Fr. Ralph Martin - Will Many Be Saved?

[Light of the East]

I am Catholic...

Are you ashamed to put that in your "religion" line?

Oh, I see. I looked at the "faith" line and not under your name.

My bad.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

nm

 

[Light of the East]

Like I said.....my bad.

So give me a few extra years in hell.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Like I said.....my bad.

So give me a few extra years in hell.

What an odd way to respond...
I wrote nm because it didn't apply because you clarified it by editing your post.

I wish you all good brother and btw just to be nitpicking a tiny bit, hell is an eternal state for a lost soul NOT that you're one of those souls.

Take care brother.

 

[BroIgnatius]

So Protestants have valid Baptisms which according to a Dogma of the Church is needed for Salvation but they do not receive the Eucharist which according to a Dogma of the Church appears to be needed by a person who has reached the age of reason. A life long protestant does not receive the Eucharist. According to the Church, how are protestant saved?

In order to receive the Eucharist one must be in full communion. Since Protestants are not, they cannot receive. This does not mean that they cannot be saved.

The Catechism gives the answer:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? (Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21; L 3,1169; De unit. L 4,509-536.) Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.)

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.)

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men." (338 AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.)

And again:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent." (131 RP 17 § 12.)

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."(132 Mk 10:19.) The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart (Cf. Mk 3:5-6; Lk 16:19-31.) do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

[Basil the Great]

In order to receive the Eucharist one must be in full communion. Since Protestants are not, they cannot receive. This does not mean that they cannot be saved.

The Catechism gives the answer:




And again:

Protestants are allowed to receive the Eucharist in rare circumstances, as I previously stated. We are probably talking about very rare circumstances, but the slim possibility still exists.

 

[concretecamper]

So which is correct...

Lumen Gentium as quoted in the CCC

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

or


Catholic Church Dogma

Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.



The CCC seems to suggest exceptions where the wording of the Dogma clearly says there are none.

 

[BroIgnatius]

[duplicate posting by mistake. See my post below]

 

[BroIgnatius]

So which is correct...

The CCC seems to suggest exceptions where the wording of the Dogma clearly says there are none.

Lumen Gentium does not violate any dogma, and, I might add, the teaching of it existed before Vatican II.

Exceptions to what appears to be the closed system of the dogma do exist and are recognized by the Council of Trent and the Church fathers, two of which witness to Tradition are St. Ambrose and St. Augustine. These particular exceptions are as stated:

In the case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism of Blood (Sententia fidei proxima).

The Council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not possible "without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the same" [my emphasis] (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto). D 706. Cf. D 847, 388, 413.

--quoted from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, Section 2, I, §4, 2)

So we see that according to the Church Fathers and the Council there are exceptions.

The problem here is we have people who pretend to have the competence and authority to interpret dogma and doctrine for themselves. No one, other than the Pope and Magisterium in union with him, has the competence, charism, or authority to interpret. Neither you and I have that competence.

Christ gave the charism to teach, interpret, and to protect the faith to the Pope and Magisterium, not to anyone else. It is to that Pope and Magisterium to which Christ entrusted the keys to the kingdom to...

And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens. (Matthew 16:19)

Anyone who pretends to interpret contrary to the official teachings and interpretations of the Church lacks faith in these words of Jesus and his words that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. We need to trust the official teachings and interpretations of her own documents promulgated by the Magisterium of the Church since Jesus trusts his Church and gave the keys of the kingdom to her. Who are we to do or say any different and remain in communion with the Church?

 

[BroIgnatius]

Protestants are allowed to receive the Eucharist in rare circumstances, as I previously stated. We are probably talking about very rare circumstances, but the slim possibility still exists.

Yes, but this is very rare, and the said Protestant must believe all that Catholics believe about the Eucharist, something even rarer and extraordinary.

Canon Law:

"If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed" (CIC 844 § 4).

 

[concretecamper]

On edit

I understand that Catholic Answers brings up Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire as exceptions. But if that is the answer to the apparent contradiction, that leaves the vast majority (almost all)of non Christians out in the cold.

 

[BroIgnatius]

On edit

I understand that Catholic Answers brings up Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire as exceptions. But if that is the answer to the apparent contradiction, that leaves the vast majority (almost all)of non Christians out in the cold.

There is no contradiction, just a fuller and more mature understanding of the dogma.

Non-Christians are not left out in the cold. Read the Catechism as it deals with all this. I have already posted this, but I will post it again:

The Catechism gives the answer:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? (Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21; L 3,1169; De unit. L 4,509-536.) Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.)​

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.)

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men." (338 AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.)

And again:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent." (131 RP 17 § 12.)

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."(132 Mk 10:19.) The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart (Cf. Mk 3:5-6; Lk 16:19-31.) do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

[Basil the Great]

The Baptism by Blood and Baptism by Desire exceptions would appear in this age to apply to non-Christians only. I believe that said exceptions were originally applied by some, by no means all, Early Church Fathers regarding Christian candidates who had not yet been baptized and confirmed.

 

[Rhamiel]

One could argue that the church is the safest way to heaven whereby protestants are facing uncertainty.

It is ultimately the grace of God that saves and he's free to save whoever he wishes.

To me personally it makes no sense that people who've loved and served Christ their entire life on earth should be left for Satan and his angels just because they failed to find the church.
But this is my pov.

but did they serve Christ if they did not inter the Church that He founded to save all humanity?

what did Saint Peter say about following false teachers?

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

it seems that the results of following false teachers is not just uncertainty, but rather destruction

if someone suffers from invincible ignorance that they have no power to overcome, then God might show mercy to them
but if they are just too lazy to find His Church then can we really say that they spent their lives serving Christ?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

John 10:16 seems to imply differently or at least Christ says it explicitly that he has more than one fold.

 

[MikeK]

On edit

I understand that Catholic Answers brings up Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire as exceptions. But if that is the answer to the apparent contradiction, that leaves the vast majority (almost all)of non Christians out in the cold.

How have you determined the desire of the vast majority?

 

[concretecamper]

So the Dogma of the Church:

"Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation"

is more maturely interpreted as and applies only to these:

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"


Got it.

 

[concretecamper]

How have you determined the desire of the vast majority?

by your question, evidently you have.

 

[MikeK]

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it"

Exactly. Presumably everyone who knows that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ would be a member of the Church. Those who do not know this to be true will not be tortured for eternity unless they either purposefully or through neglect decided not to join Christ's Church. Many will have heard the claims made by the Catholic Church - those alone don't mean that all who have heard the claims can or will know them to be true. still others will, through no fault of their own, never had heard these claims. God is not a monster looking for souls to torture, creating them only to make them burn for eternity.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Exactly. Presumably everyone who knows that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ would be a member of the Church. Those who do not know this to be true will not be tortured for eternity unless they either purposefully or through neglect decided not to join Christ's Church. Many will have heard the claims made by the Catholic Church - those alone don't mean that all who have heard the claims can or will know them to be true. still others will, through no fault of their own, never had heard these claims. God is not a monster looking for souls to torture, creating them only to make them burn for eternity.

This is interesting Mike and I think you're onto something essential in the understanding of the dogma.

If a person hear the church and her missionaries forward the claim that we're the true church, the one and only church that are required for the salvation of all mankind and he or she fail to believe its so how can they be found guilty of purposely refusing to enter the church if they don't see the picture unblurred ?

It's like you have guitars and comba ya during yah mass and so do we Pentecostals why should I believe you I HAVE TO go to mass to be saved?
Whats the difference except the arrogant claim that all Christian faiths except your is invalid is there between my sect and your church?

This would be a very legitimate question for a protestant to ask and with Novus Ordo it's become much harder to answer properly for Catholic apologists, but I digress.

I agree with you for once Mike that for us to claim our exclusivity isn't necessarily equal to them denying it as if God revealed it to them personally.

John 10:16
it reads loud and clear, there are at least two folds.