Fossil Record Observation

[Subduction Zone]

"but it does mean for a meander to form the rate of flow must be slow."

That is not right.
If you like to know why, ask.

Go ahead, tell me why I am wrong. I am all ears.

 

[The Barbarian]

I figure juvenissun could fix this up nicely by showing us rivers with meanders that run swiftly. Let's see what he comes up with.

amount of bedload. A meandering river channel has curves that meander back and forth on a gently sloping floodplain. The flow speed in the channel varies with the geometry of the meanders. Water has to travel faster on the outside of bends than on the insides of bends. We know from the relationships between Reynolds number and bed shear stress that higher flow speeds mean that more and coarser sediment can be transported at higher flow speeds. Thus, we can predict that:

1. there is more erosion on the outsides of bends
2. the sediment moving near the outsides of bends and in the deepest parts should include the coarsest sediment available
3. sediment will accumulate on the insides of bend and this sediment will be finer grained.

If we look at a channel in cross section, it is asymmetric, representing the sites of erosion and deposition. Variation in flow speed also produce different sedimentary structures. Upper planar lamination and dune cross stratification are common where Re is highest, and ripple cross lamination is common where Re is lower.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I figure juvenissun could fix this up nicely by showing us rivers with meanders that run swiftly. Let's see what he comes up with.

amount of bedload. A meandering river channel has curves that meander back and forth on a gently sloping floodplain. The flow speed in the channel varies with the geometry of the meanders. Water has to travel faster on the outside of bends than on the insides of bends. We know from the relationships between Reynolds number and bed shear stress that higher flow speeds mean that more and coarser sediment can be transported at higher flow speeds. Thus, we can predict that:

1. there is more erosion on the outsides of bends
2. the sediment moving near the outsides of bends and in the deepest parts should include the coarsest sediment available
3. sediment will accumulate on the insides of bend and this sediment will be finer grained.

If we look at a channel in cross section, it is asymmetric, representing the sites of erosion and deposition. Variation in flow speed also produce different sedimentary structures. Upper planar lamination and dune cross stratification are common where Re is highest, and ripple cross lamination is common where Re is lower.

Perhaps I should have been clearer that meanders form in areas of low velocity. Even in the high velocity sections of a meander it is much slower than the velocities you see in a stream in a V shaped valley. Especially when the meander formed its velocity had to be relatively low. And if the rate of flow itself was increased past a point it would quickly go into flood stage. How it eroded down we can discuss once others have enough honesty to admit that the meander at the very least could not have formed until after the flood.

 

[juvenissun]

Go ahead, tell me why I am wrong. I am all ears.

The formation of meandering does not depend on the flow speed, but depends on the nature of the sediments. With a certain property of sediments, even a very fast flow (or a very slow flow) will form meanders.

 

[USincognito]

At the very bottom you would expect to find large animals that either could not swim, or had trouble supporting their weight (such as dinosaurs), which we do see. Now we know that all modern animals can swim. So we would expect to see the swimmers at the top of the strata, which we do see.

A. Dinosaurs are not "at the very bottom".
B Marine reptiles could swim.
C. So couldn't armored fish and sea scorpions, but they are found lower than dinosaurs or marine reptiles.
D. Armored fish, marine reptiles and whales all can swim, but we found none of them in the same strata.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I was on another thread and we were discussing the fossil record, and I could see that there was a pattern to the depositing of fossils. That less well developed animals were found at the bottom of the strata, and that as time progressed the animals became better developed. Now for an evolutionary perspective, this would be said to be the gradual evolutionary change between species. However being a strong believer in creation I could not accept blindly that this was evidence for evolution. So I had a bit of a think about it. And this is what I feel can explain this, but I have put it here so we can talk about it.

I believe in a global flood, I believe God as the bible said flooded the whole earth. Now what would we expect to see if this happened?

We would see water slowly rising over the earth and drowning animals and man as it went. I would imagine as flood waters generally are they would be filled with sediment. So what as a Creationist (but not a scientist) would I expect to see. I believe the following:

At the lower levels you would have a lot of marine life and sediment from the oceans as they begin to spew out from the seas. Then this is where the strata come into it. As the waters rise and become deeper the following would occur. At the very bottom you would expect to find large animals that either could not swim, or had trouble supporting their weight (such as dinosaurs), which we do see. Now we know that all modern animals can swim. So we would expect to see the swimmers at the top of the strata, which we do see. Humans are more capable climbers that most animals so would be able to scale cliffs, and other out crops, accounting for their late arrival in the strata. Back to the animals however, which could still swim. We would see the young, babies, and youth, cease to swim before the adults, so be deposited first before the adults, we do see this small primates are even found with dinosaurs. This would give the impression to an evolutionary observer of the gradual increase in size of primates, and other animals. Why the younger smaller ones are found lower down (earlier in the drowning process), than the youth, or adults.

The biggest mammals are bigger then the smallest dino's, yet they are only found in younger strata.

/case closed

 

[The Barbarian]

The formation of meandering does not depend on the flow speed, but depends on the nature of the sediments. With a certain property of sediments, even a very fast flow (or a very slow flow) will form meanders.

I notice you dodged my request for an example.

 

[juvenissun]

I notice you dodged my request for an example.

What was your question?
I won't dodge a good question.

 

[The Barbarian]

Perhaps I should have been clearer that meanders form in areas of low velocity.

If you were wondering, I wasn't challenging your statement, which is AFAIK, correct in all cases.

Even in the high velocity sections of a meander it is much slower than the velocities you see in a stream in a V shaped valley.

Which is why rejuvenated streams, in the case of uplift, quickly become entrenched, and locked into their meanders.

[quote]Especially when the meander formed its velocity had to be relatively low. And if the rate of flow itself was increased past a point it would quickly go into flood stage. How it eroded down we can discuss once others have enough honesty to admit that the meander at the very least could not have formed until after the flood.[/QUOTE]

I'd just like to see an example of a swift stream forming meanders.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The formation of meandering does not depend on the flow speed, but depends on the nature of the sediments. With a certain property of sediments, even a very fast flow (or a very slow flow) will form meanders.

Don't make idle claims. I could claim that the Moon is made of green cheese and buttermilk. Let's see some links that support your claims.


It seems that you do not know where and how meanders form. They do not form in flood flow.

 

[Larniavc]

Basilosaurus is a large fish, the water wo

You see the problem here. You do not know that Basilosaurus was a mammal.

How any anyone who does not know this expect to be taken seriously discussing this subject?

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you were wondering, I wasn't challenging your statement, which is AFAIK, correct in all cases.

No, I did not think that you were. I noticed some improper terminology on my part.

Which is why rejuvenated streams, in the case of uplift, quickly become entrenched, and locked into their meanders.

Yep. But we don't want to spill all of the beans until they admit how to meanders form in the first place. So far all they have is silly denial.

I'd just like to see an example of a swift stream forming meanders.

Me too. It seems that juve thinks otherwise. But I would not want to put words into his mouth.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I wonder why there's all this aimless chaff, and no one wants to talk about the plants.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wonder why there's all this aimless chaff, and no one wants to talk about the plants.

They have no answer for that either. That is why they are ignoring it. I like the picture of the Goosenecks because it shows a feature that tells us that the sedimentary rocks could not have been laid down by the flood. It is much more obvious to the amateur than a lack of fossils. They would have to trust the work of another, those that actually did the work and found that 'pine trees are not as quick as oak trees' (oak trees can outrun flood waters for longer than pine trees can ). With the photo of the Goosenecks they can see the structure being discussed. By the way that fact that it had to be started after the flood is just the beginning.

 

[Queller]

I could have this all wrong, but this is, is my reasoning. I am not expecting a rush of deep water to spew accross the earth. I expect a gradual rise...

Not if the water was rising relatively slowly...

Why would you expect the flood waters to rise slowly? The Bible states that the "windows of heaven" and the "fountains of the great deep" open and the waters rose for 40 days and nights. In that time they had to rise far enough to cover Mt Everest with 22 feet of water. That means the sea level water had to rise 29,051 feet in 40 days. That requires a rate of ~726 feet a day or 30 feet an hour. How can that possibly be considered "relatively slowly"?

ETA: I see that you don't believe Mt. Everest existed prior to the Flood. This raises more problems than it solves. But let's start with something easy; how tall was the highest mountain prior to the Flood and what is your evidence for that claim?

 

[Queller]

I believe rock geology can be explain. Why? when flood waters are draining away after the flood the sediments are still quite soft, they are at this point not rocks. They could easily be eroded as water flowed away to lower ground.

For the other readers back to fish for a second, evolutionary text books state:

The Mesozoic Era began about 250 million years ago in the wake of the Permian-Triassic event, the largest mass extinction in Earth's history, and ended about 66 million years ago with the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event, another mass extinction that killed off non-avian dinosaurs, as well as other plant and animal species. It is often referred to as the Age of Reptiles because reptiles were the dominant vertebrates of the time.

What do we see from that:

Firstly small fish are in the fossil record in abundance. [why the flood waters are rising, small fish get trapped in the tidal ebb and flow],

Why would small fish be trapped in tidal pools when the water is rising at 30 feet per hour?

 

[Queller]

I agree with you on this important view point. Most people do not see this.

How gradual? Remember, you only have 40 days and nights worth of water increase to submerge the entire planet.

 

[Queller]

Sorry that I am confusing you. I don't expect a sudden big flood to sweep over the land. It is a gentle rise. With this theory small fish woul die first being caught in tidal flow.

This makes no sense. Rising water would not trap fish.

 

[Queller]

Researches are done by many students:

Did you notice that the meanders only formed when the water level was low. When they increased the water flow, the waters took the straightest course. Thanks for the evidence against meanders being able to form in flood conditions.

 

[Loudmouth]

At the lower levels you would have a lot of marine life and sediment from the oceans as they begin to spew out from the seas.

We find terrestrial sediments near the bottom of the fossil record, and it is devoid of life. How do you explain this?

As the waters rise and become deeper the following would occur. At the very bottom you would expect to find large animals that either could not swim, or had trouble supporting their weight (such as dinosaurs), which we do see.

No, we don't. We find small insects and small animals lowest in the terrestrial fossil record. There is no sorting according to size or any other such nonsense. We also find things like flowering plants that are found higher in the fossil record than animals. How are plants able to outrun animals?

Also, there is the sorting of rocks with fossils that you need to explain. How do dinosaurs always end up below igneous rocks that have a specific ratio of K and Ar, ratios consistent with 65 million years of decay by current measurements? How does a flood sort fossils so that they match the ratios of isotopes in the rocks around them?