Founding Fathers-Christian or not?

[SUNDAE]

Many in the Christian community are quite proud of the 'fact' that the founding fathers are assumed to be christian.

They tout their writings, speeches and prayer when referring to this alleged faith.

The truth is, may of them had slaves, and those who didn't chose political gain over freedom for ALL Americans. How is that reconciled? Do you find it inconsequencial?

I've heard people say that slavery was not considered to be the evil it is today. I don't buy that because there were many in the land who were working for it's abolition. The Quakers were one such group,

I'd like some opinions please

 

[praying]

Many in the Christian community are quite proud of the 'fact' that the founding fathers are assumed to be christian.

They tout their writings, speeches and prayer when referring to this alleged faith.

The truth is, may of them had slaves, and those who didn't chose political gain over freedom for ALL Americans. How is that reconciled? Do you find it inconsequencial?

I've heard people say that slavery was not considered to be the evil it is today. I don't buy that because there were many in the land who were working for it's abolition. The Quakers were one such group,

I'd like some opinions please

NOT



They have a laundry list of immoral acts in fact by today's standards they were genocidal towards the Indians and Africans

 

[cherokeehippie]

I'm sooo glad there are others that feel the same way as I do about this subject! Lara

 

[tulc]

Truthfully most were Deist not Christian in the sense most people in America think Christian. So they would be slave owning (some), wig wearing, revolutionary heretics.
tulc(who loves his country and the truth)

 

[SUNDAE]

Thanks guys, I posted the same question on another forum-Christianity,com and received denials and a wall of silence. I thought it was because I was knocking their heroes.

 

[praying]

Thanks guys, I posted the same question on another forum-Christianity,com and received denials and a wall of silence. I thought it was because I was knocking their heroes.

Welcome to CF Sundae!!

Hey Tulc I am learning.

 

[southron]

The founding fathers of these United States were Christian by faith no dought. However just as we have our faults and we are sure not perfect by any means then so were they not perfect only human beings just as us. They even with those faults built the greatest nation on earth all with God's help.

God Bless America,
Southron

 

[SUNDAE]

The founding fathers of these United States were Christian by faith no dought. However just as we have our faults and we are sure not perfect by any means then so were they not perfect only human beings just as us. They even with those faults built the greatest nation on earth all with God's help.

God Bless America,
Southron

Thanks for the welcome mhatten!

Southron: God built the nation in spite of them! Remember Alexander the Great?

Hitler also claimed to be Christian, anyone can make that claim-it don't make it so.

Yes America may be great, now, but don't get too complacent-the fall is sure to come.

 

[southron]

Thanks for the welcome mhatten!

Southron: God built the nation in spite of them! Remember Alexander the Great?

Hitler also claimed to be Christian, anyone can make that claim-it don't make it so.

Yes America may be great, now, but don't get too complacent-the fall is sure to come.

Sundae,
God gets his way no matter what. Yes I remember Alexander the great.

Yes Hitler claimed that and so do many others and right on it sure don't make it so.

And I sure do know what you mean America is going to fall and we Christians better be ready for it if we are still around to see it.

I agree on 2 and 3 somewhat on 1. Nice exchanging lines with ya.

God Save and Restore America,
Southron

 

[praying]

The founding fathers of these United States were Christian by faith no dought. However just as we have our faults and we are sure not perfect by any means then so were they not perfect only human beings just as us. They even with those faults built the greatest nation on earth all with God's help.

God Bless America,
Southron

I agree they developed the documents to build one of the strongest government foundations ever established ,100%.

I do not however think you can just write away the atrocities by which they lived. They were far to vast and deep for them to be held up as Christians we would like to emulate.

They were brilliant men with forward thinking ideas on government but I think that when old Tom gets up and Jesus says so Tom how is Sally and her children how do you think he will answer?

 

[tulc]

Hey Tulc I am learning.

Well done grasshopper! You must now learn to levitate like this one:
tulc(thinking about the sound of one hand clapping)

 

[freespirit2001]

FOUNDING FATHERS: CHRISTIAN OR NOT (*?*)

" Its not the function of our government to keep the citizens from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error." US Supreme Court Justice, Robert Jackson (1950)

" When we consider the founders of our nation---Jefferson, Washington, Samuel and John Adams, Madison and Monroe, Benjamin Franklin, Tom Paine and many others---we have a list of at least ten and maybe even dozens of great political leaders. They were well-educated. Products of the European Enlightenment, they were students of history. They knew human infallibility and weakness and corruptibility. They were fluent in the English language. They wrote their own speeches. They were realistic and practical, and at the same time motivated by high principles. They were not checking pollsters on what they think people need this week. They knew what to think. They were comfortable with long-term thinking, planning even further ahead than the next election. They were self-sufficient, not requiring careers as politicians or lobbyists to make a living. They were able to bring out the best in us. They were interested in and, at least two of them, fluent in science. They attempted to set a course for the United States into the far future---not so much as establsihing laws as by setting limits on what kinds of laws could be passed."

" Jefferson was a student of history---not just the compliant and safe history that praises our own time or country or ethnic group, but the real history of real humans, our weaknesses as well as our strengths. History taught him that the rich and the powerful will steal and oppress if given half a chance. He described the governments of Europe, which he saw first hand as an American ambassador to france. Under the pretense of government, he said, they divided their nations into two classes: wolves and sheep. Jefferson taught that every government degenerates when it is left to the rulers alone, because rulers---by the very act of ruling---misuse the public trust. The people themselves, he said, are the only prudent repository of power.

But he did worry that the people---are easily misled---an argument that goes back to Aristotle and Thucydides. So he advocated safeguards, insurance policies. One was the constitutional separation of powers; accordingly, various groups, some pursuing their own selfish interests, balance one another, preventing any one of them from running away with the country: the executive, legislative and the judicial branches; the House and the Senate; the States and the Federal Government. He also stressed, pasionately and repeatedly, that it was essential for the people to understand the risks and benefits of government, to educate themselves, and to involve themselves in the political process. Without that, he said, the wolves will take over:

Jefferson's "Notes on Virginia"
:
"In every government on earth is some trace of human weakness, some germ of corruption and degeneracy, which cunning will discover and wickedness insensibly open, cultivate and improve. Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves therfore are its only safe depositaries. And to render even themsafe, their minds must be improved...."*

Our Founding Fathers appear to be more of men of great intelligence and insight with well thought out long-term planning strategies for the best approaches to government by the people...The Founding Fathers encouraged religious freedom in the way they set up the Constitution and the Bill of Rights though they weren't all religious christian people...some had slaves and wigs and mistresses...but they were real people.



" "The Demon-Haunted World: Real Patriots Ask Questions" p.426-428, Carl Sagan

 

[crazyfingers]

The founding fathers of these United States were Christian by faith no dought. However just as we have our faults and we are sure not perfect by any means then so were they not perfect only human beings just as us. They even with those faults built the greatest nation on earth all with God's help.

God Bless America,
Southron

Most were christian. Several of the most influential were not.

 

[Dale]

*
SUNDAE:
<< Hitler also claimed to be Christian, anyone can make that claim-it don't make it so.
>>

Southron:
<< Yes Hitler claimed that and so do many others and right on it sure don't make it so. >>

*
On the contrary, Adolf Hitler was not a Christian and did not claim to be at the time of WWII.

*
From Walter C. Langer's authoritative book The Mind of Adolf Hitler:
"As a matter of fact, Hitler had very little admiration for Christ the Crucified. Although he was brought up a Catholic and received communion during the war [WW I ], he severed his connection with the Church directly afterward." --p. 44

*
"And to Rauschling he once referred to 'the Jewish Christ-creed with its effiminate, pity-ethics.''" --same source, p. 44
*

 

[SUNDAE]

Dale, you're right, Hitler was an EXTREME example of those who claim Christianity but don't live as though led by the Spirit of God.

There's no doubt, though, that the founders fall into that catogory!

No one is denying that these men were great statesment and politians, and that God raised them up for such a time as that.

We should honour them for their place in the founding of the nation (just as the Brits should honour Winston Churchill), and NOT because we believe they were Christians.

All that talk about "liberty or death," and when the day was over, home they went to their enslaved humanity.

 

[Agrippa]

The Founding Fathers were not perfect. They were not moral men by the standards of today. The actions taken against Native Americans, especially the Iroqoius, were a form of ethnic cleansing. The raids made by the Iroqoius against white settlers in no way justifies such an atrocity. Many Founding Fathers had slaves, but many of them also fought for emancipation.

Read, for example, Thomas Jefferson On Slavery. You will see in the piece that Jefferson held incorrect views on the equality of blacks and whites. Part of it is due to ignorance on his part (science having improved greatly since then), but part of it is almost a willful ignorance based on bigotry. His poor analysis of Phillis Wheatley is one example. Jefferson, however, does express his support for emancipation. His refusal to call for immediate emancipation can be explained by his perception of the differences of the two groups. And while some of that perception is inexcusable, some of it is based on ignorance and the more primitive state of science.

Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest. - But it is impossible to be temperate and to pursue this subject through the various considerations of policy, of morals, of history natural and civil. We must be contented to hope they will force their way into every one's mind. I think a change already perceptible, since the origin of the present revolution. The spirit of the master is abating, that of the slave rising from the dust, his condition mollifying, the way I hope preparing, under the auspices of heaven, for a total emancipation, and that this is disposed, in the order of events, to be with the consent of the masters, rather than by their extirpation.

This article is also an interesting read. From reading it, I imagine the author's political opinions are too conservative for my tastes. To the best of my knowledge, however, the historical information is accurate.

While the Founding Fathers held many ideas that are morally wrong, they were better than the vast majority of people living in that day and age. That is why they should be celebrated (besides their actions in founding the US of course). Remember their faults but also remember the manner in which they broke the societal mindset.

 

[SUNDAE]

From 1755 to 1776, the Society became the first organization in history to ban slaveholding, and Quakers created abolition societies to promote emancipation. In the next century, Quakers populated the abolitionist movement in numbers far exceeding their proportion of all Americans. Some labored for such gradual solutions as the colonization of freedmen, while more conspicuous Quaker abolitionists espoused immediate emancipation. The latter were critically important to organizations like the American Anti-Slavery Society, the Philadelphia Anti-Slavery Society, and the Female Antislavery Society, and to active resistance such as the "underground railway" in Pennsylvania and the Midwest. Following the example of eighteenth-century abolitionist Anthony Benezet, Friends showed an interest in the education and social progress of blacks. During Reconstruction, American and English Quakers raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for freedmen's relief and established scores of schools for freedmen.

When it comes to unregenerate man,there are some who do more social good than others. But the person who is born from above should live by the Spirit of God and follow what is written in Scriptures.

You cannot excuse these men by saying things were different then. God does not change, but we know the Bible has been twisted to suit our selfish desires.

As noted in the quote above there WERE some in that generation who were concerned about the plight of the slaves. The men placed in the best position to do something about it--the men in government-though claiming to be Christians, thought it more politically and financially expedient to maintain the status quo. These are not men Christians should emulate.

 

[praying]

The Founding Fathers were not perfect. They were not moral men by the standards of today. The actions taken against Native Americans, especially the Iroqoius, were a form of ethnic cleansing. The raids made by the Iroqoius against white settlers in no way justifies such an atrocity. Many Founding Fathers had slaves, but many of them also fought for emancipation.

Read, for example, Thomas Jefferson On Slavery. You will see in the piece that Jefferson held incorrect views on the equality of blacks and whites. Part of it is due to ignorance on his part (science having improved greatly since then), but part of it is almost a willful ignorance based on bigotry. His poor analysis of Phillis Wheatley is one example. Jefferson, however, does express his support for emancipation. His refusal to call for immediate emancipation can be explained by his perception of the differences of the two groups. And while some of that perception is inexcusable, some of it is based on ignorance and the more primitive state of science.



This article is also an interesting read. From reading it, I imagine the author's political opinions are too conservative for my tastes. To the best of my knowledge, however, the historical information is accurate.

While the Founding Fathers held many ideas that are morally wrong, they were better than the vast majority of people living in that day and age. That is why they should be celebrated (besides their actions in founding the US of course). Remember their faults but also remember the manner in which they broke the societal mindset.

I have no problem celebrating them for the great political thinkers they were. I do have a problem celebrating their Christianity or people using that to say how this country was founded. Slavery aside TJ was an adulterer, and that has been wrong since the dawn of time.

 

[Agrippa]

I have no problem celebrating them for the great political thinkers they were. I do have a problem celebrating their Christianity or people using that to say how this country was founded. Slavery aside TJ was an adulterer, and that has been wrong since the dawn of time.

I'm not saying they were perfect men. I'm not saying that this nation was founded as a Christian one either. I'm saying not only were they good political leaders, in some ways, they were better 'morally' than most of the rest of the world at that time. TJ was a racist and had slaves, but he did support eventual emancipation. Part of the reason why he did not support immediate emancipation was because he believed blacks were inferior. In 'On Slavery', Jefferson discusses scientific reasons why blacks are inferior to whites. Modern science would reveals that hypothesis to be incorrect. If he had the benefit of a modern education, with all the knowledge that says that's incorrect, that whites and blacks are the same except for the color of our skin, I believe he would have been an ardent abolitionist. We shouldn't emulate this men by supporting slavery, we should emulate and revere them for being willing to change society and consider the world in a new light.

Finally, if committing a sin prevents one from being a Christian, then no Christian has ever existed yet.

 

[praying]

I'm not saying they were perfect men. I'm not saying that this nation was founded as a Christian one either. I'm saying not only were they good political leaders, in some ways, they were better 'morally' than most of the rest of the world at that time. TJ was a racist and had slaves, but he did support eventual emancipation. Part of the reason why he did not support immediate emancipation was because he believed blacks were inferior. In 'On Slavery', Jefferson discusses scientific reasons why blacks are inferior to whites. Modern science would reveals that hypothesis to be incorrect. If he had the benefit of a modern education, with all the knowledge that says that's incorrect, that whites and blacks are the same except for the color of our skin, I believe he would have been an ardent abolitionist. We shouldn't emulate this men by supporting slavery, we should emulate and revere them for being willing to change society and consider the world in a new light.

Finally, if committing a sin prevents one from being a Christian, then no Christian has ever existed yet.

No do not misunderstand me I am not saying they are not Christian, albeit a strange brand of Christianity but, I am saying these are not the men to hold up as beacons of Christian light.

Hold them up as the great political thinkers that they were, who had the foresight to develop the foundation for a truly great form of government, and that is where I think the proverbial buck stops.