Free or not?

HeLeadethMe · May 29, 2017

Anyone who is "a slave to their desires" is not a slave to rigthteousness.........it means they are lost, perishing. Read the bible..........and learn brother. But you must be WILLING to lose your desires. Jesus said to count the cost........yes, we have a big part in our own salvation, our part is to sell all that we have in order to buy the pearl of great price. DIE to self, DIE to our desires and earthly affections.

jimmyjimmy · May 29, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
Are you saying Adam and Eve were forced to sin, or that we are forced to sin? Adam and Eve didn't even have the excuse that there were problems/lacks in their life .....all was good in the Garden. The nature we have, can be tempted to sin, that is all....simply by virtue of having free will......made in God's image. We are not forced to sin ever. Jesus even went so far as to say that we are not to resist an evil person........we can choose to obey Jesus with the Help of His Spirit, or we can choose to kill.........we never have an excuse to go our own way...........we can never be "forced" against our WILL. I'm afraid that is carnal thinking..........whereas we are to be transformed by the washing of the water of the word.......into new creatures having the mind of Christ.

It not sure it's possible to misunderstand in a greater way than you have me.

HeLeadethMe said:
Are you saying Adam and Eve were forced to sin, or that we are forced to sin?

No. Quite the opposite.

HeLeadethMe said:
we can never be "forced" against our WILL.

That was my point. The man with a gun to his head was NOT forced to hand over his wallet. Do you believe that?

jimmyjimmy · May 29, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
Anyone who is "a slave to their desires" is not a slave to rigthteousness.........it means they are lost, perishing. Read the bible..........and learn brother. But you must be WILLING to lose your desires. Jesus said to count the cost........yes, we have a big part in our own salvation, our part is to sell all that we have in order to buy the pearl of great price. DIE to self, DIE to our desires and earthly affections.

Have you ever done anything contrary to your greatest desire?

HeLeadethMe · May 29, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
It not sure it's possible to misunderstand in a greater way than you have me.

No. Quite the opposite.

That was my point. The man with a gun to his head was NOT forced to hand over his wallet. Do you believe that?

Oh I see, sorry for misunderstanding jimmy.........we are in agreement then, YES I absolutely agree he was NOT forced. He chose, He made a decision, he exercised his WILL in other words.

jimmyjimmy · May 29, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
Oh I see, sorry for misunderstanding jimmy.........we are in agreement then, YES I absolutely agree he was NOT forced. He chose, He made a decision, he exercised his WILL in other words.

Have you ever done anything contrary to your greatest desire?

HeLeadethMe · May 29, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Have you ever done anything contrary to your greatest desire?

yes, for sure........that is a daily walk for the follower of Christ, though we do go through times of greater or lesser testing. Take up your cross, DENY yourSELF.

Impossible for man.......but with GOD, ie, His Spirit, nothing is impossible.

jimmyjimmy · May 29, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
yes, for sure........that is a daily walk for the follower of Christ, though we do go through times of greater or lesser testing. Take up your cross, DENY yourSELF.

Impossible for man.......but with GOD, ie, His Spirit, nothing is impossible.

Would you mind naming one instance in which you acting in manner contrary to your greatest desire. You don't have to go into great detail. Thanks.

LadyCrosstalk · May 29, 2017

Reformationist said:
But something prior to the Fall changed that though, right?

That something was, I believe, a strength turned to weakness under the influence of Satan. I will explain. When you look at the account of the Fall, the first thing that stands out, in a careful reading, is that Eve was already well under Satan's influence before she actually fell. She lied in saying that she and Adam were not even permitted to touch the forbidden fruit (unless Adam lied in the telling of the prohibition but my guess would be that he did not). Adam was right there with her--he could have corrected her, since he got the true prohibition. He should have protected her. Why didn't he? Was he like the parent who fails to correct his child? Shakespeare summed up that kind of parent as, "loving not wisely but too well". Even then, Adam did not have to compound the catastrophe by eating the forbidden fruit himself, but, again, did he calculate that Eve would be destroyed by her disobedience and that he would be alone again? Did he "love not wisely but too well"?

And what happens if we turn to sin and sensuality after our new birth?

I believe that David was born again, yet he turned to sin and sensuality. I say that because, Jesus scolded Nicodemus for not understanding what it meant to be "born again". David was forgiven after his great sin with Bathsheba and murdering her husband.

We have an advantage over David in that his rebirth did not include the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and ours does. David begged God to not take the Holy Spirit away from him (Psalm 51:11). I do not believe that God ever takes His Spirit from one who has become part of the Bride of Christ.

Reformationist · May 29, 2017

EmSw said:
I'm not claiming to be John.

Oh good. That would be awkward if you were.

Do you not believe his words?

Every jot and tittle...

Where did you get 'perfectly'? It's something you made up.

I love when people make this kind of nonsensical distinction. Let me spell it out for you: There is ZERO difference between "keep His commandments" and "keep His commandments perfectly."

Are you so confused that you think God demands obedience just...sometimes? God demands PERFECT obedience.

Do you believe perfectly?

No.

So, if you don't repent, do you think you can escape perishing?

What believer doesn't repent? Why ask a strawman question? That's like asking me, "So, is God going to turn away a person with no faith that seeks Him?" Completely ridiculous.

Will you mock Jesus' words?

Of course not, just your silly, unbiblical understanding of Jesus' Word.

Why not tell us that God WILL NOT render eternal life to those who continue to do good.

Um...why would I do that? Are you under the impression I believe God won't render eternal life to His followers?

Continue to obey your unrighteousness, and see where that leads.

Seriously, what are you talking about? Does the nonsense you post even make sense to you? What unrighteousness?

Surely you must be talking about these words He will say -

Matthew 25:21
His lord said to him, ‘Well done, GOOD and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

WELL DONE!

I sincerely hope He does say those words to you. If He does, it will be because He had mercy on you, a sinner, not because you were worthy. Same with the rest of us.

Reformationist · May 29, 2017

EmSw said:
How did Adam and Eve act in a manner contrary to their original nature? You say it's impossible. Did God create them with a 'sin' nature?

I actually have this same question, and I've never seen an adequate explanation.

Reformationist · May 29, 2017

EmSw said:
Why are you still willing to sin, if you have a 'new' nature? Did all things become new, or do you freely choose to intentionally sin against your 'new' nature?

I still choose to sin because sin is still at work in my body. Though my nature has been changed, my vessel remains weak. And yes, obviously, when I choose to sin it's because I freely seek to submit to my flesh instead of my new nature.

How's that?

Reformationist · May 29, 2017

sandpiper22 said:
Were they spiritually alive ? No.

I've never heard that before. Very interesting. Is there scriptural support for that? I'd love to see it.

ALL created beings are prone to sin, and if God does not intervene, none will make it past sin.

So sinning is inherent and unavoidable to the human condition, even prior to the Fall?

Reformationist · May 29, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
We have an eternal soul which is able to make choices, to either submit itself to God's rule or the devil's rule.

I am assuming the "we" to which you refer is "all people without exception." If so, how does this jibe with Romans 8:7?

Understand that we are elect according to God's FOREKNOWLEDGE, 1 Peter 1:2 not because He chose who to save and who to let perish........because the word also says He is willing that none would perish.

Seeing as how many do, in fact, perish, what does it mean to you that God isn't "willing" that any should perish?

Reformationist · May 29, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
Sorry but wow, this is just completely antithetical to the gospel......

Or maybe, you have just misunderstood. Judging by the rest of this post, I'm guessing that's it.

I'm flabbergasted that someone who considers themselves a Christian would say this.......if you believe this then you cannot be a follower of Christ, you are following something else entirely.......the opposite. What do you suppose overcoming is all about?

Again, I'm pretty sure you've applied a meaning to my words I never meant.

Your theology is a license to sin........eat drink and rise up to play for tomorrow we die. But we are told to overcome our sin/desires.

Tell me, do you have any righteous desires or is "desires" a trigger word for you meaning "carnality?"

May I ask, what denomination do you belong to and what/who do you read/listen to?

Sure. I'm a Christian. If you're asking who my theological perspective most closely aligns with, that would probably be Presbyterian (PCA). I listen to and read a ton of information from a bunch of different authors.

Do you read the bible, or maybe paraphrased versions...?

Yes, I study the Scriptures, though, admittedly, not as often as I should. My preferred translation is ESV, which is not a paraphrased version.

I will pray for your salvation.

Thank you so much. And I will pray for yours.

Reformationist · May 29, 2017

HeLeadethMe said:
Anyone who is "a slave to their desires" is not a slave to rigthteousness.

Unless, of course, the desires are righteous. Oops...that throws a little monkey wrench in your diatribe.

But you must be WILLING to lose your desires.

On the contrary, cultivate and nurture righteous desires. Don't lose those. Lol!

yes, we have a big part in our own salvation, our part is to sell all that we have in order to buy the pearl of great price. DIE to self, DIE to our desires and earthly affections.

That would be sanctification, not salvation. That, we DO have a part in.

Albion · May 29, 2017

Reformationist said:
I thought it might be helpful if we start at the beginning of the creation account of mankind. When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature?

No.

Were they created with a will, i.e., were they volition creatures upon creation?

Yes.

If so, was that will free?

Yes.

If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.?

Both.

What influences, pre-Fall, would contribute to the choices they made.

Hard to say.

When Adam and Eve chose to rebell against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?

Changed. This is laid out for you in the Bible account.

Reformationist · May 29, 2017

Albion said:
This is laid out for you in the Bible account.

I daresay the answer to every question asked on this message board is "laid out in the Bible account."

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Albion · May 29, 2017

Reformationist said:
I daresay the answer to every question asked on this message board is "laid out in the Bible account."

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Very well then, I wish you the best in your quest for answers to the questions you asked.

FWIW, some of them are not absolutely clear cut in Genesis, but what was changed for Adam and Eve because of their sin is almost laboriously itemized in Scripture, and I'd think that anyone who is concerned to know the specifics would, therefore, be eager to read it for himself.

EmSw · May 29, 2017

Reformationist said:
Oh good. That would be awkward if you were.

Every jot and tittle...

Then why are you acting as if you don't need to keep His commandments to have His truth in you?

Reformationist said:
I love when people make this kind of nonsensical distinction. Let me spell it out for you: There is ZERO difference between "keep His commandments" and "keep His commandments perfectly."

Are you so confused that you think God demands obedience just...sometimes? God demands PERFECT obedience.

Zero difference? Are you a bag of laughs? Is there any difference of a student answering every question and answering every question perfectly?

You can't provide any passage which says keep His commandments perfectly, and you know it. You made this up so you can make your own rules. We all will be waiting for you to provide such a passage.

And since you don't believe perfectly, why should you get eternal life? You have failed and come up short in believing, according to your Reformed theory.

Reformationist said:
What believer doesn't repent? Why ask a strawman question? That's like asking me, "So, is God going to turn away a person with no faith that seeks Him?" Completely ridiculous.

So, you weren't passive. You said you were. Were you lying earlier or now?

Reformationist said:
Of course not, just your silly, unbiblical understanding of Jesus' Word.

Do think it's silly to keep His commandments to enter life?

Reformationist said:
Um...why would I do that? Are you under the impression I believe God won't render eternal life to His followers?

It doesn't say to His followers; it says to those who do good. Read it again, and this time with the right words. Maybe you should write your own Bible and word it the way you desire.

Reformationist said:
Seriously, what are you talking about? Does the nonsense you post even make sense to you? What unrighteousness?

John says those who do righteousness are righteous. Passive people don't DO anything, remember. Surely you know that. Maybe you changed that in your Bible also.

Reformationist said:
I sincerely hope He does say those words to you. If He does, it will be because He had mercy on you, a sinner, not because you were worthy. Same with the rest of us.

He can't say that to passive people.

And what wrong with being worthy of Jesus?

Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Again, passive people aren't worthy of Jesus.

EmSw · May 29, 2017

Reformationist said:
I actually have this same question, and I've never seen an adequate explanation.

Really? The Reformed say you can't act contrary to your nature. Does your own belief confuse you?

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