Formal Debate Peanut Gallery - Atheistic Secular Humanism...

[Loudmouth]

Yeah, pubs are quite nice. I know some countries don't really have something similar to pubs. Only bars and clubs.

In the US, many bars are like pubs, at least in the northwest where I live. Each bar has its own group of regulars that are usually from the same neighborhood. There are also quite a few brewpubs and local varieties of beer.

 

[Paradoxum]

In the US, many bars are like pubs, at least in the northwest where I live. Each bar has its own group of regulars that are usually from the same neighborhood. There are also quite a few brewpubs and local varieties of beer.

Ah, okay.

 

[stevevw]

That is precisely how I would describe christianity.

Well the fact is statistics show that religion actually gives hope to people when there is none in this world. It actually gives them some substance in their life in which they can find some hope and well being.

 

[stevevw]

As usual, Calvin and Hobbes says it best . . .

 

[CabVet]

Well the fact is statistics show that religion actually gives hope to people when there is none in this world. It actually gives them some substance in their life in which they can find some hope and well being.

Really? Can you link to that statistical fact? I would like to see the data myself. Or did you just hear it from someone?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well the fact is statistics show that religion actually gives hope to people when there is none in this world. It actually gives them some substance in their life in which they can find some hope and well being.

That's not to say that there aren't better ways of being hopeful, however.

 

[stevevw]

That's not to say that there aren't better ways of being hopeful, however.

There are many ways of feeling that there is hope out of a situation. It can be a short term thing or a longer term aspiration. You have to be practical and offer incentives and a goal that people can see and achieve out of their situations. Sometimes that has to happen step by step and they have to achieve those little things first. But I believe that there are times when people dont see much hope in the world around them and worldly solutions just aren't enough. I believe that when it gets to a point where it becomes a matter of life and death or when someone is totally devastated that a person can look to God. We can find some hope and comfort beyond this limited world in God and the possibility that there is an afterlife that hasn't got all the pain and suffering that we experience in this world. I believe this can be experienced now in this life and that it can add dimension to a persons life. Even if you say its not true it certainly can offer some comfort in those times of need. Afterall people will turn to many things that are even worse than saying that hope in God is unreal like alcohol and drugs.

 

[stevevw]

Really? Can you link to that statistical fact? I would like to see the data myself. Or did you just hear it from someone?

Yes there are various studies that show benefits of belonging to a religion and church activities. It also shows that being married long term has benefits. Certainly belonging to a church with the sense of community and support gives a person many benefits. This can often been seen with those members of society who are socially isolated. Religions are often associated with helping people come together and supporting individuals and families through hard times.

There is also some evidence that religion helps the elderly at this stage of their life. This is interesting as this would the the time when many people are facing the end of their worldly life. This is a time when the important questions will come up and there would be a big difference in the consequences of what a person believes. Is it the end and thats it and there nothing else or is there something more to go onto. I would imagine the elderly that are facing death would know about these things more than anyone else. All this gives support and well being to the community.

We argue that both marriage and religiosity generally have far-reaching, positive effects; that they influence similar domains of life; and that there are important parallels in the pathways through which each achieves these outcomes.

Our comparative analysis of religion and marriage in the United States reveals remarkable similarities in the benefits that are associated with these two social institutions, and also in the pathways through which they operate. Being married and being involved in religious activities are generally associated with positive effects in several areas, including physical and mental health, economic outcomes, and the process of raising children.
The Benefits from Marriage and Religion in the United States: A Comparative Analysis

Over the past decade, considerable research has emerged that demonstrates the benefits of religious practice within society.[1] Religious practice promotes the well-being of individuals, families, and the community.
Why Religion Matters Even More: The Impact of Religious Practice on Social Stability

A growing body of research is beginning to define the complex connections between religious and spiritual beliefs and practices and an individual's physical and psychological health.
Spirituality May Help People Live Longer

Religion correlates with improved physical and mental health. However, experts cannot determine whether religion contributes to health or whether psychologically or physically healthier people are attracted to religious groups. If religion is helpful, the reason—whether it is the religious beliefs themselves or other factors—is not clear. Many such factors (eg, psychologic benefits, encouragement of healthful practices, social support) have been proposed.
Religion and Spirituality in the Elderly: Social Issues in the Elderly: Merck Manual Professional

 

[Archaeopteryx]

There are many ways of feeling that there is hope out of a situation. It can be a short term thing or a longer term aspiration. You have to be practical and offer incentives and a goal that people can see and achieve out of their situations. Sometimes that has to happen step by step and they have to achieve those little things first. But I believe that there are times when people dont see much hope in the world around them and worldly solutions just aren't enough. I believe that when it gets to a point where it becomes a matter of life and death or when someone is totally devastated that a person can look to God. We can find some hope and comfort beyond this limited world in God and the possibility that there is an afterlife that hasn't got all the pain and suffering that we experience in this world. I believe this can be experienced now in this life and that it can add dimension to a persons life. Even if you say its not true it certainly can offer some comfort in those times of need. Afterall people will turn to many things that are even worse than saying that hope in God is unreal like alcohol and drugs.

Yes, but again, that's not to say that there aren't better ways of finding hope other than invoking the supernatural. People regularly find hope in their friendships, in art, and sport, and philosophy, and all various other nasty "worldly" things that we are supposed to shun.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes there are various studies that show benefits of belonging to a religion and church activities. It also shows that being married long term has benefits. Certainly belonging to a church with the sense of community and support gives a person many benefits. This can often been seen with those members of society who are socially isolated. Religions are often associated with helping people come together and supporting individuals and families through hard times.

There is also some evidence that religion helps the elderly at this stage of their life. This is interesting as this would the the time when many people are facing the end of their worldly life. This is a time when the important questions will come up and there would be a big difference in the consequences of what a person believes. Is it the end and thats it and there nothing else or is there something more to go onto. I would imagine the elderly that are facing death would know about these things more than anyone else. All this gives support and well being to the community.

We argue that both marriage and religiosity generally have far-reaching, positive effects; that they influence similar domains of life; and that there are important parallels in the pathways through which each achieves these outcomes.

Our comparative analysis of religion and marriage in the United States reveals remarkable similarities in the benefits that are associated with these two social institutions, and also in the pathways through which they operate. Being married and being involved in religious activities are generally associated with positive effects in several areas, including physical and mental health, economic outcomes, and the process of raising children.
The Benefits from Marriage and Religion in the United States: A Comparative Analysis

Over the past decade, considerable research has emerged that demonstrates the benefits of religious practice within society.[1] Religious practice promotes the well-being of individuals, families, and the community.
Why Religion Matters Even More: The Impact of Religious Practice on Social Stability

A growing body of research is beginning to define the complex connections between religious and spiritual beliefs and practices and an individual's physical and psychological health.
Spirituality May Help People Live Longer

Religion correlates with improved physical and mental health. However, experts cannot determine whether religion contributes to health or whether psychologically or physically healthier people are attracted to religious groups. If religion is helpful, the reason—whether it is the religious beliefs themselves or other factors—is not clear. Many such factors (eg, psychologic benefits, encouragement of healthful practices, social support) have been proposed.
Religion and Spirituality in the Elderly: Social Issues in the Elderly: Merck Manual Professional

Interesting. Perhaps belonging to any socially cohesive and supportive community group, regardless of its religiosity, is enough to obtain similar benefits. This makes sense given that, as Waite and Lehrer state, "A large body of research points to social integration and the regulation of health behaviors as key pathways through which both institutions [marriage and religion] exert an influence."http://www.merckmanuals.com/profess...religion_and_spirituality_in_the_elderly.html

 

[stevevw]

Interesting. Perhaps belonging to any socially cohesive and supportive community group, regardless of its religiosity, is enough to obtain similar benefits. This makes sense given that, as Waite and Lehrer state, "A large body of research points to social integration and the regulation of health behaviors as key pathways through which both institutions [marriage and religion] exert an influence."

Yes I would agree. It is largely based on a sense of belonging and social contact. Any group that can do this will give a similar benefit. But also it is saying that religious groups are in the business of doing this. They are also continuously taking an interest in people and their families, in the elderly and vulnerable people in society. Their way of living which is associated with trying to maintain families and good living also has an effect. The social contact of talking to people and trying to help them with life's ups and downs all helps towards people having a little extra dimension to their lives. They may not always be the best or experts at every situation but their hearts are normally in the right place. Thats part of their creed and how they should live. Whether you think that God is real certainly we can say that the institution of religious affiliation has some benefits in that sense.

 

[Syd the Human]

Yes I would agree. It is largely based on a sense of belonging and social contact. Any group that can do this will give a similar benefit. But also it is saying that religious groups are in the business of doing this. They are also continuously taking an interest in people and their families, in the elderly and vulnerable people in society. Their way of living which is associated with trying to maintain families and good living also has an effect. The social contact of talking to people and trying to help them with life's ups and downs all helps towards people having a little extra dimension to their lives. They may not always be the best or experts at every situation but their hearts are normally in the right place. Thats part of their creed and how they should live. Whether you think that God is real certainly we can say that the institution of religious affiliation has some benefits in that sense.

I think that having this sort of social group does benefit other people, which is why the church is often so appealing even though I don't think god exists. The best part of Sunday was Sunday School because I got to hang out and learn with other people I would not have otherwise. However, a religious institution may not be the only place to get this kind of interaction.

Our Story | The Sunday Assembly

As this organization grows, thankfully those who do not believe in god can have a place to go for social gatherings you would see in a church. It would be interesting to see what studies say about religious vs non-religious happiness if the Sunday assembly becomes a norm in society. I really want to visit one, just to see how it is at least.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Another post is up: #3

 

[BL2KTN]

Surprise, surprise... Froedin wins in one post.

 

[stevevw]

Yes, but again, that's not to say that there aren't better ways of finding hope other than invoking the supernatural. People regularly find hope in their friendships, in art, and sport, and philosophy, and all various other nasty "worldly" things that we are supposed to shun.

Yes there are many ways to find hope. I just believe that people can get let down by the things in this world. A person commits suicide every 40 seconds now and it has become a greater killer than natural disasters. This is not counting all the failed attempts and those with mental illness and depression. From my experience of dealing with those with depression it seems doctors are only to quick to prescribe some pill to try and take away the feelings. This may be of help for some at times but I think its over subscribed and some are on them for years and I think it makes matters worse in a way. They lose something and become like zombies. Nobody wants to take the time to talk and work through things. Its like no one cares anymore.

There are many out in society that are isolated and have no one. The government doesn't care and they just cut funding and make people look after themselves. There are many more people out in society with mental illness being misdiagnosed and often families have to struggle trying to cope with them or the charities are looking after them. There are many more people turning to charities and are finding it harder to cope. There seems to be a poor class being created while a small group get richer. Some countries are going bankrupt and who knows when the next GFC will hit and then all the chickens will come home to roost again. Except next time it may be even worse. Thats when many lose their life savings and all their hard work goes down the drain. There are millions struggling in poor countries and millions displaced around the world living in camps with no place to call home. There are many conflicts around the world and many regimes that treat people badly. There is growing terrorism and drugs are sending people crazy and destroying families and the fabric of society.

For many if this world is all they have well there's not much to look forward to. Mankind has shown time and time again that we cant get our act together when it comes to sharing and living in peace. Greed and corruption take control and we become selfish and only think of ourselves. Big companies want to make profits at the expense of people. Everybody puts all their hope in having things to make them happy. The dream of winning the lottery and getting lots of money. Its all based on a falsehood that will never make people happy. Its not the things of this world that will make us happy. Its by trusting in God. As God says He will look after us if we put our trust in Him.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes there are many ways to find hope. I just believe that people can get let down by the things in this world. A person commits suicide every 40 seconds now and it has become a greater killer than natural disasters. This is not counting all the failed attempts and those with mental illness and depression. From my experience of dealing with those with depression it seems doctors are only to quick to prescribe some pill to try and take away the feelings. This may be of help for some at times but I think its over subscribed and some are on them for years and I think it makes matters worse in a way. They lose something and become like zombies. Nobody wants to take the time to talk and work through things. Its like no one cares anymore.

There are many out in society that are isolated and have no one. The government doesn't care and they just cut funding and make people look after themselves. There are many more people out in society with mental illness being misdiagnosed and often families have to struggle trying to cope with them or the charities are looking after them. There are many more people turning to charities and are finding it harder to cope. There seems to be a poor class being created while a small group get richer. Some countries are going bankrupt and who knows when the next GFC will hit and then all the chickens will come home to roost again. Except next time it may be even worse. Thats when many lose their life savings and all their hard work goes down the drain. There are millions struggling in poor countries and millions displaced around the world living in camps with no place to call home. There are many conflicts around the world and many regimes that treat people badly. There is growing terrorism and drugs are sending people crazy and destroying families and the fabric of society.

For many if this world is all they have well there's not much to look forward to. Mankind has shown time and time again that we cant get our act together when it comes to sharing and living in peace. Greed and corruption take control and we become selfish and only think of ourselves. Big companies want to make profits at the expense of people. Everybody puts all their hope in having things to make them happy. The dream of winning the lottery and getting lots of money. Its all based on a falsehood that will never make people happy. Its not the things of this world that will make us happy. Its by trusting in God. As God says He will look after us if we put our trust in Him.

You seem to be presenting religion as a panacea for all these social ills. Yet after thousands of years religion has shown that it is just as capable of contributing to social problems as it is capable of mitigating them.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I think the worship of deities would be the definition which we all pretty much think of when we think of religion.

A 'church' without the supernatural is just a social gathering or lecture.

Would you consider Theravada Buddhism a religion? They believe in supernatural realities, and are open to the existence of gods, but they don't have Bodhisattvas like Mahayana Buddhism to whom they can pray for supernatural assistance in their quest for enlightenment. And yet except for that, they have all the elements of religion- including regular communal services, monasteries, etc.

 

[Loudmouth]

Surprise, surprise... Froedin wins in one post.

Agreed. Like a professional bullfighter, he taunts and dances to entertain the crowd before going in for the kill shot.

"And all these excerpts show that the common usage of the term “religion”, now and in the past, all are based on God, gods, higher powers, the superhuman and supernatural."

Debate over.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Agreed. Like a professional bullfighter, he taunts and dances to entertain the crowd before going in for the kill shot.

"And all these excerpts show that the common usage of the term “religion”, now and in the past, all are based on God, gods, higher powers, the superhuman and supernatural."

Debate over.

To try to breathe some life into the debate, note that the first definition does not necessarily require the supernatural: “a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies…” [my emphasis]

It certainly leans strongly toward gods being necessary for a religion, but not exclusively. This would give Freodin a chance to look at the first half of the definition. For instance, do secular humanists have a set of beliefs concerning the purpose of the universe?

A quick look through the Humanist Manifesto shows a lot of interest in what the purpose of people or society is, but nothing at all about the purpose of the universe.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

To try to breathe some life into the debate, note that the first definition does not necessarily require the supernatural: “a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies…” [my emphasis]

It certainly leans strongly toward gods being necessary for a religion, but not exclusively. This would give Freodin a chance to look at the first half of the definition. For instance, do secular humanists have a set of beliefs concerning the purpose of the universe?

A quick look through the Humanist Manifesto shows a lot of interest in what the purpose of people or society is, but nothing at all about the purpose of the universe.

All good points. I don't think secular humanism, in that sense, is necessarily a religion, but I don't think affirmative atheism necessarily excludes ultimate questions of meaning and cosmic purpose.

Randian Objectivism and Theravada Buddhism, for instance, both deny the ultimate existence of a god (even if the latter allows room for lesser-order gods that are ultimately irrelevant), and yet both have the characteristics of a religion.

So although I think TheyCallMeDavid is really barking up the wrong tree here, I don't think Freodin has addressed the real heart of the debate: Where worldviews end and religions begin.