Free will and determinism

[Jonaitis]

"Causality" and "event" seem a little vague.

Could you explain?

Could you clear up which causes aren't events? Why do they only unfold now....never in the past....never in the future....only now.

An "event" is a human interpretation of a cause. What may be an "event" to one person may not be for another person. It is a construct of the mind in making sense of something that occurs.

The concept of time, also, doesn't exist outside of the mind. The past, you could say, no longer exists; and the future has not happened. So there is only the present.

As long as you keep defining things you don't understand as causes....and things you don't know will occur as events....sure.

Definitions are subjective, so whether you think I don't understand doesn't hold any meaning.

But the description is entirely useless.

Again, that is only a subjective opinion.

I see no reason for it except to simplify things for emotional satisfaction. You don't know what you don't know.

You simplify what makes sense to you for emotional satisfaction, so does it really hold any weight?

Everything changes.

Yes, that's the principle of impermanent in this world, but every cause is from another cause, and there is no escaping it. Your present circumstances followed previous conditions; therefore you are a product of past occurrences that influenced this moment. You think you have free will, but it is an illusion of being ignorant of the conditions that were present before you made any choice.

 

[Jonaitis]

I am reminded of persons who are told... and even believe, that they turned out the way they did, or will turn out the way they do, because it is determined, and they can't help it.
In fact, one man who "loves his liquor", told me this,

However, many have proved that notion false.
One character in the Bible, is Hezekiah... who did not turn out like his father, and grandfather, and though some persons' circumstances in life, was such, to drive them in a particular direction, they took another... simply by the choices they decided to make, against the choices that were more likely.

Really, the philosophical thinking presented in the OP, is not as insightful as it may appear.
In fact, the way our mind works, sometimes what is so great to us, is often seen that way, because of the choices we make, or want to make - our free-willed choices.

Free will does exist.
It's not often wanted though.
It reminds me of consequences. Some regret there being any.... at least where their choices are concerned.

Do you believe Jesus' birth, ministry, death and resurrection, as well as his second coming were determined before they happened according to the Old Testament, and that he came to fulfill what was written about him? Then history itself is unfolding in a way that was a predetermined plan in mind. You are a product of divine will. Free will is an illusion.

 

[CoreyD]

That is an unproven, not to mention poorly stated, assumption. If I didn't know better, the way it was stated, I would think you agreed with me.

Of course it's a choice. Who is saying differently?

She did, and God did, not to mention all the various influences upon her choices.

Of course. Nobody is saying differently here.

Of course. I agree with that, though not in every particular, but, yeah, I agree with the force of your argument there, as stated. I'm beginning to think, however, that you assume it implies things that I don't.

No.

You have just demonstrated several causes. How, then, can you say the decision is not determined by a cause? It is determined by many causes, all of which were determined by omniscient God, who knew before creating, exactly what would come of his creating, yet created anyway, thus, demonstratively, INTENDING every one of those influences, good or evil, that fed into the choice.

The choice need not be ONLY by the chooser, to be real choice. Further, as you have so ably demonstrated here, the choice need not even be all options equally "possible", but only to appear to be, (which is one of my favorite subjects with which to jar people's self-important thinking.)

That "determinism" is unpalatable to many believers, no more proves it wrong than Scripture does; Scripture, instead posits and proves that God is the source of all fact. God has ordained all things, whatsoever comes to pass.

But for whatever it is worth, I don't like the word "determinism" as it is generally considered by probably most Christians to imply that God equally determined the reprobation of most with the same force of intent as he determined the salvation of some. That would be a mischaracterization of what I believe.

An aside: If God is indeed Omnipotent omniscient self-existent creator of all else, then even very reality is his 'invention' and he is not a merely powerful resident within a larger reality. So it follows that NOTHING can happen unless he has established its existence/reality. That, then, must include decisions of creatures.

I understand what you are saying, though this is something I do not agree with.
Why did God regret making Saul king? 1 Samuel 15:10, 11

 

[Tinker Grey]

I understand what you are saying, though this is something I do not agree with.
Why did God regret making Saul king? 1 Samuel 15:10, 11

Because he's not omniscient. What do I win?

 

[Fervent]

We are using our experiences to interpret data, sure....but that data is about something we haven't directly experienced.

I thought this was what you were asking for an example of...a means of understanding something we don't directly experience.

No, I was asking for some learning without anyone experiencing it or understanding where we do not rely on prior experiences to render them sensible.

That's a possibility. Can you explain specifically what you didn't understand? Maybe I can restate it.

You've provided a description, but it seems to be lacking connective tissue IMO...the "how" of it.

Uh huh...but that is still a rather impressive feat.




What's "physical determinism"? a physical model of behavior that insists we cannot make choices?

Physical determinism is a model of the universe in which physical effects proceed from sufficient physical causes...in the free will discussion it would imply that the physical makeup of our brains lead any thoughts we have.

What does God say to you?

His most recent message was "Now pray for the wisdom and discipline to maintain what you've manifested." But typical conversations involve being given Biblical addresses in some form or fashion.

I am sincerely asking what god says to you audibly. You describe engaging in conversation with God. That's a valid question. Don't ignore it.

God's speech to me tends to be visual rather than auditory, I've only heard an audible word once. Your question is valid, but I also must exercise discretion in what I do and don't answer especially when speaking with unbelievers.

Let's skip this for now.




What does he look like?

Same as the question about conversation. Describe his presence. Don't get shy now. These are your truths.

My truth is a definition...these circumstances feed into my conviction. Sitting in His presence is a calmness and a warmth that feels like I'm melting into pure peace. Any concerns I have or momentary worries disappear and what is left is a sense that everything is going to be ok. Sometimes its accompanied with a mist that no one else sees, but usually my eyes are closed and I'm filled with an otherworldly sense of peace.

Everyone sees things others don't. That's the nature of perception.

Well, yeah. Fair point.

So you aren't having conversations with God?

I am, but He speaks to me through written words not audible ones. When I say I see things others don't it's disembodied words I'm talking about generally.

Surely you understand why this makes me think perhaps you aren't exactly shooting straight with me.

Because of our difference in beliief I need to be a bit cagey. Try not to take it personally.

Are you asking about other assumptions? Or would my words here count as something "projected onto reality"?

The first...for example, do you assume "objective reality" is self-sufficient? That there is some fundamental particle or law that gives rise to everything we experience?

I'm not a biology book. If you're interested in learning how a configuration of atoms can do things once configured that the atoms couldn't do by themselves....I can recommend some basic chemistry books to start.

The question isn't about chemistry or biology, its a question about what "emergence" is supposed to add to our understanding other than sounding scientific?

It may look like magic but you can probably understand the processes if you try.

That's quite the boast.

No need to wonder....just ask. I told you about the problem of criterion. You start with an assumption at some point.

Anything else?

Not really, we're in agreement on that point...it just seems to me that certain starting assumptions often remain hidden when they are part of a dominant cultural belief. And such assumptions lead to inconsistent application or undermine themselves when taken to their logcal end.

I'm assuming my mind is also real and in some degree experiencing reality.



I suppose that's ultimately why he chooses morality then huh? Might makes right. He who need not fear punishment need not consider the morality of anyone else.



We've got multiple examples of this anomaly. It appears to be consistently true....unlike claims of conversing with god.



No. It's a thought experiment. I thought that was clear. Regular people.



Just two?




There's a pizza shop in town I like...that's 100% true btw. I don't know what necessity or sufficiency have to do with it. Seems unnecessary and rather insufficient....yet no less than 100% true.

It seems we're heading down a path where things could easily turn towards the uncivil, and I'd rather not follow down that path.

Again, I'm not a biology book.




If we're talking about a book created through inspiration, then we aren't talking about people with direct experience are we?




Right.




That's your opinion.




And we do. It's clear that you've judged him good. I've judged him bad.

Let's not pretend we aren't making judgements.

We certainly are, but my judgment isn't of God. I've accepted He is good, because I've recognized that I am not. I am often not fit to make such judgments about other human beings because of what I am missing, how can I then aim to judge God?

Well I think we've established it isn't direct experience.

It's a culmination of experiences.

What do you assume I've been refusing to question about objective reality?

I've considered multiple other possibilities, I promise. They simply aren't in of themselves convincing and require more assumptions.



I don't want you to be nihilistic. Keep your faith.



I don't think magic is involved anymore than it's involved in photosynthesis or nuclear fusion.

You wouldn't call it magic, but when people who are similarly inclined invoke "emergence" to explain the rise of agency from deterministic physical phenomenon as if it were an explanation it sure sounds the same as calling it magic to me.

Well I didn't claim to have solved the problem of "hard consciousness". I tend not to throw out guesses without a significant degree of consideration but here we go anyway....

Consciousness appears to be a synthesis of both sensory experience, our brain's ability to form memories, language, emotions, and capacity for abstraction, and basic pattern recognition. This allows us to both consider we experience directly and whatever might be within our grasp to consider.

That's just a first pass guess though.

I don't see much explanation in there...because the difficulty of consciousness is not describing it, but explaining how we go from deterministic processes that follow predictable paths to having the capacity to "point" ourselves in the directions we want to go. The ablity to act with intention and drive this thing we call our body. The ghost in the machine, as it were. If it truly is nothing but physical processes, then there is no true agency...just like water doesn't "choose" where to flow when it is dropped on a rock even though we can't always predict the path it flows. In other words, if consciousness is nothing more than a byproduct of physical processes in the brain then free will has to be an illusion. So bucking that claim requires either being inconsistent or reshaping the basic model of objective reality we're working with.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I thought I was mistaken. It's good to know that I am not alone in seeing this.

It's clear from the use of language that determinism is a little more difficult to believe than determinists claim.

 

[Fervent]

Yeah, you keep saying that you believe that you have it. That's all you've got though. 'Hey, I make decisions, so I must have it'. That's it. That is literally your argument. But you have absolutely no idea how it could work without determinism. None at all. And you have said that you have no idea at all. This is exactly what you said:

I'm starting to think you have issues with reading comprehension. You do know there's a difference between knowing how something works, and recognizing that it operates...right? What, why, and how are all different questions.

'I see no reason to suspect that everything that exists is possible to explain or comprehensible to human reasoning.'

You are admitting that you can't explain it. That it's not possible to explain. So don't tell me that you didn't say that you have no idea. You just admitted that your position is incomprehensible to you.

Being able to explain somethings operation isn't required for recognizing its operation. I know exactly why I reject your claim that it is an illusion, because it's not on me to give a reason to "believe" in somethng that I regularly employ. It's on you to give reason for suspicion. Whch you haven't, other than making an assertion about "determinism" that isn't all that well defined.

 

[CoreyD]

Do you believe Jesus' birth, ministry, death and resurrection, as well as his second coming were determined before they happened according to the Old Testament, and that he came to fulfill what was written about him? Then history itself is unfolding in a way that was a predetermined plan in mind. You are a product of divine will. Free will is an illusion.

The Bible tells us that God has a purpose, or will, and that will and purpose will not, and cannot fail. Why? God makes sure it does not, and did this from the beginning of man's fall. Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians 1:17-20

So, yes, all the prophesies will come true, without fail. Joshua 21:45
However, the Bible also shows that God does not direct, intervene, nor determine the things that do not relate to his will and purpose.

For example,
the Tower of Babel...

Genesis 11:5-9​

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.​

Sodom and Gomorrah...

Genesis 18:20, 21​

20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”​

God's test of Abraham...
Genesis 22:10-12
10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

These, as well as other scriptures show that God has not predetermined events, nor does he foreknow every event, though he could get to know, if he chooses to.
I have heard persons say that everything is a predetermined plan by God, and persons do believe that everyone's life is already mapped out - predetermined, but I have never been shown this in the scriptures.

So, I do not believe it.

 

[Jonaitis]

The Bible tells us that God has a purpose, or will, and that will and purpose will not, and cannot fail. Why? God makes sure it does not, and did this from the beginning of man's fall. Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians 1:17-20

So, yes, all the prophesies will come true, without fail. Joshua 21:45
However, the Bible also shows that God does not direct, intervene, nor determine the things that do not relate to his will and purpose.

For example,
the Tower of Babel...

Genesis 11:5-9​

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.​

Sodom and Gomorrah...

Genesis 18:20, 21​

20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”​

God's test of Abraham...
Genesis 22:10-12
10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

These, as well as other scriptures show that God has not predetermined events, nor does he foreknow every event, though he could get to know, if he chooses to.
I have heard persons say that everything is a predetermined plan by God, and persons do believe that everyone's life is already mapped out - predetermined, but I have never been shown this in the scriptures.

So, I do not believe it.

However, I still think the weight of biblical evidence points to a predetermined plan in the larger sense—especially concerning God's ultimate purpose, as revealed through Jesus Christ.

You mentioned events like the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, and Abraham's test. To me, these don’t negate the idea of divine determination but instead show how God's overarching plan works out even as He interacts dynamically with humanity. For example, the Tower of Babel incident (Genesis 11) demonstrates God's sovereignty in directing human history. While humans made their choices, God ensured the result aligned with His plan to disperse people across the earth.

Similarly, with Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18), God's statement, "If not, I will know," doesn’t imply a lack of foreknowledge but shows His justice and patience in giving humanity the opportunity to respond before He acts. Even the test of Abraham (Genesis 22) wasn’t about God learning something new but about revealing Abraham’s faith and confirming God’s covenant promise.

You referenced that God doesn’t predetermine everything. When it comes to God’s redemptive plan, the Bible is clear: nothing is left to chance. Jesus' birth, ministry, death, and resurrection were all foretold (Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Daniel 9:24-27) and fulfilled exactly as prophesied. That’s not random or reactive—that’s intentional.

Ephesians 1:11 says God works "all things according to the counsel of His will." This includes humanity’s salvation, as seen in passages like Acts 2:23, where Peter says Jesus was "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God." Even human free will operates within the boundaries of God’s ultimate purpose. Proverbs 16:9 captures this tension: "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."

So while it might seem like free will and divine determination are at odds, they’re not. God’s will encompasses human actions without overriding them, ensuring His purposes are always fulfilled (Isaiah 46:10). That’s why I see history, including our lives, as part of a predetermined plan unfolding exactly as intended.

 

[Bradskii]

Being able to explain somethings operation isn't required for recognizing its operation.

You seem to think that 'I just know I'm right, therefore you must be wrong' is good enough. It isn't. But at least now that you've admitted that you don't know how free will could work outside of determinism I won't have to waste my time asking you again.

 

[Jonaitis]

@CoreyD

Now, if we dive deeper, there’s a lot in Scripture that suggests God’s control isn’t just over the big, sweeping events like Jesus’ life or salvation history—it extends to every detail. Proverbs 16:33 says, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Think about that: even something as random as casting lots (basically rolling dice) falls under God’s control. That doesn’t leave much room for chance, does it?

Another clear example is in Psalm 139:16, where David says, “Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” This shows that God not only knows but determines the course of each person’s life before they’re even born. Every moment is part of a plan already written.

Even human decisions, which we often think of as completely free, are under God’s direction. Proverbs 21:1 says, “The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He will.” If God controls the decisions of kings, how much more does He guide the rest of us?

Look at Joseph’s story in Genesis 50:20. After being sold into slavery by his brothers, Joseph says, “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.” Notice the wording—it’s not just that God used their actions for good; He meant it that way all along. Their actions were part of God’s detailed plan to save many lives.

The New Testament carries this idea further. Romans 9 is a whole chapter on God’s sovereignty, and Paul doesn’t shy away from hard determinism. Verse 18 says, “So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.” Think of Pharaoh in Exodus—his resistance to letting Israel go wasn’t just his own stubbornness. Exodus 9:12 says, “The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” God directed even Pharaoh’s decisions to fulfill His purpose.

Even Judas’s betrayal of Jesus fits this pattern. Jesus knew Judas would betray Him, fulfilling the prophecy in Psalm 41:9. But Luke 22:22 makes it clear that Judas’s actions were both determined and accountable: “The Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”

So, when you put it all together, it’s hard to argue that anything happens outside of God’s will. He’s not just reacting to human choices; He’s actively directing every detail. That doesn’t mean we always understand how it works, but the Bible consistently shows God as the author of history, down to the smallest events.

 

[CoreyD]

Because he's not omniscient. What do I win?

Five points for trying, and being sincere about it.

The correct answer depends on how omniscience is defined.
One dictionary defines omniscient this way:

1. Having total knowledge; knowing everything.
   "an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator."
2. Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise.
   "the omniscient God"
3. Having total knowledge.
4. Infinitely wise.

Most prefer the definition, "knowing everything", however, the Bible, in many places, including the one I referenced, show that God does not know everything, but that does not mean God cannot know everything, if he so chooses.
He chooses to exercise his that ability according to his will.

God is thus omniscient in the sense of being "infinitely knowing or wise" - that is, he is not limited in his wisdom, understanding and knowledge. God is infinitely wise.

If you agree, you win a ten.

 

[Bradskii]

I have plenty of options, don't I, and the freedom to make one choice or other - free will.

I think we need to slow down. I'm not inclined to answer umpteen questions in one post. One answer might depend on you agreeing to another and if you don't then any discussion simply heads off into the weeds. So...

Yes, unless you are coerced you can make a decision. But simply making a decision is not the definition of free will. So let's bear that in mind.

The reason has not determined the choice I made. The reason only gave me options - choices. None of which I have to make.

Now that sounds nonsensical. If you make a tuna sandwich for breakfast then I can ask you a simple question: 'Why did you do that?' And then you'll give me the reasons why you did it. To say that the reasons didn't determine what you did is just mangling the English language past the point where reasonable discussion is not possible. So if you do something then the reasons why you did it will be why you did it (and I can't believe that I had to explain that).

However, because I want to... it is what I prefer, over the choice to not bother, because I feel lazy.

Yes, you always do what you prefer. Always. Even if it's something that you don't want to do. There is a difference. You want to go to the pub and you don't want to go to the gym because it's hard work. But you prefer going to the gym because your long term aim overcomes your short term wants. I hope that's clear.

 

[CoreyD]

@CoreyD

Now, if we dive deeper, there’s a lot in Scripture that suggests God’s control isn’t just over the big, sweeping events like Jesus’ life or salvation history—it extends to every detail. Proverbs 16:33 says, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Think about that: even something as random as casting lots (basically rolling dice) falls under God’s control. That doesn’t leave much room for chance, does it?

Another clear example is in Psalm 139:16, where David says, “Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” This shows that God not only knows but determines the course of each person’s life before they’re even born. Every moment is part of a plan already written.

Even human decisions, which we often think of as completely free, are under God’s direction. Proverbs 21:1 says, “The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He will.” If God controls the decisions of kings, how much more does He guide the rest of us?

Look at Joseph’s story in Genesis 50:20. After being sold into slavery by his brothers, Joseph says, “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.” Notice the wording—it’s not just that God used their actions for good; He meant it that way all along. Their actions were part of God’s detailed plan to save many lives.

The New Testament carries this idea further. Romans 9 is a whole chapter on God’s sovereignty, and Paul doesn’t shy away from hard determinism. Verse 18 says, “So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.” Think of Pharaoh in Exodus—his resistance to letting Israel go wasn’t just his own stubbornness. Exodus 9:12 says, “The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” God directed even Pharaoh’s decisions to fulfill His purpose.

Even Judas’s betrayal of Jesus fits this pattern. Jesus knew Judas would betray Him, fulfilling the prophecy in Psalm 41:9. But Luke 22:22 makes it clear that Judas’s actions were both determined and accountable: “The Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”

So, when you put it all together, it’s hard to argue that anything happens outside of God’s will. He’s not just reacting to human choices; He’s actively directing every detail. That doesn’t mean we always understand how it works, but the Bible consistently shows God as the author of history, down to the smallest events.

Thanks for the use of scripture.

Those scriptures are not to be taken as contrary to the ones I quoted.
Taking all of them in harmony, and considering that there is context involved, we see that God sees what he wants to see.

What about Habakkuk 1:13 - Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil, and You cannot tolerate wrongdoing.?
You see, we have to consider that there is context to what is written in scripture.

 

[Jonaitis]

Thanks for the use of scripture.

Those scriptures are not to be taken as contrary to the ones I quoted.
Taking all of them in harmony, and considering that there is context involved, we see that God sees what he wants to see.

What about Habakkuk 1:13 - Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil, and You cannot tolerate wrongdoing.?
You see, we have to consider that there is context to what is written in scripture.

I get that you're emphasizing context, and I agree we need to be careful with how we interpret Scripture. But when we look at the full breadth of the Bible, I still think it's crystal clear that God is absolutely sovereign over everything, including evil, and that nothing happens outside of His divine will.

Habakkuk 1:13 does point out God’s purity and inability to tolerate evil, but let’s not overlook the fact that God allows evil to occur for His greater purposes. We can’t just cherry-pick verses that seem to suggest God is passive in the face of evil; we have to take the whole narrative into account. God is not in some reactive mode, responding to evil as if it catches Him by surprise. He uses evil to accomplish His will—whether it’s the betrayal of Jesus, the wickedness of Pharaoh, or the sinful choices of people throughout history.

You mentioned context, but the context of passages like Romans 9 and Proverbs 16:33 clearly show that God is in full control of all things, including human decisions. The “evil” that happens in the world doesn’t surprise God or escape His control. It’s actually part of His plan. Take Romans 9:18: “He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.” God doesn’t just “allow” things to happen. He actively hardens hearts (like Pharaoh’s) and guides human decisions to serve His purpose. And let’s be honest—this isn’t an isolated case. The Bible is full of examples where God directly causes or uses evil actions to bring about His will, whether it’s through the crucifixion of Jesus (Acts 2:23) or even the Assyrian invasion (Isaiah 10:5-7).

And yes, God is pure, holy, and cannot tolerate sin, but that doesn’t mean He’s unable to work through it. Isaiah 45:7 is a key verse here: “I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.” God doesn't just allow evil to happen; He creates disaster for His purposes. This doesn’t make Him evil—on the contrary, it shows His absolute control over all things.

Ultimately, God’s plan is not some passive response to human free will. It’s a determined, meticulously orchestrated purpose that includes everything—good, bad, and everything in between. And while we might struggle to reconcile God's holiness with His use of evil, the truth is that He is sovereign over all of it. He’s not just letting things happen and reacting; He’s determining everything in accordance with His will, to bring about His perfect plan.

So, rather than viewing God's sovereignty as something that coexists with random human choices, we need to see it for what it is: His will, unfolding perfectly and irresistibly. There’s no wiggle room—God is in control of every detail. What do you make of verses like Isaiah 45:7 and Romans 9:18 in this context?

 

[CoreyD]

I think we need to slow down. I'm not inclined to answer umpteen questions in one post. One answer might depend on you agreeing to another and if you don't then any discussion simply heads off into the weeds. So...

Yes, unless you are coerced you can make a decision. But simply making a decision is not the definition of free will. So let's bear that in mind.

Yes, let's slow down.
How are you defining free will?
Free will is the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action.

Now that sounds nonsensical. If you make a tuna sandwich for breakfast then I can ask you a simple question: 'Why did you do that?' And then you'll give me the reasons why you did it. To say that the reasons didn't determine what you did is just mangling the English language past the point where reasonable discussion is not possible. So if you do something then the reasons why you did it will be why you did it (and I can't believe that I had to explain that).

Why do you think you would have to explain that, when I already said it?
I could repeat it.

Reason and choice are not exclusive, by any possible means.​

One can have a motive, and yet have a reason to go against that motive.​

​

If you are arguing that determinism is reason... Is that what you are saying? Then there is obviously freewill, because freewill involves reason, and thus, in that case, you cannot exclude freewill with determinism.​

​

Deuteronomy 30:19, 20 reads.​

19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live,​

20 and that you may love the LORD your God, obey Him, and hold fast to Him. For He is your life, and He will prolong your life in the land that the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”​

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There is reason in choices.​

I plant a tree for a reason. No one makes a decision for no reason.​

That would be next to not thinking, but just acting, and that is not what anybody does.​

Yet, they are not acting based on what has been determined.​

Yes, you always do what you prefer. Always. Even if it's something that you don't want to do. There is a difference. You want to go to the pub and you don't want to go to the gym because it's hard work. But you prefer going to the gym because your long term aim overcomes your short term wants. I hope that's clear.

Yes, it's clear that you believe soldiers prefer to get shot at.

 

[Fervent]

You seem to think that 'I just know I'm right, therefore you must be wrong' is good enough. It isn't.

If you want to go on denying something you've admitted you can't live as if it isn't true, that's your business.

But at least now that you've admitted that you don't know how free will could work outside of determinism I won't have to waste my time asking you again.

Your framing the issue is rather nonsensical, especially because you haven't provided a clear definition of "determinism" to evaluate it. If your claim that the two are incompatible is true, it is the construct of determinism that has a lower priority and requires modification not the immediately experience of free will.

What you have displayed is that you have a poor grasp on arranging epistemic priorities.

 

[Fervent]

Five points for trying, and being sincere about it.

The correct answer depends on how omniscience is defined.
One dictionary defines omniscient this way:

1. Having total knowledge; knowing everything.
   "an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator."
2. Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise.
   "the omniscient God"
3. Having total knowledge.
4. Infinitely wise.

Most prefer the definition, "knowing everything", however, the Bible, in many places, including the one I referenced, show that God does not know everything, but that does not mean God cannot know everything, if he so chooses.
He chooses to exercise his that ability according to his will.

God is thus omniscient in the sense of being "infinitely knowing or wise" - that is, he is not limited in his wisdom, understanding and knowledge. God is infinitely wise.

If you agree, you win a ten.

An alternative definition to omniscience I find useful is origin of knowledge. God knows everythng that can be known because God creates knowledge, rather than passively learning as we do.

 

[Jonaitis]

Who can provide an accurate definition of "Free Will" and "Determinism"? In what sense are we talking about?

 

[Bradskii]

Yes, let's slow down.
How are you defining free will?
Free will is the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action.

...the choice not having been determined by antecedent conditions.

One can have a motive, and yet have a reason to go against that motive.​

Yes. You want to go to the pub, but you have a reason to go to the gym. There's no need for us to keep repeating this.

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If you are arguing that determinism is reason... Is that what you are saying?​

Determinism is simple cause and effect. Nothing happens without it being caused. Literally nothing. Our good friends antecedent conditions determine what happens. Else things happen without being caused. Which is nonsensical. Reason is why you did something. You make a sandwich, you know why you did it so you can give me the reasons why you did it. What you won't know, or at least won't be aware of are most of the antecedent conditions.

​

Deuteronomy 30:19, 20 reads.​

We can skip the biblical quotes. I won't be reading them.

​

​

There is reason in choices.​

I plant a tree for a reason. No one makes a decision for no reason.​

That would be next to not thinking, but just acting, and that is not what anybody does.​

Yet, they are not acting based on what has been determined.​

What has been determined are all the antecedent conditions. How can you make a decision if you ignore the current conditions? You can't act in a vacuum.

Yes, it's clear that you believe soldiers prefer to get shot at.

I'm pretty sure they don't. Nobody wants to risk their life. But people prefer to join up and go to war rather than do nothing and rely on others to do the fighting. Rather obviously I would have thought. That said, I'm a little concerned that you don't understand the point I am making. Being the difference between wanting something yet preferring something else.