Free Will and Evil

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,641
✟476,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
The existence of free will does not necessitate the existence of evil.

It is possible for a world to exist that has free will but won't ever have evil.

God can do anything that is possible.

God can create a world with free will beings that won't ever have evil.
 
Last edited:

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,184
1,809
✟825,826.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The existence of free will does not necessitate the existence of evil.

It is possible for a world to exist that has free will but won't ever have evil.

God can do anything that is possible.

God can create a world with free will beings that won't ever have evil.
I agree God could eliminate the possibility of doing evil, but I do not know if God could eliminate any thought of evil and still allow us to be free will human agents on earth.
Sin has purpose in that it helps willing but nonbelieving individuals in their fulfilling of their earthly objective.
Think about this: Is sin itself the problem or is unforgiven sins a huge problem for the individual?
This messed up world is not our "home" but it is the best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,641
✟476,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
I agree God could eliminate the possibility of doing evil, but I do not know if God could eliminate any thought of evil and still allow us to be free will human agents on earth.
Having the thought of evil does not mean evil will result. So there is no need to remove all thought of evil to remove the possibility of evil existing.
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,834
3,410
✟244,937.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The existence of free will does not necessitate the existence of evil.

It is possible for a world to exist that has free will but won't ever have evil.

God can do anything that is possible.

God can create a world with free will beings that won't ever have evil.

Standard reply:

If God creates free beings, then they have the choice to do good or evil. It is possible that each would always choose good, but God cannot guarantee that this will happen. The choice is the free agent's, not God's. God therefore cannot create a world in which there is necessarily no evil, for free will brings with it the possibility of evil. You can't have free will without the possibility of evil, and a world with the possibility of evil is not one that guarantees no evil.
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,641
✟476,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Standard reply:

If God creates free beings, then they have the choice to do good or evil. It is possible that each would always choose good, but God cannot guarantee that this will happen. The choice is the free agent's, not God's. God therefore cannot create a world in which there is necessarily no evil, for free will brings with it the possibility of evil. You can't have free will without the possibility of evil, and a world with the possibility of evil is not one that guarantees no evil.
Will evil ever be completely eradicated forever? If so, will it be accomplished by eliminating all free will beings?
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,834
3,410
✟244,937.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Will evil ever be completely eradicated forever? If so, will it be accomplished by eliminating all free will beings?

Libertarian Free will is a kind of indetermination of the will based on equally desirable objects of choice. That is, it requires that there exist at least two objects which are similarly desirable so that we can deliberate and proceed to choose between them. In cases where one object is extremely desirable and the other extremely undesirable there is no indetermination of the will and thus no libertarian free will.

In Heaven we will see God face to face, and his goodness and glory will be manifest. God is that which is supremely good and desirable, and in Heaven we will see clearly that this is so. Thus we will not choose anything over God, which means that we will not sin. Thus in the choices which regard God and God's will there will be no indetermination of the will and thus no libertarian free will. Note that the faculty has not changed, but only the clarity with which we see the objects, and especially God. Depending on your definition of free will, we will or will not have it in heaven, but since we will see God face to face we will never choose anything over him.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: PseudoChrome
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,834
3,410
✟244,937.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Standard response: Earth quakes, tsunamis, malaria, polio, etc.

I believe you are committing the fallacy of ignoratio elenchi. To illustrate:

Nicholas: God could create a world with free will and no evil.
Zippy: A world with free will always includes the possibility of evil, therefore God could not.
dcarrera: There are natural evils.
Zippy: I do not see why the existence of natural evils contradicts my statement. It is possible to have a world with natural evils and still admit that free will necessitates the possibility of evil.​

How is your response supposed to intersect what I said in my post?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,641
✟476,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Libertarian Free will is a kind of indetermination of the will based on equally desirable objects of choice. That is, it requires that there exist at least two objects which are similarly desirable so that we can deliberate and proceed to choose between them. In cases where one object is extremely desirable and the other extremely undesirable there is no indetermination of the will and thus no libertarian free will.

In Heaven we will see God face to face, and his goodness and glory will be manifest. God is that which is supremely good and desirable, and in Heaven we will see clearly that this is so. Thus we will not choose anything over God, which means that we will not sin. Thus in the choices which regard God and God's will there will be no indetermination of the will and thus no libertarian free will. Note that the faculty has not changed, but only the clarity with which we see the objects, and especially God. Depending on your definition of free will, we will or will not have it in heaven, but since we will see God face to face we will never choose anything over him.
Okay, so now we've got:
Free Will (FW)
Libertarian Free Will (LFW)
Non-Libertarian Free Will (NLFW)

Doesn't matter what my definition of FW is, just yours. I want to know how you used it in your "standard reply" now that it seems there is a distinction. Is NLFW still FW?

ETA I do think NLFW is FW. But I still need to know if we're using FW the same way based on your "standard reply".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,834
3,410
✟244,937.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Doesn't matter what my definition of FW is, just yours. I want to know how you used it in your "standard reply" now that it seems there is a distinction. Is NLFW still FW?

ETA I do think NLFW is FW. But I still need to know if we're using FW the same way based on your "standard reply".

I am using it in basically the same way--there is no equivocation. Slight accommodation may be necessary since I defined LFW according to circumstances and FW as an inherent faculty. You can assume that my definition of LFW applies to my original reply.

That said, the "Standard reply" is broader and more general than any specific understanding of free will, and would be espoused by theists of various persuasions with respect to free will.
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,641
✟476,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
I am using it in basically the same way--there is no equivocation. Slight accommodation may be necessary since I defined LFW according to circumstances and FW as an inherent faculty. You can assume that my definition of LFW applies to my original reply.
Okay, so only LFW applies to the standard reply, and not NLFW.

And it still isn't quite clear, is NLFW still FW or not? And if it is FW, then is LFW better than NLFW somehow?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ExodusMe

Rough around the edges
Jan 30, 2017
533
162
Washington State
✟34,734.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The existence of free will does not necessitate the existence of evil.

It is possible for a world to exist that has free will but won't ever have evil.

God can do anything that is possible.

God can create a world with free will beings that won't ever have evil.
Show me how God can create a world with free beings who do not ever choose evil please?

Oh wait you can't....

Which is why this objection is absurd. You assumed "God can do anything that is possible", but you didn't show that it is possible for him to create such a world and you can't. It may be not be possible for God to create a world where free human beings do not choose evil and that is sufficient enough to answer your objection.

Maybe God could create a world for beings other than humans who do not choose evil, but that would not be human beings.
 
Upvote 0

ToddNotTodd

Iconoclast
Feb 17, 2004
7,724
3,799
✟255,331.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Libertarian Free will is a kind of indetermination of the will based on equally desirable objects of choice. That is, it requires that there exist at least two objects which are similarly desirable so that we can deliberate and proceed to choose between them. In cases where one object is extremely desirable and the other extremely undesirable there is no indetermination of the will and thus no libertarian free will.

Strictly speaking, libertarian free will is just the position in opposition to determinism, i.e. the inability to make a choice devoid of causes external to the will. Choices don't have to be equally desirable. And even if a choice is undesirable, it doesn't violate libertarian free will if the choice is available.

The problem with libertarian determinism is that neither main branch - event caused or agent caused - is intelligible if you admit that the principle of sufficient reason holds true.

In Heaven we will see God face to face, and his goodness and glory will be manifest. God is that which is supremely good and desirable, and in Heaven we will see clearly that this is so. Thus we will not choose anything over God, which means that we will not sin. Thus in the choices which regard God and God's will there will be no indetermination of the will and thus no libertarian free will. Note that the faculty has not changed, but only the clarity with which we see the objects, and especially God. Depending on your definition of free will, we will or will not have it in heaven, but since we will see God face to face we will never choose anything over him.

The problem of suffering and free will hinges on the idea that a good god would have necessarily created us with this desire not to "sin" from the outset, so that human caused suffering would never exist.

Whether the result of that is free will in any sense of the term is somewhat immaterial, since it can be argued that in many cases, I myself don't have free will, even if you believe that free will exists.

For example, if I have the choice to do something terrible, say molest a child, I will, ceteris parabis, never ever do such a thing because the idea is anathema to me. I don't consider myself a "robot", as Christians are want to suggest someone absent free will would be. I don't find myself "lessened" in any way because my conscious renders me unable to pick certain choices. It's up to the theist to show why a person is "more of a person" than me because they may desire to do terrible things...
 
Upvote 0

ToddNotTodd

Iconoclast
Feb 17, 2004
7,724
3,799
✟255,331.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Show me how God can create a world with free beings who do not ever choose evil please?

Oh wait you can't....

Actually, you demonstrably can show this. For any given terrible thing ("evil" action), there is someone who lived and died never having done this. This can be shown to be true by showing everyone who was in a position to do this terrible thing, but didn't. The reason these people didn't do this action can vary, but it's reasonable to assume that at least some of them didn't because their conscious didn't allow them to. In fact, you can be sure that is true by interviewing people still alive today and asking them if they'd ever do terrible thing X.

Now, if someone had a conscious that was the culmination of all the people who wouldn't commit individual terrible acts, you would end up with a person with a conscious who would do no terrible acts.

Now, you may think to yourself that such a person really wouldn't have free will. But does your definition of free will really depend on the desire to do terrible things? I don't have the desire to do terrible things. Does that mean I don't have free will?

Because if it does, I don't care that I don't have free will...
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,641
✟476,748.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Show me how God can create a world with free beings who do not ever choose evil please?

Oh wait you can't....

Which is why this objection is absurd. You assumed "God can do anything that is possible", but you didn't show that it is possible for him to create such a world and you can't. It may be not be possible for God to create a world where free human beings do not choose evil and that is sufficient enough to answer your objection.

Maybe God could create a world for beings other than humans who do not choose evil, but that would not be human beings.
It's not sufficient at all. If another type of being can be completely free to choose, but never will, then the difference is whatever else you consider to be "human" characteristics and it has nothing to do with free will.

And I can show you that such a world is possible, a world in which there is free will and no evil.

Same question I posed to Zippy: Will there ever come a time when evil is completely eradicated? If so, is it accomplished by eliminating all free will beings?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ygrene Imref

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2017
2,636
1,085
New York, NY
✟70,839.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
The existence of free will does not necessitate the existence of evil.

It is possible for a world to exist that has free will but won't ever have evil.

God can do anything that is possible.

God can create a world with free will beings that won't ever have evil.

I'm not so sure (at all) that any entity has total free will.

I think entities have free choice, but not free will.

Ex: Someone puts a gun to your head and says, "You have to choose between killing your mother or child..." many people forget that there is a third choice: get shot.

But, we don't get the power to do anything we will. No created imperfect entity has free will.
 
Upvote 0