unless He wanted to compromise His character (and, therefore His crown,) then it makes no spiritually logical sense to give everyone free will.

I would imagine God and the Word of God, along with the Spirit of God, reasoned that this iteration of life would produce the MOST souls saved and perfected, while MARGINALIZING the amount of successfully evil entities to exist (even so much as preparing a proper judgment for these evil entities.)

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

I absolutely concede that God can simply be "omniscient" and that alone is consistent with humans having "free will." But He doesn't just know. I've already tried to clarify the other aspects of God's role in tandem with omniscience that lead me to my conclusion but if I've failed after all of those posts I don't see the point in continuing.

I honestly thought I'd get that married bachelor reply. I mean, it's clever. Clearly the reply indicates "married in one way while a bachelor in another way" which simply reframes it as not a paradox, and thus doesn't address the actual question. (Also, I apologize if I use those words incorrectly. )