Formal Debate Peanut Gallery - Atheistic Secular Humanism...

[variant]

What if God made his existence plain to our senses? He appeared in physical form and could be clearly seen and heard by everyone. Would belief in God continue to be religious?

If we had undeniable facts we wouldn't need religions.

 

[Tree of Life]

If we had undeniable facts we wouldn't need religions.

So how is religion being defined then?

 

[variant]

So how is religion being defined then?

In that context religion is a tradition of what people do to fill in the gaps between metaphysical facts.

We would naturally exclude basic rationalism and inductive inference from that as they are extrapolations on facts.

 

[stevevw]

That isn't the same use of the word as we would use it when applied to religions.

What is the difference. Followers of a soccer team for example will meet together and believe that they team is the best. They will live and breath they team and chant and sing songs about their team. In fact many thing that some of their players or even their manager is God.

synonyms:faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; sect, cult, religious group, faith community, church, denomination, body, following, persuasion, affiliation

As you can see most of these words dont really apply to God Himself or His divinity. They can aslo be applied to non religious things.

But religion is a man made institution. Even though its mostly to do with a belief in God it is still a man made thing that has all the added practices that are not necessarily in the doctrines of the religion itself. Ie the Catholics added that women could not enter a church without wearing something over their heads many years ago. They said you couldn't eat meat on Easter Friday. They wear all these robes and burn essence and all that at their church meetings. They made big grand buildings to hold their masses as part of their worship. None of that is in the bible.

 

[Colter]

Humanism or secularism are more of a sociological movement but based on the agenda of a belief in the doctrines of doubt.

However when an Atheist joins a Christian internet Forum, they aren't here to sell girl Scott cookies but to argue and promote a cause. You could even call it proselytizing. One Atheist member claims to want to save the religious from our "war on reality".

But the secular doesn't necessarily mean anti religious, it could just mean civil institutions that keep the trains running on time. Not all secularist promote progressive anti religious-ism.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Religion to me suggests a "contract" of sorts between human individuals (sometimes entire human communities) and deities. Human beings owe something to the gods (sacrifices, piety, faith, etc), and the gods owe (or at least promise) something in return to human beings (good harvests, salvation, etc).

Where there are no gods, I'd use the term "quasi-religion" to describe the view if there is some supernatural element (such as life after death) to make it "feel" like a religion.

Are Buddhism and Jainism religions?

I think that they would describe themselves as dharmas. But they seem like religions, or at least quasi-religions, for their supernatural elements, such as life after death views.

Does that mean Deism and Epicureanism aren't religions? Scientology?

It's difficult to say if Deism is a religion, but I think it is a quasi-religion at best. I'm assuming here that there is no "contract" between a Deist and his Deity. Neither really owes the other anything.

As for Epicureanism, I don't know of anyone who views that as a religion. It's a philosophy.

Yes, Epicurus accepted the idea that there might be god-like beings out there in the Cosmos, but they are perfectly content to ignore us and think their their divine thoughts. They don't answer our prayers and there is no point in praying to them or worshiping them. The gods aren't even supernatural entities, but are fully a part of our atomic reality.

Epicurus [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

Because of its denial of divine providence, Epicureanism was often charged in antiquity with being a godless philosophy, although Epicurus and his followers denied the charge. The main upshot of Epicurean theology is certainly negative, however. Epicurus’ mechanistic explanations of natural phenomena are supposed to displace explanations that appeal to the will of the gods. In addition, Epicurus is one of the earliest philosophers we know of to have raised the Problem of Evil, arguing against the notion that the world is under the providential care of a loving deity by pointing out the manifold suffering in the world.

Despite this, Epicurus says that there are gods, but these gods are quite different from the popular conception of gods. We have a conception of the gods, says Epicurus, as supremely blessed and happy beings. Troubling oneself about the miseries of the world, or trying to administer the world, would be inconsistent with a life of tranquility, says Epicurus, so the gods have no concern for us. In fact, they are unaware of our existence, and live eternally in the intermundia, the space between the cosmoi. For Epicurus, the gods function mainly as ethical ideals, whose lives we can strive to emulate, but whose wrath we need not fear.

Ancient critics thought the Epicurean gods were a thin smoke-screen to hide Epicurus’ atheism, and difficulties with a literal interpretation of Epicurus’ sayings on the nature of the gods (for instance, it appears inconsistent with Epicurus’ atomic theory to hold that any compound body, even a god, could be immortal) have led some scholars to conjecture that Epicurus’ ‘gods’ are thought-constructs, and exist only in human minds as idealizations, i.e., the gods exist, but only as projections of what the most blessed life would be.


No one views Aristotelianism as a religion either, despite the stated view that some sentient "Prime Mover" exists. We don't have a "contract" with the Prime Mover either, and it is a natural entity despite its metaphysical peculiarities.

As for Scientology, it is arguably a quasi-religion in that it has many supernatural views, such as the existence of body thetans and life after death.

Secular Humanism may provide some social glue, but it just doesn't feel religion-like enough for me to see it as a religion. There are no deities and no supernatural views. I count it as a philosophical community instead.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Tree of Life]

In that context religion is a tradition of what people do to fill in the gaps between metaphysical facts.

We would naturally exclude basic rationalism and inductive inference from that as they are extrapolations on facts.

Based on this definition I am not a religious person.

 

[variant]

Based on this definition I am not a religious person.

But you certainly are by that definition.

Example:

For the Christian, belief in God and belief in God's word are ultimately identical. One cannot deny God without denying his word. One cannot deny God's word without denying God.

And, for the Christian, God's word is contained in the Bible.

So, aren't you a Christian? The Bible certainly does what I defined.

How was the universe created?

What happens after you die?

 

[Paradoxum]

What if God made his existence plain to our senses? He appeared in physical form and could be clearly seen and heard by everyone. Would belief in God continue to be religious?

I suppose so. I don't know. I'm not sure a religion is just belief in God.

What is the difference. Followers of a soccer team for example will meet together and believe that they team is the best. They will live and breath they team and chant and sing songs about their team. In fact many thing that some of their players or even their manager is God.

They don't believe in a supernatural transcendent being, that's the difference. (Well they might believe in one, but that isn't relevant to the sport).

synonyms:faith, belief, divinity, worship, creed, teaching, doctrine, theology; sect, cult, religious group, faith community, church, denomination, body, following, persuasion, affiliation

As you can see most of these words dont really apply to God Himself or His divinity. They can aslo be applied to non religious things.

Okay. Posting a load of synonyms from a dictionary isn't convincing. A religion has to be about the transcendent supernatural for it to be a religion.

But religion is a man made institution. Even though its mostly to do with a belief in God it is still a man made thing that has all the added practices that are not necessarily in the doctrines of the religion itself. Ie the Catholics added that women could not enter a church without wearing something over their heads many years ago. They said you couldn't eat meat on Easter Friday. They wear all these robes and burn essence and all that at their church meetings. They made big grand buildings to hold their masses as part of their worship. None of that is in the bible.

Though the Bible does give random rules though. Women wearing hats in church is one of them. You may say it doesn't apply now, but it's there.

 

[stevevw]

They don't believe in a supernatural transcendent being, that's the difference. (Well they might believe in one, but that isn't relevant to the sport).

Fair enough. In this context it is about the supernatural.

Okay. Posting a load of synonyms from a dictionary isn't convincing. A religion has to be about the transcendent supernatural for it to be a religion.

Fair enough.

Though the Bible does give random rules though. Women wearing hats in church is one of them. You may say it doesn't apply now, but it's there.

Yeah there are some things said in the bible that people take out of context. It does say some things like this. Not eating meat on the good Friday was taken from a verse that did say to not eat meat at certain times but it was turned into something else. In fact it was more related to Jewish practice. But Christ clarified this by saying it wasn't the traditions of what you put into your mouth to eat that made you righteous. It was what came out of your heart. He was pointing out that the law that the Jews had imposed to make them clean and justified before God were not going to save them. It was what was in a persons heart and where their inner self was at. But some have taken the verse and used it as a ritual and are keeping alive a practice and making it greater than the true spirit of what it represented from Christ Himself.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

If the debater is good the equivocation will fall more subtlety on the term "religion" as you can do any number of things "religiously" and not have a religion.

Secular is the problem here though because it specifically means "not religious", and it is hard to get around the idea.

The interesting thing about proposing such a debate to try to equivocate religion and secularism is that it seems to indicate that the religious person doesn't care much for authority of religion in general...

Which I suppose isn't much of an issue because they seem very comfortable dismissing other religions.

Doesn't this mean though that if secularism isn't properly a religion that it is more valid as an idea?

That seems like an idea that I would come up with but it seems strange when proffered by the religious person.

What does it mean to you to "do something religiously"?

 

[stevevw]

If someone is looking for a guidance in life as to what is good and bad and they dont have a particular belief to look to then they will be open to whatever is most dominate in their life. This is how it works especially if the person is not strong and assured of themselves. We see this with the way that young people look to the media and the stars as their icons. We see this in how many people follow the Hollywood stars lives and how this is portrayed in the media. They are Gods themselves and everyone looks up to them. The latest trends and diets and fashion are all coming from this. People especially women get to a point where they are depressed because they cant live up to this expectation.

Then you see the 101 different remedies, fad diets, latest philosophies, new inventions, get rich quick schemes, win the lottery and buy the dream life, reality TV and get famous just like the stars, supposed secret way to live better and the many other things that are promoted as the latest way to have a better life. People are subject to all of this and it runs a multi billion dollar industry. No wonder people are confused and getting depressed. Its such a let down and its totally unreal. It changes every week and the media is constantly throwing things at people all the time.

If a person doesn't have a good strong foundation to build their life on then it will be constantly washed away and will never take root. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and you can depend on God to give true happiness and peace in your life. God is the only way a person will find what they are looking for.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

In that context religion is a tradition of what people do to fill in the gaps between metaphysical facts.

We would naturally exclude basic rationalism and inductive inference from that as they are extrapolations on facts.

Get to the root etymology of the word: religare- "to bind together into a unity"

This is the purpose of religions in general is to bind the people together as a whole functioning super-organism that has greater electromagnetic nesting potential than the individual or sum of individual parts. Shared Spirit.

Spirit acts implosively. If you build the nest, the bird will land. You can only build so much on your own and we are surrounded and immersed in greater EM fields. The range of electromagnetic interaction is infinite.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Get to the root etymology of the word: religare- "to bind together into a unity"

From a dictionary:
Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back

This could refer to binding a community together, for instance, due to shared beliefs and practices.

But it could refer merely to binding a community and its chosen gods together, for instance, by engaging in a "contract" with the gods.

I don't think that this has ever been settled, and I don't think that word etymologies are going to be helpful today. Governments bind communities today -- are they religions? In ancient times, there was no effective separation of church and state, so the distinction never had to be made. We may have to think this one out for ourselves.

This is the purpose of religions in general is to bind the people together as a whole functioning super-organism that has greater electromagnetic nesting potential than the individual or sum of individual parts. Shared Spirit.

Spirit acts implosively. If you build the nest, the bird will land. You can only build so much on your own and we are surrounded and immersed in greater EM fields. The range of electromagnetic interaction is infinite.

You are going to make a fortune on the New Age circuit.

There's a ______ born every ______.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

From a dictionary:
Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back

This could refer to binding a community together, for instance, due to shared beliefs and practices.

But it could refer merely to binding a community and its chosen gods together, for instance, by engaging in a "contract" with the gods.

I don't think that this has ever been settled, and I don't think that word etymologies are going to be helpful today. Governments bind communities today -- are they religions? In ancient times, there was no effective separation of church and state, so the distinction never had to be made. We may have to think this one out for ourselves.



You are going to make a fortune on the New Age circuit.

There's a ______ born every ______.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I would love to explore this with you. But it is late, perhaps tomorrow?

I am an arborist. I trim suckers back to the trunk.


The thinking modality of the human vehicle is like static electricity. No flow.

The feeling modality is like a current electricity. Flow between interactive fields.

People often flip between these states without realizing they have, they just get caught up in the inertia of "their own" thoughts and emotions in reaction to whatever external stimuli happens to arise. Thought streams like an orbiting electron that jumps valences and forgets where it has been or can't remember how to get back down from a charged state.

Many adjectives we use for emotions are electromagnetic: attraction/repulsion, charged state, live wire, positive/negative, in the flow, connected. Even uprightness and moral conduct/conduction is electromagnetic and polar. There are two directions; doing good or doing evil. Not left or right but up or down.

Some people are negative and they literal suck the charge out of you. Some people are positive and they charge up whom ever enters their field.
I'm sure you have experienced these things personally.

The reality behind all these "feelings" is electromagnetic. Our hearts are EM fields thousands of times stronger than the brain, reaching way out into the environment and when two people are gathered together they either mutually support or start to cancel out. Simple interference patterns and wave dynamics which your mind (eyes) would be lost in. That it why you feel and work with them on an intimate level.

Imagine what can happen when numerous heart fields entrain for sympathetic resonance of information across scale. Do you have any idea the amount of information you are already immersed in, going on right under your nose?

We are immersed in numerous nested electromagnetic fields which have no limit of interaction over distance. Whether we are aware of them or not is immaterial to their reality, presence, and interaction beneath one's level of consciousness.

 

[Loudmouth]

If a person doesn't have a good strong foundation to build their life on then it will be constantly washed away and will never take root. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and you can depend on God to give true happiness and peace in your life. God is the only way a person will find what they are looking for.

What strikes me as interesting is how oblivious some christians are to the hundreds of millions of people who belong to completely different religions. Do you think hundreds of millions of Hindus are really unhappy because they are not christians?

 

[variant]

Get to the root etymology of the word: religare- "to bind together into a unity"

This is the purpose of religions in general is to bind the people together as a whole functioning super-organism that has greater electromagnetic nesting potential than the individual or sum of individual parts. Shared Spirit.

Spirit acts implosively. If you build the nest, the bird will land. You can only build so much on your own and we are surrounded and immersed in greater EM fields. The range of electromagnetic interaction is infinite.

I feel like you are proving my point quite accidentally and eloquently.

Thank you.

I reiterate:

Religion is a tradition of what people do to fill in the gaps between metaphysical facts. (above is an example)

 

[variant]

What does it mean to you to "do something religiously"?

To do something religiously is to make it a ritual practice you are devoted to, as if it were a religious ritual.

I could for instance walk my dog at sunrise religiously.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

David's opening post is up: #2

 

[Loudmouth]

David's opening post is up: #2

His post is the intellectual equivalent of a suicide car bomber. He doesn't care how irrelevant he makes his own religion look as long as he makes atheism look as bad as his religious beliefs. I think we can now conclude that christianity is as important as playing golf on Saturdays.