Founding Fathers-Christian or not?

[Agrippa]

I see our 'founding fathers' injustices towards blacks and Natives as a part of their arrogant belief system that whites were God's chosen and anyone not white as inferior and the devils's spawn. Like it or not, that was what they believed, thinking white brains were bigger than black, Indian, etc.

I'd advice you to read the link I posted to Thomas Jefferson's work 'On Slavery'. Many parts of it are racist and it reveals racist thinking. One example of this is his minimization of the acheivements of Phyllis Wheatley. But that is not entirely the case. Jefferson believes he has scientific reasoning behind the superiority of white over blacks. He does not say God made whites to rule over blacks. This was a rationalist interpretation, not a religious one. It was incorrect, but the germs were laid for the study of the subject rationally and to come to the rational conclusion that slavery was wrong.

I feel like that there's still that attitude today, but in different forms, such as the attitude that blacks and indians should just 'get over it' (about the injustices of the past) and forgive. Well, Yes, we are to forgive, but forgiveness does not mean having to allow ourselves put in a situation of abuse again. We need to address and educate naive christian whites who think our 'founding fathers' were Godly or special or that Indians were all bloodthirsty savages.

Actually, I think the schools have gone too far in the other direction, at least here in New England. We heard about the numerous atrocities committed by settlers, but nothing about the brutal raids on homesteaders. It doesn't absolve the settlers of their guilt, but it is the correct history, not the revisionist position diluted by political objectives.

 

[praying]

I was making a general statement. We Christians should put our faith and trust in none other than our Heavenly Father instead of looking to man. Nonetheless, I do recognize our nation's founders as great achievers and highly intelligent men with a vision for the future. How many of us could have achieved such greatness?

We also mustn't lose sight of the fact that it was America that brought about the abolition of slavery, which was an abomination from the very beginning. America knows right from wrong; we just don't always do it.

I do put all my faith and trust in Lord, but that is not the issue. I also recognize the founders for great political thinkers, that does not mean that they were moral men or even close.

I am not sure what you mean when you say it was America that brought about the abolition of slavery, slavery ended in America yes but slavery was abolished elsewhere in the world long before America did it.

In the 1858 senatorial race, Lincoln ran against incumbent Illinois Senator Stephen A. Douglas. In their first debate, Douglas said that he was "opposed to Negro citizenship in any and every form." This statement was met by cheers. He then said:

"I believe this government was made on the white basis. I believe it was made by white men, for the benefit of white men and their posterity forever, and I am in favor of confining citizenship to white men, men of European birth and descent, instead of conferring it upon Negroes, Indians, and other inferior races."


"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races...I, as much as any man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

From Lincoln's second debate with Stephen Douglas, on August 27, 1858.

From his presidential inaugural address in 1861

"that by the accession of a Republican Administration their property and their peace and personal security are to be endangered. There has never been any reasonable cause for such apprehension. Indeed, the most ample evidence to the contrary has all the while existed and been open to their inspection. It is found in nearly all the published speeches of him who now addresses you. I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that -

I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. "


Lincoln freed the slaves not because he felt morally bound to do that but because it suited the situation.

 

[praying]

I wouldn't use Jefferson as an example of a kind owner. He had several children by his female slaves...

The idea of a slave owner being kind is quite simply an oxymoron.

The two do not coexist.

You can not own a human being and no matter how could you treat them be considered kind IMO.

 

[Word of Peace]

I see our 'founding fathers' injustices towards blacks and Natives as a part of their arrogant belief system that whites were God's chosen and anyone not white as inferior and the devils's spawn.

Some did, some didn't. Jefferson was one who didn't AFAICT based on his writings and what he did as president.

Well, Yes, we are to forgive, but forgiveness does not mean having to allow ourselves put in a situation of abuse again.

That's an important thing to understand - we must freely forgive others' sins against us, but we are not obligated to put ourselves back in a position where we would be hurt again - there's a big difference between the two.

We need to address and educate naive christian whites who think our 'founding fathers' were Godly or special...

I think many of them (but not all) were special, but we must not brush over their wrongdoing and treat them as saints. As for being Godly, I'd go on a case-by-case basis, as some probably were, but most weren't. I really don't like what I've seen in 'heros' like Patrick Henry and even Ben Franklin, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there were some righteous people among the founding fathers.

 

[/\/eO]

I do put all my faith and trust in Lord, but that is not the issue. I also recognize the founders for great political thinkers, that does not mean that they were moral men or even close.

Yes they were. Moral men can also be slave owners. Archippus and Theophilus were both slave owners and honorable men (They are also our brothers in Christ). I would eat dinner with both and be seen in public with them. Many Blacks are going to be shocked when they get to Heaven and meet up with a bunch of whites who were slave owners. You have a secular perspective of what is "honorable". Only thing that matters to the Father is is that man covered in the Blood of the Lamb?

I am not sure what you mean when you say it was America that brought about the abolition of slavery, slavery ended in America yes but slavery was abolished elsewhere in the world long before America did it.

I'm with you on this one.

In the 1858 senatorial race, Lincoln ran against incumbent Illinois Senator Stephen A. Douglas. In their first debate, Douglas said that he was "opposed to Negro citizenship in any and every form." This statement was met by cheers. He then said:

"I believe this government was made on the white basis. I believe it was made by white men, for the benefit of white men and their posterity forever, and I am in favor of confining citizenship to white men, men of European birth and descent, instead of conferring it upon Negroes, Indians, and other inferior races."


"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races...I, as much as any man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

From Lincoln's second debate with Stephen Douglas, on August 27, 1858.

From his presidential inaugural address in 1861

"that by the accession of a Republican Administration their property and their peace and personal security are to be endangered. There has never been any reasonable cause for such apprehension. Indeed, the most ample evidence to the contrary has all the while existed and been open to their inspection. It is found in nearly all the published speeches of him who now addresses you. I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that -

I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. "


Lincoln freed the slaves not because he felt morally bound to do that but because it suited the situation.

Yes you are correct. But Lincolin was still an honorable man and has been recieved by our Father.

All of these people are products of their time. When Constantine "offically" converted to Christianity all of the Roman Empire did not grind to a halt their paganism and formally practice Christianity. In the same vein slavery, which is a foul sin like any other, was going to be abolished when it's time came. God works in His own time and it took the Jews 400 years to have Moses lead them out. In America blacks were slaves for 150 or so years, and God answered them, specifically in the Bill of Rights/Constitution which pointed so clearly to the injustice of slavery "All men were created equal by their Creator" that the institution was doomed to fail. The sinful consequences that occured were countless men in the North/South died as a wage of punishment to this country for the approving of slavery.

Stating that the Founding Fathers were not moral men is simply not true.

 

[praying]

Yes they were. Moral men can also be slave owners. Archippus and Theophilus were both slave owners and honorable men (They are also our brothers in Christ). I would eat dinner with both and be seen in public with them. Many Blacks are going to be shocked when they get to Heaven and meet up with a bunch of whites who were slave owners. You have a secular perspective of what is "honorable". Only thing that matters to the Father is is that man covered in the Blood of the Lamb?

They were not moral men. Period.

Warning to Rich Oppressors

1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[1] 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Yes you are correct. But Lincolin was still an honorable man and has been recieved by our Father.

How do you know this?

 

[/\/eO]

They were not moral men. Period.

They were, on the whole, wonderful and honorable men. Products of their time, and many believed that Jesus was Lord and are in the Body of Christ forever. People need to get over the fact that God forgave those who fell upon the Cross and loves them as He did King David; who was a murderer. God alone decides who He will and will not forgive.

Warning to Rich Oppressors

1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[1] 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Doesn't apply to slaves. Slaves don't enter into a contract for wages. Workers do that. Slaves wait on their master and if they are found doing their job they can recline at their master's table, if not and they are found drunk and lazy they will find themselves whipped to pieces (Christ's words).

How do you know this?

Read the letters of Lincoln that man reflected more of influence of the Gospel in his life than any president alive.

To men who think for themselves, no matter what may have been their previous religious belief, there not unfrequently comes a period of doubting. Such a period came to Abraham Lincoln. He had not forgotten his mother's teachings. He could repeat much of the Bible, but he was not moved by emotional appeals. When his first love Ann Rutledge died, and his soul was wrung with grief, no one had talked to him of divine love and eternal goodness. So far as he could see, his own life had been a failure. Hopes had not been realized, desires not gratified. He had accomplished nothing.

He is out in the desert - hungry, thirsty, weary, depressed in spirit - no star to guide him. But as angels of God came to the carpenter's Son of Nazareth, so came Joshua Speed and Lucy Gilman Speed to him.

He finds himself in a hospitable home. Flowers are blooming around it; balmy breezes sweep through the halls. He breathes an atmosphere of restful peace. A saintly woman sits by his side, opens the New Testament, and reads the words of One who Himself had been in the wilderness. She talks of God as a father, Jesus Christ as a Brother. New truths dawn upon him, and the Bible becomes a different book from what it has been in the past. Little does Lucy Gilman Speed know that God has crowned her with glory and honor, to be a ministering spirit in leading a bewildered wanderer out of the desert of despair and unbelief, that he may do great things for his fellow-men. Weeks go by, the gloom and anguish disappear. The period of doubt has gone, never to return. From that hour the Bible is to be his rule of life and duty.

-Charles Coffin, Abraham Lincoln (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1893)
Charles Coffin was a Civil War correspondent and author of eight books on history.

 

[cherokeehippie]

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[SUNDAE]

They were, on the whole, wonderful and honorable men. Products of their time, and many believed that Jesus was Lord and are in the Body of Christ forever. .

But you don't know this for sure!!!!

People need to get over the fact that God forgave those who fell upon the Cross and loves them as He did King David; who was a murderer. God alone decides who He will and will not forgive.

Get over it?? Does that mean forgetting the past? Does that mean allowing certain white supremacy groups to say it never happened??

 

[Hydra009]

I agree Sundae, it's not a good idea for someone to claim things that he/she cannot reasonably support.

 

[praying]

They were, on the whole, wonderful and honorable men. Products of their time, and many believed that Jesus was Lord and are in the Body of Christ forever. People need to get over the fact that God forgave those who fell upon the Cross and loves them as He did King David; who was a murderer. God alone decides who He will and will not forgive.

How do you know how wonderful these men were, I venture if you were owned by one your family sold and separated you would nto think they so wonderful. I have no problem with God forgiving, I am not sure they are forgiven.

Doesn't apply to slaves. Slaves don't enter into a contract for wages. Workers do that. Slaves wait on their master and if they are found doing their job they can recline at their master's table, if not and they are found drunk and lazy they will find themselves whipped to pieces (Christ's words).

Not in America a slave no matter what was not eating at his so called master's table. I can say I have areal rpoblem with you using the Bible to justify slavery. That is why slavery began in the Americas through Biblical justification. Slavery is/was immoral in all times Biblical through now.

Read the letters of Lincoln that man reflected more of influence of the Gospel in his life than any president alive.

-Charles Coffin, Abraham Lincoln (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1893)
Charles Coffin was a Civil War correspondent and author of eight books on history.

I woul dhave to read more on Lincoln regardinf his faith to comment.

 

[reverend B]

Good guys, bad guys, saved or not. None of this is what is important about any of them. These are questions for God to ultimately answer. I have my opinions, but so what. The thing that matters is the thing they left behind that protects all of us, Christian, Jew, Hindu or Muslim, from persecution for our faith. The documents that eventually made slavery an oxy-moron, though men fought to justify it for a century, is all that matters about them now. Perhaps their work became their atonement. I have full confidence that God will make the right decision.