Fr. Ralph Martin - Will Many Be Saved?

[concretecamper]

Baptism is required for Salvation. Then reception of the Eucharist is then required, but need only be received once a year.

How does a protestant received the Eucharist?

 

[Basil the Great]

That's a nice try, and I appreciate it, but this is a most definitive statement about all who are outside the Church. Time and circumstances are not admissible as reasons, according to this statement. It is clear and unambiguous that pagans, Jews, heretics (Protestants, especially those who have been for many years hearing the apologia of the Church through men like Scott Hahn and David Armstrong) and schismatics (such as all those who are of the Holy Orthodox Churches) are NOT GOING TO HEAVEN.

Now for heaven's sake, don't try to whitewash this! This is a plain and blunt statement that Vatican II just basically tossed in the trash with their own clean and blunt statement that these people are no longer to be called "heretics and schismatics" but "separated brethren."

Both statements cannot be true, and the worst part about this is that if I subscribe to the belief that the Church, speaking in councils, is infallible, then we have a serious problem here, don't we?

I mean, I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, but these are really clear and plain statements. And they leave me with a very uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Wow... As strange as this may sound, this Protestant wishes to thank St_Barnabus for his very sincere post and I do mean that from the bottom of my heart!

 

[Basil the Great]

Wow! You really don't get it, do you?

Both councils - Florence in 1442 and VII in 1961 - meet those requirements. They are infallible, yet they contradict each other.

Explain.

The SSPX folks and others like them contend that Vatican II was only a Pastoral Council and that therefore the VII teachings are not to be considered infallible. While I see their reasoning, I personally find it to be a bit of a stretch. Vatican II was still an Ecumenical Council and it's teachings were reportedly approved by the Pope. It seems like splitting hairs to say that a Pastoral Council's teachings are not necessarily infallible. Still, in all fairness to the SSPX and other Traditionalists, I find their position to be just as sound, if not more sound, than those who say that the VII teachings and the Papal Bulls of the Middle Ages do not really contradict each other, as five hundred years have passed since the Reformation and almost 1000 years since the Great Schism. Therefore, Protestants and Orthodox are excused, due to their "invincible ignorance". It goes without saying that us Protestants and Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox should be thankful for the VII teaching on Ecumenism or at least we better hope that the VII teaching is correct.....

 

[Basil the Great]

How does a protestant received the Eucharist?

A Protestant can receive the Eucharist if he/she is properly disposed (goes to Confession), lives in an area of the world where his/her denomination's congregation is unavailable (or a like congregation I suppose) and he/she believes in the Catholic Church's understanding of the Eucharist. Some rural or small town setting in Latin America would seem to be most likely fit this scenario or perhaps rural areas in Southern Europe?

However, in all fairness to concretecamper, very few Protestants would meet the requirement to validly receive Catholic Communion.

 

[~Anastasia~]

A Protestant can receive the Eucharist if he/she is properly disposed (goes to Confession), lives in an area of the world where his/her denomination's congregation is unavailable (or a like congregation I suppose) and he/she believes in the Catholic Church's understanding of the Eucharist. Some rural or small town setting in Latin America would seem to be most likely fit this scenario or perhaps rural areas in Southern Europe?

Does this mean a Catholic priest will also offer sacramental Confession to a Protestant under those circumstances?

Interesting, in any case.

 

[Basil the Great]

Does this mean a Catholic priest will also offer sacramental Confession to a Protestant under those circumstances?

Interesting, in any case.

Good question, Anastasia. I believe the answer is basically the same as the requirement for the Eucharist. A Protestant would need to accept the Catholic understanding of the Sacrament of Penance and believe that a Catholic priest has the power to forgive sins. Obviously, both Protestants and Catholics would ask the question, why does such a Protestant not convert?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Good question, Anastasia. I believe the answer is basically the same as the requirement for the Eucharist. A Protestant would need to accept the Catholic understanding of the Sacrament of Penance and believe that a Catholic priest has the power to forgive sins. Obviously, both Protestants and Catholics would ask the question, why does such a Protestant not convert?

It seems like that would be a question to ask, if the person agreed with those (and all the other required beliefs) and wanted the Sacraments.

I'm not Catholic, and we have Sacraments, and are not allowed to receive Sacraments outside our Communion (except maybe with special permission or in a life and death situation). But at the same time, I'm thankful when I hear of efforts to meet the pastoral needs of people.

I was just curious.

 

[Light of the East]

Baptism is required for Salvation. Then reception of the Eucharist is then required, but need only be received once a year.

If what Jesus said about the Eucharist is true, that it is the source of eternal life (John 6: 53-54) why in the world would one not wish to feed upon Him every week?

Children receive their first communion around seven years of age, which is the age of reason. Then after they may receive anytime they are in a state of grace, or once a year as the minimum requirement by the Church.

If what Jesus said about the Eucharist is true, that it is the source of eternal life (John 6: 53-54) why in the world would the Church wish to keep its children from eternal life?

 

[BroIgnatius]

How does a protestant received the Eucharist?

A Protestant cannot receive the Eucharist. Their ministers are not valid priests and thus cannot confect the Eucharist. Those same Protestants cannot receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church because they are not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Baptism is required for Salvation. Then reception of the Eucharist is then required, but need only be received once a year.

If what Jesus said about the Eucharist is true, that it is the source of eternal life (John 6: 53-54) why in the world would one not wish to feed upon Him every week?

Children receive their first communion around seven years of age, which is the age of reason. Then after they may receive anytime they are in a state of grace, or once a year as the minimum requirement by the Church.

If what Jesus said about the Eucharist is true, that it is the source of eternal life (John 6: 53-54) why in the world would the Church wish to keep its children from eternal life?

A normal person living a devout life will wish to receive the Eucharist weekly or more often. The Church, however, has set as a minimum requirement of once per year. The Church must deal with a global community. There are many differing needs and circumstances. Thus, the once per year minimum requirement. There are some remote areas of the world, for example, where the people are lucky to be able to receive the Eucharist once per year.

 

[concretecamper]

A Protestant cannot receive the Eucharist. Their ministers are not valid priests and thus cannot confect the Eucharist. Those same Protestants cannot receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church because they are not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

So Protestants have valid Baptisms which according to a Dogma of the Church is needed for Salvation but they do not receive the Eucharist which according to a Dogma of the Church appears to be needed by a person who has reached the age of reason. A life long protestant does not receive the Eucharist. According to the Church, how are protestant saved?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Though the grace of God.

 

[concretecamper]

Though the grace of God.

That is how all of us are saved.

But, if what you answered is the Church's teaching....what is the point of The Catholic Church and the Sacraments?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

That is how all of us are saved.

But, if what you answered is the Church's teaching....what is the point of The Catholic Church and the Sacraments?

One could argue that the church is the safest way to heaven whereby protestants are facing uncertainty.

It is ultimately the grace of God that saves and he's free to save whoever he wishes.

To me personally it makes no sense that people who've loved and served Christ their entire life on earth should be left for Satan and his angels just because they failed to find the church.
But this is my pov.

 

[~Anastasia~]

One could argue that the church is the safest way to heaven whereby protestants are facing uncertainty.

It is ultimately the grace of God that saves and he's free to save whoever he wishes.

To me personally it makes no sense that people who've loved and served Christ their entire life on earth should be left for Satan and his angels just because they failed to find the church.
But this is my pov.

No criticism, just curiosity?

Do Catholics believe their salvation is assured, based on what they do regarding Sacraments, etc? I've read a bit of the catechism about the Sacraments, and my guess would be that with matters so carefully spelled out, Catholics do tend to think they know exactly where they stand at any given moment?

I'm just curious if that is a correct assessment of Catholic beliefs?

 

[MikeK]

To me personally it makes no sense that people who've loved and served Christ their entire life on earth should be left for Satan and his angels just because they failed to find the church.
But this is my pov.

At the end of the day, I guess we have to decide if we believe God to be a bloodthirsty monster who is okay with millions being ensnared by and confused into incorrect beliefs in their finite Earthly lives that result in eternal torture, or if we believe in a merciful God.

 

[concretecamper]

No criticism, just curiosity?

Do Catholics believe their salvation is assured, based on what they do regarding Sacraments, etc? I've read a bit of the catechism about the Sacraments, and my guess would be that with matters so carefully spelled out, Catholics do tend to think they know exactly where they stand at any given moment?

I'm just curious if that is a correct assessment of Catholic beliefs?

All Catholics are obliged to believe that Water Baptism is necessary for Salvation.
All Catholics are obliged to believe that Sacramental confession is required for those who fall into grievous sin.
All Catholics are obliged to believe that reception of the Eucharist (for those of the age of reason) is necessary for Salvation.


The Sacraments are a big deal. The Catholic Church teaches that the Church was founded by Jesus Christ and that He instituted the Sacraments within the Church for the Salvation of Men.

So, my question still stands. How do Catholics, who are required to believe the Church's Dogmas, view the Salvation of Protestants? I am not looking for mushy "God is not evil" nonsense, but authentic Church teaching. Something from the CCC would be nice.

Now I understand it is in all God will who He saves...we all believe that. But that still begs the question of Why the Catholic Church?

 

[concretecamper]

One could argue that the church is the safest way to heaven whereby protestants are facing uncertainty.

Why would God make Salvation uncertain for anyone? God is Just. Making Salvation uncertain is not Just.

To me personally it makes no sense that people who've loved and served Christ their entire life on earth should be left for Satan and his angels just because they failed to find the church.
But this is my pov.

I truly hope your personal sentiments are correct. But they remain our personal sentiments only.

 

[Light of the East]

One could argue that the church is the safest way to heaven whereby protestants are facing uncertainty.

It is ultimately the grace of God that saves and he's free to save whoever he wishes.

To me personally it makes no sense that people who've loved and served Christ their entire life on earth should be left for Satan and his angels just because they failed to find the church.
But this is my pov.

Yeah, but what's your excuse for refusing to enter the Church? It's not like you are some pagan in the rain forest of Brazil. Seems that you have not so much "failed to find the Church" as simply said "Uh uh. I'm smarter than that."

But correct me if you think I'm wrong.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Yeah, but what's your excuse for refusing to enter the Church? It's not like you are some pagan in the rain forest of Brazil. Seems that you have not so much "failed to find the Church" as simply said "Uh uh. I'm smarter than that."

But correct me if you think I'm wrong.

I am Catholic...