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Fossils on mountains and the hydroplate theory

PeterDona

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OK, the previous thread took off in a discussion of whether or not the flood ever happened, which seems to belong in another forum. And only 20-30% real scientific discussion. So, let us try to keep the discussion more scientific this time.

I would like a discussion of the phenomenon of fossils on top of Mount Everest, and the hydroplate theory that can apparently explain it. here is a threadstarter with some links:

According to geological Magazine 1967 there were found crinoid fossils on top of Mount Everest. Where did they come from? Conventional plate tectonic geology seems to insufficient to explain how those fossils got there, but then how did they get there?
link 1: http://mathisencorollary.blogspot.dk/2012/03/crinoids-on-mount-everest.html
link 2: http://mathisencorollary.blogspot.dk/2011/04/hydroplate-theory-of-dr-walt-brown.html (the hydroplate theory)

crinoid.jpg
 
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Larniavc

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The fatal flaw with the hydroplate theory is all the water required for the 'fountains of the deep' underground is in the form of pressurised hydroxide ions.

I dread to think of the heat generated when God uncorked it all but I'm guessing the planet would have been scorched and the oceans evaporated.
 
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PeterDona

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The fatal floor with the hydroplate theory is all the water required for the 'fountains of the deep' underground is in the form of pressurised hydroxide ions.

I dread to think of the heat generated when God uncorked it all but I'm guessing the planet would have been scorched and the oceans evaporated.
I do not think it needs to be that alkaline. I heard of underwater basins of water, and here is a source on water oceans in earths crust: http://www.natureworldnews.com/arti...rwater-ocean-trapped-beneath-earths-crust.htm

I actually believe that God created the earth with a lot of freshwater oceans hidden in the crust. Here is a source on some freshwater basins under the ocean floor: http://www.gizmag.com/freshwater-reserves-under-sea/30072/

I do believe that the "fountains of the deep" is a term to describe how some of these hidden basins burst open and shot their water up in the air. How high up? no clue.... What started the reaction? no clue ....
 
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Larniavc

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I do not think it needs to be that alkaline. I heard of underwater basins of water, and here is a source on water oceans in earths crust: http://www.natureworldnews.com/arti...rwater-ocean-trapped-beneath-earths-crust.htm

I actually believe that God created the earth with a lot of freshwater oceans hidden in the crust. Here is a source on some freshwater basins under the ocean floor: http://www.gizmag.com/freshwater-reserves-under-sea/30072/

I do believe that the "fountains of the deep" is a term to describe how some of these hidden basins burst open and shot their water up in the air. How high up? no clue.... What started the reaction? no clue ....

If the fountains of the deep were liquid water how much energy do you think was released to flood the entire planet? The planet would be boiled alive.
 
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PeterDona

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If the fountains of the deep were liquid water how much energy do you think was released to flood the entire planet? The planet would be boiled alive.
Why do you believe that the water would have to be boiling hot? Can you link to some info?
 
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Larniavc

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Why do you believe that the water would have to be boiling hot? Can you link to some info?

Suppose you placed the water under 10 km of crust, the pressure of the water would be 10 x 105 * 980 * 2.65 = 2.58 x 109 dynes= 2562 atmospheres of pressure.

The temperature gradient is 1 deg C for every 30 m so there is a 166 deg. C increase in temperature as we go deeper. 330 + 30 deg C (the surface temperature) =360 deg. C. (see below for justification of the temperature. For a layer of cave water 2 km thick all around the earth would contain 1 x 1024 cubic centimeters of water. At 360 deg C, the high temperature water would contain 3.3 x 1026 calories. (1 calorie per degree rise (330 degree rise)). The minute the pressure is released the water will turn to steam and you will cook the earth. Dividing the calories by the surface area of the earth shows that heat /cm2 = 3.3 x 1026 Calories/5.09 x 1018 square centimeters = 6.4 x 107 Cal/cm2.

This energy represents 1 year's worth of sunshine on a square centimeter at the equator. (The sun gives each square centimeter 2 calories per square centimeter per second) I don't think Noah could survive this. This enough energy to raise water to 64 million degrees C (assuming a specific heat of 1 cal/degree. Even if you use the 121 deg C value that Brown wants to use, this represents over 4 month's of solar radiation per square centimeter. No one could survive this event.

Article

All the best.
 
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The Cadet

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According to geological Magazine 1967 there were found crinoid fossils on top of Mount Everest. Where did they come from? Conventional plate tectonic geology seems to insufficient to explain how those fossils got there

maxresdefault.jpg


I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. The area currently taken up by the himalayas was previously oceanic before the Indian plate collided with it, causing the massive uplift we see today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Plate#Plate_movements

Plate tectonics is absolutely sufficient to explain the presence of marine fossils at high altitudes. This is the modern consensus view among geologists, and even your own links seem to explain the hypothesis. Your first link (quite ironically) tries to hand-wave this away as mere hand-waving. Indeed, your links are both full of complete woo. If I may make a suggestion: don't get your information from blogs which claim to have overthrown massively successful scientific theories yet which have not published anything in peer review.
 
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AV1611VET

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I would like a discussion of the phenomenon of fossils on top of Mount Everest, and the hydroplate theory that can apparently explain it. here is a threadstarter with some links:

According to geological Magazine 1967 there were found crinoid fossils on top of Mount Everest. Where did they come from? Conventional plate tectonic geology seems to insufficient to explain how those fossils got there, but then how did they get there?
I don't understand what you're asking for.

Didn't the article explain where they came from?

If so, why are you asking us?

If the article did explain it, but you found the explanation "too insufficient to explain how they got there," then wouldn't that be a strong hint that God had something to do with it?

In addition, first you ask, "Where did they come from?"

Then you change it to, "How did they get there?"

My guess is that they came from God, and they got there like anything else got there that was found around them.
 
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PeterDona

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Plate#Plate_movements

Plate tectonics is absolutely sufficient to explain the presence of marine fossils at high altitudes. This is the modern consensus view among geologists, and even your own links seem to explain the hypothesis. Your first link (quite ironically) tries to hand-wave this away as mere hand-waving. Indeed, your links are both full of complete woo. If I may make a suggestion: don't get your information from blogs which claim to have overthrown massively successful scientific theories yet which have not published anything in peer review.
The problem with your theory, as also stated in the links that I provided, is that it will for sure not explain how those fossils got there.
1) if the crinoids died due to the land lifting, why were they not broken down in the normal decay processes? They would not become frozen before the land lifted to about 3km, which would take extremely long time according to the speed of the indian plate discussed in your wikipedia article.
I hope you see this problem, because that is the major argument made in the article. Remember, fossilization must be a quick event.
2) my 3rd article also note another problem with the plate slow movement theory, namely that ancient temples have a very precise northward orientation, which would be somewhat hard to explain, if the plates had really been moving those inches for all those thousands of years. So, while there may be some truth to plate tectonics, there is also a lot of assumptions, some of these cannot be reconciled with the evidence quoted in said article.
 
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PeterDona

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peer review.
To make one comment on the scientific process: since the creation scientific view is not the standard accepted view, it has a hard time getting through a peer review. However, a lot of loose talk and vague stuff does get through, provided it is not in contradiction with standard established understanding. (in my experience)

It was my very first lesson in university, that the lecturer put some terms on the screen, in order to teach us to see the difference between proven facts and believed facts. And one of the phrases was "well established". Today, many years later, as I learned about the creation scientific framework, I certainly know a case, where you need to think sharp and see what is theory and what is proof. So today, it is useful to me, what I learned in my very first university lecture. A fact that is "established" or even "well established", means, noone ever proved that fact, so it is not a fact, it is a belief.
 
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dad

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OK, the previous thread took off in a discussion of whether or not the flood ever happened, which seems to belong in another forum. And only 20-30% real scientific discussion. So, let us try to keep the discussion more scientific this time.

I would like a discussion of the phenomenon of fossils on top of Mount Everest, and the hydroplate theory that can apparently explain it. here is a threadstarter with some links:

According to geological Magazine 1967 there were found crinoid fossils on top of Mount Everest. Where did they come from? Conventional plate tectonic geology seems to insufficient to explain how those fossils got there, but then how did they get there?
link 1: http://mathisencorollary.blogspot.dk/2012/03/crinoids-on-mount-everest.html
link 2: http://mathisencorollary.blogspot.dk/2011/04/hydroplate-theory-of-dr-walt-brown.html (the hydroplate theory)

I would suspect that Everest was rapidly uplifted.
 
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Herman Hedning

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1) if the crinoids died due to the land lifting, why were they not broken down in the normal decay processes? They would not become frozen before the land lifted to about 3km, which would take extremely long time according to the speed of the indian plate discussed in your wikipedia article.
Huh? I'm probably not reading this right, but it looks like you are saying the crinoids perished because of land lift. They of course fossilized in the sea, under water, and the sea floor with the fossils was later uplifted to form mountains. And what's with "becoming frozen"? Fossils are mineral, right? Not frozen actual organisms.
 
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The Cadet

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The problem with your theory, as also stated in the links that I provided, is that it will for sure not explain how those fossils got there.
1) if the crinoids died due to the land lifting, why were they not broken down in the normal decay processes? They would not become frozen before the land lifted to about 3km, which would take extremely long time according to the speed of the indian plate discussed in your wikipedia article.

The crinoids did not die as a result of the land lifting. They died long before the land lifted, and were fossilized underwater.

2) my 3rd article also note another problem with the plate slow movement theory, namely that ancient temples have a very precise northward orientation, which would be somewhat hard to explain, if the plates had really been moving those inches for all those thousands of years.

Yes, I saw that argument, and my immediate thought was, "Wow, what a bad argument". We can measure plate tectonics through numerous independently verifiable concordant methods, including direct GPS satellite measurement. The fact that he thinks certain ancient structures still point true north (and doesn't provide any evidence pointing out which monuments, or how they should have changed direction, he merely appeals to the concept many people have almost certainly heard of - a concept borrowed wholesale from new-age woomongers) does nothing to deflate this. Basically, the premise for the argument is an assertion that he completely fails to back up, and one I personally find extremely hard to take seriously.

To make one comment on the scientific process: since the creation scientific view is not the standard accepted view, it has a hard time getting through a peer review. However, a lot of loose talk and vague stuff does get through, provided it is not in contradiction with standard established understanding. (in my experience)

Yes, creation "science" does have a hard time getting through. Just like, to take an obvious parallel, geocentrism. It's wrong, we know it's wrong, we've known it's been wrong for a hundred years now. This gives it a bit of an uphill battle in the literature. But if you want to posit a claim alternate to the mainstream, nobody will stop you. You just have to have your evidence in order and your methods straight. The Discovery Institute has published dozens of papers. None of them do much to further their position, and most of them went almost entirely ignored by the scientific community, but they're out there.

It was my very first lesson in university, that the lecturer put some terms on the screen, in order to teach us to see the difference between proven facts and believed facts. And one of the phrases was "well established". Today, many years later, as I learned about the creation scientific framework, I certainly know a case, where you need to think sharp and see what is theory and what is proof. So today, it is useful to me, what I learned in my very first university lecture. A fact that is "established" or even "well established", means, noone ever proved that fact, so it is not a fact, it is a belief.

Wat? I'm sorry, but if your university degree was in science, then you should ask for a refund. Science does not deal with "proofs" in any meaningful sense. It builds predictive models of reality which conform to the evidence, and tests those models. You can't get much further than "well-established" due to the problem of inference. I guess you could say "beyond reasonable doubt" (which also applies to the old earth and evolution at this point). I don't think you know what "theory" means in scientific parlance.
 
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Armoured

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According to geological Magazine 1967 there were found crinoid fossils on top of Mount Everest. Where did they come from? Conventional plate tectonic geology seems to insufficient to explain how those fossils got there, but then how did they get there?
Geological uplift answers it just fine. [/thread]
 
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RickG

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To make one comment on the scientific process: since the creation scientific view is not the standard accepted view, it has a hard time getting through a peer review. QUOTE]
They don't even try submitting it because they know it is flawed science. Furthermore, the peer review process requires original data and scholarly excellence. None of that is even presented in the "creation science" literature. The entire hydroplate theory is based ignoring the very basic laws of physics and thermodynamics. Even in its description there are amazing contradictions within which one would think, Walt Brown, an Engineer, would easily recognize.

Why, if I may ask, do you think conventional plate tectonic theory does not explain fossils on mountain tops?
 
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PeterDona

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The crinoids did not die as a result of the land lifting. They died long before the land lifted, and were fossilized underwater.
I did not expect this statement to be made, because to my mind, it just seemed too improbable. When the land lifted, due to slow gradual processes, and we are around equator, those fossils would have to survive many thousand years where they were not in a freezing environment. Well, I guess that sums up the counterarguments. 1 objection, but it seems sustainable.

Yes, I saw that argument, and my immediate thought was, "Wow, what a bad argument". We can measure plate tectonics through numerous independently verifiable concordant methods, including direct GPS satellite measurement. The fact that he thinks certain ancient structures still point true north (and doesn't provide any evidence pointing out which monuments, or how they should have changed direction, he merely appeals to the concept many people have almost certainly heard of - a concept borrowed wholesale from new-age woomongers) does nothing to deflate this. Basically, the premise for the argument is an assertion that he completely fails to back up, and one I personally find extremely hard to take seriously.
I can follow your argumentation here.

Yes, creation "science" does have a hard time getting through. Just like, to take an obvious parallel, geocentrism. It's wrong, we know it's wrong, we've known it's been wrong for a hundred years now. This gives it a bit of an uphill battle in the literature. But if you want to posit a claim alternate to the mainstream, nobody will stop you. You just have to have your evidence in order and your methods straight. The Discovery Institute has published dozens of papers. None of them do much to further their position, and most of them went almost entirely ignored by the scientific community, but they're out there.
You know what? Some times I feel like pulling out the geocentrism story when I talk with evolutionists. Because I feel they hold the position of .... well never mind, but sometimes I feel like that.

A funny memory, was a colleague commenting on the long neck of a swan, and how it got there. I commented that maybe it was because a long neck is beautiful (my colleague was apparently an evolutionist, and me of course creationist). Then he started wondering how beauty would have its position in evolution, and I ... burst the bubble by saying, that I believed that God created the swan with the intention of beauty. My colleague stopped commenting immediately. He looked a bit like it was an unwelcome comment.

Wat? I'm sorry, but if your university degree was in science, then you should ask for a refund. Science does not deal with "proofs" in any meaningful sense. It builds predictive models of reality which conform to the evidence, and tests those models. You can't get much further than "well-established" due to the problem of inference. I guess you could say "beyond reasonable doubt" (which also applies to the old earth and evolution at this point). I don't think you know what "theory" means in scientific parlance.
Arh, it is a matter of how you use the language. If I hear the words "well established" for me it more often refers to something that could certainly do with a scrutiny. But maybe that is due to my scientific training. Actually I agree, that nothing is a proven fact, and to be honest I had a very hard time with the textbooks in university, because they stated some concepts without referring the experiments that had led to those concepts. And that left a person like me hanging. I needed to have a chance of evaluating the evidence myself. So when I finally had the chance to dig into the literature, I did so with great eagerness. To my master thesis I made a 40-page review of the scientific literature dating back the last 40 years. The referee on my report labelled it a "tour de force" through the scientific research.
 
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RickG

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But maybe that is due to my scientific training. Actually I agree, that nothing is a proven fact, and to be honest I had a very hard time with the textbooks in university, because they stated some concepts without referring the experiments that had led to those concepts. And that left a person like me hanging. I needed to have a chance of evaluating the evidence myself. So when I finally had the chance to dig into the literature, I did so with great eagerness.

Curious. May I inquire as to what your "specific" scientific training was and at what University?
 
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The Cadet

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I did not expect this statement to be made, because to my mind, it just seemed too improbable. When the land lifted, due to slow gradual processes, and we are around equator, those fossils would have to survive many thousand years where they were not in a freezing environment.

To my understanding (and Mary Schweitzer's research may make this dead wrong, but not in a way that's relevant to this argument), fossils tend to more often than not be characterized by the way the biological structures were replaced by minerals. What's left is not the lifeform itself, but something resembling a stone cast of it. I'm not sure what freezing temperatures would have to do with it - fossils can bake for decades in the desert sun without decomposing (although they may suffer from erosion damage).
 
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PeterDona

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Curious. May I inquire as to what your "specific" scientific training was and at what University?
Yah,
First I studied for 2½ years at the technical university of Denmark. which is number 149 in the world on some list. Then I made the rest of my education at Roskilde University, which is not even on that list (which made the boss of the Roskilde University reply that those lists are amateur work :) ).
My professor at my thesis was this one: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tove_Atlung
In my thesis I had to develop a new experimental setup - to use a column coated with DnaA protein to "fish" for proteins interacting with it. It had been done with interaction with DNA. You could actually fish the DNA sequences that bound to the protein. But as far as my project went, it did not "succeed" with the protein-protein interactions. I can tell you, I really searched and searched the literature to find a trick that would make the setup work. That would have been a feat, and certainly worth an article in a scientific journal.
 
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toLiJC

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there are angels of satan that age the matter and materialize(create) prehistoric earth layers and fossils/corpses of prehistoric animals in the ground that (actually) never existed, as well as false scriptures as those that were found in nag hammadi egypt, so it is no great thing if they materialize(d) fossils/corpses of animals on many mountains

Blessings
 
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