If God gave us free choice (or will) to choose to be saved or reject salvation, then wouldn't that make our choice the ultimate factor in whether we are saved or not? If this is so, then isn't this salvation by merit and not by grace?
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LukeBritt,
One other caveat, in may places the word salvation is used to refer to the ultimate goal which is the salvation of man.
Then, to begin, one must understand the fall and the correlation between what was in the beginning and what happened at the fall. There is a direct correlation and it must be followed otherwise you will have the problem that generates this above question.
Let us leave out the whole concept of the fall as if the fall never happened. Adam was created in the Image of God which for this discussion includes having a will. A will that is independent of God's will.
Adam was made good and neutral. By that we mean he was neither mortal nor immortal. Adam had the propensity to achieve either. If he remained in union with God, in direct communication with God man would have achieve and fulfilled the purpose of God creating man in the first place.
This aspect of the purpose of man is the salvation of man. Adam was working with God, using his free will, to fulfill God's mandate for his creation in this universe. This is what we are supposed to be doing in the year 2000 as well.
If you can keep those to aspects separated for a moment, now let us throw in the fall.
Adam sinned. He used his free will to disobey a direct commandent of God and gave in to Satan. Thus the punishment to man and mankind, was death - mortality. Man died and this punishment was consubstantial with our natures. We would inherit this trait of mortality by birth. This is a physical death. This state of death also makes us sin. We sin because we are dead. Thus the phrase dead in our sins and treaspasses.
Thus Adam's sin brought death (mortaltiy) but also separation from God. God and man could not be in Union, nor commune as they had before the fall. Death for man was permanent. Upon death man's body and soul would be separated permanently and thus all human beings would cease to exist.
Thus the question comes, what could man do to move from a mortal state to an immortal one? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. A dead man cannot bring life to himself. As long as man was in this mortal state there would be no hope of ever attaining immortality, (for which we were originally created to be) nor could he ever have communion with God because it would all end in death. There was absolutely no eternal status to mankind or the universe.
What is the answer?
Christ would become man. God would assume man's nature in order to redeem it. To bring it back to life. To move mankind from a mortal state to an immortal state. How is this done?
By assuming man's nature, a consubstantiality with our natures, Christ can by His own death and resurrection, bring life to all of mankind. All of mankind would be eternal. Man thus moved from being mortal to immortal. Mankind now has an eternal quality which eliminates one reason that God could not have unioin with man. It now could last eternally. Also, none would be lost, or destroyed. All men would live.
That was the root problem of man. Death. However, man would still be in a mortal body in this life. Thus man would also still sin in this life. Christ needed to overcome the sin factor as well which He also accomplished by His death. He atoned for the world. He paid the penalty of our sins which would have been eternal death, the second death, or spiritual death. Man can be reconciled to God by forgiveness of his sins and thus God can have union and communion with man in the here and now as well as eternally.
We enter back into union, since Christ corrected the fall, by faith. That is all that is required, faith to overcome the fall which Christ did for us, for the world, for mankind. Man had absolutely nothing to do with it.
However, the union which is what we accomplish with this faith. is what man was supposed to be doing as created creatures. Man, as Adam, now has freedom to obey, to follow Christ, to be obedient to Him, to love Him, as God created him to be.
Those that do not believe are already condemned.
Now, I hope you can rephrase your question. The free will of man has absolutely nothing to do with being saved. All mankind were saved from the fall. BUT, man must make a choice who they will follow. They have been freed and restored in order that they can do this very thing. God has reconciled man so that man could again fulfill his created mandate which is what man fell from when Adam sinned.
Thus the whole thing is all Grace. The saving by Christ in overcoming the fall and being saved which is the salvation of man which is the purpose or reason for Christ's Work on the Cross. We do this all through God.
I'll try one more time to show the difference between the word "saved' past tense and the word salvation or "being saved" as used in Scripture.
One other caveat, in may places the word salvation is used to refer to the ultimate goal which is the salvation of man.
Then, to begin, one must understand the fall and the correlation between what was in the beginning and what happened at the fall. There is a direct correlation and it must be followed otherwise you will have the problem that generates this above question.
Let us leave out the whole concept of the fall as if the fall never happened. Adam was created in the Image of God which for this discussion includes having a will. A will that is independent of God's will.
Adam was made good and neutral. By that we mean he was neither mortal nor immortal. Adam had the propensity to achieve either. If he remained in union with God, in direct communication with God man would have achieve and fulfilled the purpose of God creating man in the first place.
This aspect of the purpose of man is the salvation of man. Adam was working with God, using his free will, to fulfill God's mandate for his creation in this universe. This is what we are supposed to be doing in the year 2000 as well.
If you can keep those to aspects separated for a moment, now let us throw in the fall.
Adam sinned. He used his free will to disobey a direct commandent of God and gave in to Satan. Thus the punishment to man and mankind, was death - mortality. Man died and this punishment was consubstantial with our natures. We would inherit this trait of mortality by birth. This is a physical death. This state of death also makes us sin. We sin because we are dead. Thus the phrase dead in our sins and treaspasses.
Thus Adam's sin brought death (mortaltiy) but also separation from God. God and man could not be in Union, nor commune as they had before the fall. Death for man was permanent. Upon death man's body and soul would be separated permanently and thus all human beings would cease to exist.
Thus the question comes, what could man do to move from a mortal state to an immortal one? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. A dead man cannot bring life to himself. As long as man was in this mortal state there would be no hope of ever attaining immortality, (for which we were originally created to be) nor could he ever have communion with God because it would all end in death. There was absolutely no eternal status to mankind or the universe.
What is the answer?
Christ would become man. God would assume man's nature in order to redeem it. To bring it back to life. To move mankind from a mortal state to an immortal state. How is this done?
By assuming man's nature, a consubstantiality with our natures, Christ can by His own death and resurrection, bring life to all of mankind. All of mankind would be eternal. Man thus moved from being mortal to immortal. Mankind now has an eternal quality which eliminates one reason that God could not have unioin with man. It now could last eternally. Also, none would be lost, or destroyed. All men would live.
That was the root problem of man. Death. However, man would still be in a mortal body in this life. Thus man would also still sin in this life. Christ needed to overcome the sin factor as well which He also accomplished by His death. He atoned for the world. He paid the penalty of our sins which would have been eternal death, the second death, or spiritual death. Man can be reconciled to God by forgiveness of his sins and thus God can have union and communion with man in the here and now as well as eternally.
We enter back into union, since Christ corrected the fall, by faith. That is all that is required, faith to overcome the fall which Christ did for us, for the world, for mankind. Man had absolutely nothing to do with it.
However, the union which is what we accomplish with this faith. is what man was supposed to be doing as created creatures. Man, as Adam, now has freedom to obey, to follow Christ, to be obedient to Him, to love Him, as God created him to be.
Those that do not believe are already condemned.
Now, I hope you can rephrase your question. The free will of man has absolutely nothing to do with being saved. All mankind were saved from the fall. BUT, man must make a choice who they will follow. They have been freed and restored in order that they can do this very thing. God has reconciled man so that man could again fulfill his created mandate which is what man fell from when Adam sinned.
Thus the whole thing is all Grace. The saving by Christ in overcoming the fall and being saved which is the salvation of man which is the purpose or reason for Christ's Work on the Cross. We do this all through God.
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This is irrelevant to the topic...
Justification means we have been saved, Sanctification means that we are being saved, and Glorification means that we will be saved...
Can you show Scripture for you opinion of us mankind being saved?
Justification means we have been saved, Sanctification means that we are being saved, and Glorification means that we will be saved...
Can you show Scripture for you opinion of us mankind being saved?
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No, exercising your will does not accomplish anything. God reborns people. Someone cannot reborn himself even if he wants to. Actually, the ultimate factor is not only if you want to be reborn, but if you want to and beleive and accept Gods salvation in Christ. A person that wants to be reborn and don't believe in Jesus cannot be saved. God reborns people on the basis of their faith. Faith IN ITSELF does not save you. God does.
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LukeBritt,
It is the precise answer to your question which was based on an improper question based on a faulty presupposition.
However, the justification you are referring to, justification by faith, is the believer laying hold of the work of Christ. We cannot do it ourselves, we simply by faith believe.
In your understanding of justification, the will is involved. It is acting upon the call, the work, the influencing of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh. An external work of the Holy Spirit upon all men.
Sanctification is also a use of our wills. It is our obligation to remain IN Christ. Remaining there, enduring, maturing, being faithful is an act of man's free will.
The third is the result of our faithfulness.
It is the precise answer to your question which was based on an improper question based on a faulty presupposition.
this is correct but not the way you are understanding it. All mankind have been justified. That is what Christ accomplished on the Cross. Placed mankind in a correct relationship with the Father. It is also called reconciliation or redemption. It is past tense.
However, the justification you are referring to, justification by faith, is the believer laying hold of the work of Christ. We cannot do it ourselves, we simply by faith believe.
This is also correct. We are working with God towards conforming to His Image. Becoming the Mind of Christ. Working to maturity as a Christian.
Correct also. Confirmation, inheriting the promises IF we indeed endured to the end.
In your understanding of justification, the will is involved. It is acting upon the call, the work, the influencing of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh. An external work of the Holy Spirit upon all men.
Sanctification is also a use of our wills. It is our obligation to remain IN Christ. Remaining there, enduring, maturing, being faithful is an act of man's free will.
The third is the result of our faithfulness.
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Philip DT,
It actually accomplishes everything. You have a misunderstanding of what occurs in a synergistic relationship. Man simply permits the action of God to happen in his life. The repentance is granted by God, the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelt is done by God, santifying is done by God, Rebirth is done by God, but none of it will ever occur unless man permits or agrees that it will happen. God does not impart these gifts arbitrarily. He does not give them to those who are unwilling to accept His Rich and Gracious Offer of salvation. Man must align his will with that of God's will, then everything works to God's will. But man is certainly free to withdraw as he was able to accept the offer at any time.
When you get to the end of your quote, you seem to be saying it correctly. You are also correct in that faith does not save you in and of itself. Even saying God does is not correct because it takes man to permit the action of God. God does not force man, does not coerce man, man is free to obey or not to obey. To love or not to love.
It actually accomplishes everything. You have a misunderstanding of what occurs in a synergistic relationship. Man simply permits the action of God to happen in his life. The repentance is granted by God, the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelt is done by God, santifying is done by God, Rebirth is done by God, but none of it will ever occur unless man permits or agrees that it will happen. God does not impart these gifts arbitrarily. He does not give them to those who are unwilling to accept His Rich and Gracious Offer of salvation. Man must align his will with that of God's will, then everything works to God's will. But man is certainly free to withdraw as he was able to accept the offer at any time.
When you get to the end of your quote, you seem to be saying it correctly. You are also correct in that faith does not save you in and of itself. Even saying God does is not correct because it takes man to permit the action of God. God does not force man, does not coerce man, man is free to obey or not to obey. To love or not to love.
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LukeBritt,
I missed this last question in your previous post, so......
God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; Eph 1:10; John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32 They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.
I missed this last question in your previous post, so......
God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; Eph 1:10; John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32 They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.
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The same reason that many people eat fast food and neglect to burn off calories and fat afterwards.cygnusx1 said:
Do you see the analogy? It is hard to work out enough to make up for one's fast food intake, fast food tastes better than light eating and is easier to get, you don't see the results immediately (you lose motivation/determination), and you don't expect a little fast food now and then to hurt you later on. This doesn't mean that people who do this were predestinated to eat fast food, it means that they have grown used to it (habit), it is quick/easy (idleness), and you only gradually begin to see the negative effects you get from eating it (just like with sin).
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Sojourner, I agree that God does not save people regardless of their own will. What I am trying to show is that man's will is not a work of the law. The fact that man has to believe in order to be saved therefore does not contribute to synergism. Synergism refers to "sun" - together + "ergo" - work. And the human will and faith is not a work.
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Philip dT,
Faith, initial faith is a gift, we exercise it, we are obligated to make it grow, to be strengthened, to mature and that is work, synergistic work with the Holy Spirit.
I'm not really sure just what point you are trying to make here. Our will has nothing to do with the law respective of our being saved by the work of Christ.
Faith, initial faith is a gift, we exercise it, we are obligated to make it grow, to be strengthened, to mature and that is work, synergistic work with the Holy Spirit.
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Faith unto salvation is an ability to all people, it is not imparted as a means of salvation. If so, then faith was pointless, for God would then impart His own belief in Himself. Imparted faith is as if God believes in Himself through man - and God does not have to - He already does. Man has to believe. But faith and the will to believe is by no means a work and cannot be reckoned as synergism. If you mean synergism AFTER salvation, then I agree, but our choice to believe in order to be saved is not synergism.
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Yes.LukeBritt said:
No, that is a heterodox position. Calvinists and Arminians differ over whether or not a person can freely accept or reject God, Arminians have never said that we deserve to be saved in the first place. There is a difference.
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Forest said:
Salvation is something done to you, not with you. Your salvation is the product of a covenant established between and accomplished by the members of the Godhead. God didn't ask you, "Hey, do you want to be saved, check yes or no." He has set apart a people to the glory of His Son, and will save them. No losses. No unexpected turn of events. No one whom God seeks to save will ever fully and finally reject Him.
The problem with the supposition you present above is that it doesn't make the authority and purpose of the gift Giver the determinative factor in whether His will is accomplished. You place the focus on the response of the person who benefits from the mercy of God's graciousness, even though his response isn't even a part of the equation as to whether God regenerates him from death in his trespasses and sins to life in Christ.
When salvation is viewed as an offer that God proposes for either your acceptance or rejection it is incongruous to claim that God desires your salvation. You see, we're talking about an omnipotent Being that seeks first His own glory. If He is more concerned with your free will ability to reject Him then His efforts to save you must take a back seat. It is illogical to contend that an authoritative, omnipotent Being desires something that He does not achieve simply because an impotent being says "no thanks."
God bless
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