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Fossilized life found in meteors! Groundbreaking!

Agonaces of Susa

Evolution is not science: legalize creationism.
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Who cares what the vatican thinks of aliens?
I do. And so do a great many others.

The catholic church also accepts evolution, but I guess you're picking and choosing which parts of catholic doctrine you want to believe.
If by evolution you simply mean change then yes, even the most rock-ribbed fundamentalist creationist knows that there has been change over time. So I guess there is no debate and we're all happy then.

If by evolution you mean: natural selection + undirected random mutation = abiogenesis, then only 16% of those brainwashed are still gullible enough to believe it.
 
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rjc34

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If by evolution you mean: natural selection + undirected random mutation = abiogenesis, then only 16% of those brainwashed are still gullible enough to believe it.

How many times do we have to drill it into your thick skull that evolution and abiogenesis are completely different fields of study!

Your little equation there is completely non sequitur and is nonsense. natural selection + undirected random mutation = EVOLUTION.

They believe theistic evolution. IE 'guided' evolution to some, and to others 'seeded' evolution.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

Evolution is not science: legalize creationism.
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Yet another quote from a different era of science.
Max Planck lived in a different era?

In actual fact however, Max Planck lived in the 20th century.

Do you know what era means?

Nobody has ever found a single piece of evidence that doesn't support evolution.
Good one.

According to you evolution is a religion, therefore no possible evidence can contradict it.

Are you really denying atomic theory ... ?
Why would I deny Mosiachal theory?

" ... if one must believe Poseidonius, the ancient dogma about atoms originated with Mochus, a Sidonian, born before the Trojan times. However, let us dismiss things ancient." -- Strabo, geographer, The Geography, Book XVI, 7

"And the like Opinion has been by some of the Antients ascrib'd to the Phoenicians, from whom Thales himself is conceiv'd to have borrow'd it; as probably the Greeks did much of their Theologie, and, as I am apt to think, of their Philosophy too; since the Devising of the Atomical Hypothesis commonly ascrib'd to Lucippus and his Disciple Democritus is by Learned Men attributed to one Moschus a Phoenician. And possibly the Opinion is yet antienter than so; For 'tis known that the Phoenicians borrow'd most of their Learning from the Hebrews." -- Robert Boyle, chemist, The Sceptical Chymist, 1661

"Wherefore we have made it evident, that that very mechanical or atomical philosophy, that hath been lately restored by Cartesius and Gassendus, as to the main substance of it, was not only elder than Epicurus, but also than Plato and Aristotle, nay, than Democritus and Leucippus also, the commonly reputed fathers of it. And therefore we have no reason to discredit the report of Posidonius the Stoic, who, as Strabo tells us, affirmed this atomical philosophy to have been ancienter than the times of the Trojan war, and first to have been brought into Greece out of Phoenicia. ... And since it is certain from what we have shown, that neither Epicurus nor yet Democritus were the first inventors of this physiology, this testimony of Posidonius the Stoic ought in reason to be admitted by us. Now, what can be more probable than that this Moschus the Phoenician, that Posidonius speaks of, is the very same person with that Moschus the physiologer, that Jamblichus mentions in the Life of Pythagoras, where he affirms, that Pythagoras, living some time at Sidon in Phoenicia, conversed with the prophets that were the successors of Mochus the physiologer, and was instructed by them: ... 'He conversed with the prophets that were the successors of Mochus and other Phoenician priests.' And what can be more certain than that both Mochus and Moschus, the Phoenician and philosopher, was no other than Moses, the Jewish lawgiver, as Arverius [Johannes Arcerius] rightly guesses: ... 'It seems that it ought to be read Moschus, unless any had rather read it Mochus or Moses.' Wherefore according to the ancient tradition, Moschus or Moses the Phoenician being the first author of the atomical philosophy, it ought to be called neither Epicurean nor Democritical, but Moschical or Mosiacal." -- Ralph Cudworth, philosopher, The True Intellectual System of the Universe, Volume III, 1671

"That all matter consists of atoms was a very ancient opinion. This was the teaching of the multitude of philosophers who preceded Aristotle, namely Epicurus, Democritus, Ecphantus, Empedocles, Zenocrates, Heraclides, Asclepiades, Diodorus, Metrodorus of Chios, Pythagoras, and previous to these Moschus the Phoenician whom Strabo declares older than the Trojan war. For I think that same opinion obtained in that mystic philosophy which flowed down to the Greeks from Egypt and Phoenicia, since atoms are sometimes found designated by the mystics as monads." -- Isaac Newton, alchemist/mathematician, Portsmouth Manuscript, 1687

This statement is absolutely false, and I challenge you to find a single respectable source that claims this. (That means no biased 'creation research institute' sources)
I challenge you to name one single-celled organism that has ever magically, miraculously, and spontaneously evolved into a two-celled organism. And I challenge you to name one morphological change in archaea or cyanobacteria in the last 3 billion years.

This is an outright falsehood. Which church did he belong to? Can I call them up and ask them if he was a member of their congregation? There is not a shred of evidence that he would ever attend a church, and as you seem to have completely ignored all of my quotes showing how Sagan really felt about religion. Willfully ignorant describes you to a T.
LOL. Wow. Do you hate Carl Sagan because he attended Christian Church in Ithaca New York?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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How many times do we have to drill it into your thick skull that evolution and abiogenesis are completely different fields of study!
Ah yes, so every creationist believes in change. Well done.

Your little equation there is completely non sequitur and is nonsense.
Exactly why only 16% of Americans actually believe it.
 
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rjc34

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LOL. Wow. Do you hate Carl Sagan because he attended Christian Church in Ithaca New York?

No I'm just disappointed that you'd make such a fallacious claim against such a great man. You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

Evolution is not science: legalize creationism.
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No I'm just disappointed that you'd make such a fallacious claim against such a great man. You should be ashamed of yourself.
It's a historical fact.

http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/space_information/review_sagan_varieties.html

Book Review: Finding Sagan's God by Michael Shermer ...

Carl Sagan, the most spiritual scientist of our generation. Thanks to the efforts of his widow and longtime collaborator Ann Druyan, we now have the definitive statement by Carl of his position on God, religion, and spirituality in the context of a scientific worldview. The Varieties of Scientific Experience is a lightly edited transcript from the original lectures written and presented by Sagan at the University of Glasgow for the 1985 Gifford Lectures on Natural Theology.

http://www.curw.cornell.edu/sagehistory.html

Distinguished preachers have included: Phillips Brooks of Boston's Trinity Church (Sage's first preacher), Lyman Beecher, John R. Mott '88 (Nobel Laureate), Mordecai Wyatt Johnson, Harry Emerson Fosdick, Stephen Wise, Martin Luther King, Sr. and Jr., Reinhold Niebuhr, Paul Tillich, Elie Wiesel, Abraham Heschel, Hans Kung, Harold Kushner, Elizabeth Kübler-Ross, Carl Sagan, Jane Goodall, Arianna Huffington and Peter Gomes.
 
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dad

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Absolutely groundbreaking discovery! NASA scientists have found frozen and fossilized life on some meteors! This could give a huge boost to the theory of Panspermia for explaining the origin of life on earth. Everyone should read this paper, or if not, at least the conclusions drawn.

Fossils of Cyanobacteria in CI1 Carbonaceous Meteorites




The author has also submitted the paper to over 100 other leading researchers in the field to review the results and study the meteorites for them selves. We'll see in a couple of months whether the finding are accurate or not.

Yes we will wait and see....if flood material that returned to earth had life in it, preserved as fossils....whoopee do.
 
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rjc34

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Yes we will wait and see....if flood material that returned to earth had life in it, preserved as fossils....whoopee do.

While the conclusion of the scientific community on this paper has been that the finding may be premature, it would not change anything about the age of the universe. (Still 13.7 billion years...)
 
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rjc34

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It helps if you actually read your sources all the way through rather than just quote mine them...

"Consider how Carl begins Chapter 6, "The God Hypothesis," with a definitional challenge: "If we are to discuss the idea of God and be restricted to rational arguments, then it is probably useful to know what we are talking about when we say 'God.' This turns out not to be easy." Think of all the possible worlds that open up when gods are allowed into our thinking: "Worlds without gods, gods without worlds, gods that are made by preexisting gods, gods that were always here, gods that never die, gods that do die, gods that die more than once, different degrees of divine intervention in human affairs, zero, one, or many prophets, zero, one, or many saviours, zero, one, or many resurrections, zero, one, or many gods."

"Sagan was an agnostic."

So basically you've given me a great source saying he was an agnostic and loved contemplating the idea of gods and the possibilities of them. That's it. None of this nonsense of him being a 'churchgoer' or anything of the sort.



It's an interfaith community, unless you can prove otherwise he was likely giving a lecture on exactly the same topic as above. Your link is to an interfaith group, which would definitely allow that to be an option. Unless you can prove otherwise there's not reason to think he suddenly became a christian at that one time to give a lecture to a decidedly non-christian institution.



I am however glad you've learned to start citing your sources. Now maybe you can go back and watch those videos I politely asked you to watch.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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None of this nonsense of him being a 'churchgoer' or anything of the sort.
Ignorance of Dr. Sagan's churchgoing and preaching does not qualify as evidence or a logical counterargument.
 
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gipsy

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Ignorance does not qualify as evidence or a logical counterargument.

:doh:

Wow .... just Wow ....
You're picking one sentence out of a long and very well written and evidenced answer and (falsely) accuse him of doing something you're famous for.

But generally, your "argument" is completely correct ... It'd be just nice if you'd obey it yourself at least once in a while ...
 
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rjc34

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Ignorance of Dr. Sagan's churchgoing and preaching does not qualify as evidence or a logical counterargument.

Lack of evidence on your part for the claim counts perfectly towards my counterargument. You've made a baseless claim and cannot back it up.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Lack of evidence on your part for the claim counts perfectly towards my counterargument.
My evidence is direct empirical knowledge from a source whose word I believe with 100% certainty. My friend Zach who grew up in Ithaca New York with Carl Sagan's children attended a Christian Church with him.

Maybe that's why the Cornell University website claims he preached at an interdenominational Christian Church.

You've made a baseless claim and cannot back it up.
<staff edit>
 
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rjc34

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My evidence is direct empirical knowledge from a source whose word I believe with 100% certainty. My friend Zach who grew up in Ithaca New York with Carl Sagan's children attended a Christian Church with him.

You throw out 'empirical' to back up a claim from personal testimony?

Maybe that's why the Cornell University website claims he preached at an interdenominational Christian Church.

Did you even look at your source? Wow, second time I have to show you what you actually quoted. I kind of liked it when you just spewed random stuff my direction. It's a chapel on site supporting all faiths and spiritualities. It is in no way an 'interdenominational christian church'. Look at the listings! They've got everything from Jewish to Muslim to Catholic services, and even Zen Buddhist meditation!

You don't know what a base is.

I've seen some bad rebuttals in my time... but you sir certainly take the cake...

This is the intellectual equivalent of 'I know you are but what am I?'
 
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Nostromo

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Big surprise there, in your mind, then??
A big surprise that he went to church? Not really, I could go to church every week for the rest of my life and it doesn't make me a believer.

"Contrary to the fantasies of the fundamentalists, there was no deathbed conversion, no last minute refuge taken in a comforting vision of a heaven or an afterlife. For Carl, what mattered most was what was true, not merely what would make us feel better. Even at this moment when anyone would be forgiven for turning away from the reality of our situation, Carl was unflinching. As we looked deeply into each other's eyes, it was with a shared conviction that our wondrous life together was ending forever."
-- Ann Druyan, Epilogue to Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium

I think if anyone would know, his wife would. So, hypothetically speaking, if he was a Christian I'd be very surprised, yes.
 
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dad

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A big surprise that he went to church? Not really, I could go to church every week for the rest of my life and it doesn't make me a believer.

No...no big surprise he was pagan...or agnostic.

I think if anyone would know, his wife would. So, hypothetically speaking, if he was a Christian I'd be very surprised, yes.
So?
 
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rjc34

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No...no big surprise he was pagan...or agnostic.

He most definitely wasn't pagan, he practically dedicated half his life to dispelling myths and educating the masses. Hence 'Demon Haunted World'.



So his wife said he was an agnostic, and AoS was wrong.
 
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Doveaman

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"The Church has deferred to scientists on matters such as the age of the earth and the authenticity of the fossil record. Papal pronouncements, along with commentaries by cardinals, have accepted the findings of scientists on the gradual appearance of life..."
The papal's acceptance of scientific ideas sounds to me like blind faith in scientists. The papal should know better not to put such blind faith in anything. After all, it's the papal.
 
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