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Formal Debate Peanut Gallery - Atheistic Secular Humanism...

Paradoxum

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Yeah there are some things said in the bible that people take out of context. It does say some things like this. Not eating meat on the good Friday was taken from a verse that did say to not eat meat at certain times but it was turned into something else. In fact it was more related to Jewish practice. But Christ clarified this by saying it wasn't the traditions of what you put into your mouth to eat that made you righteous. It was what came out of your heart. He was pointing out that the law that the Jews had imposed to make them clean and justified before God were not going to save them. It was what was in a persons heart and where their inner self was at. But some have taken the verse and used it as a ritual and are keeping alive a practice and making it greater than the true spirit of what it represented from Christ Himself.

My point is that there are necessary silly rules. You can say that they don't apply for some theological reason, which is fair enough. I just hope people would think about these rules, instead of just assuming they all apply, even though they don't seem to serve any good.

If someone is looking for a guidance in life as to what is good and bad and they dont have a particular belief to look to then they will be open to whatever is most dominate in their life. This is how it works especially if the person is not strong and assured of themselves. We see this with the way that young people look to the media and the stars as their icons. We see this in how many people follow the Hollywood stars lives and how this is portrayed in the media. They are Gods themselves and everyone looks up to them. The latest trends and diets and fashion are all coming from this. People especially women get to a point where they are depressed because they cant live up to this expectation.

Then you see the 101 different remedies, fad diets, latest philosophies, new inventions, get rich quick schemes, win the lottery and buy the dream life, reality TV and get famous just like the stars, supposed secret way to live better and the many other things that are promoted as the latest way to have a better life. People are subject to all of this and it runs a multi billion dollar industry. No wonder people are confused and getting depressed. Its such a let down and its totally unreal. It changes every week and the media is constantly throwing things at people all the time.

If a person doesn't have a good strong foundation to build their life on then it will be constantly washed away and will never take root. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and you can depend on God to give true happiness and peace in your life. God is the only way a person will find what they are looking for.

Though I'd rather people care about reality TV than to have a very incorrect worldview. Better to love celebrities than be a religious extremist (I know those aren't the only options). :)
 
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essentialsaltes

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His post is the intellectual equivalent of a suicide car bomber. He doesn't care how irrelevant he makes his own religion look as long as he makes atheism look as bad as his religious beliefs. I think we can now conclude that christianity is as important as playing golf on Saturdays.

It's every bit as bad as I thought. In the proposal thread I asked what definition of religion would be used. I thought that would be a helpful way to set the ground rules, but it's clear he's mainly focusing on irrelevant trappings. Golf on Saturdays is a good analogue, but a better one might be political parties:

'Consider these facts about political parties and see if it has all the trappings
of a practiced religion :

1. Political parties are highly organized throughout this nation and the world. There are many large Political Organizations that would love a greater constituency and advertise for such.

2. There are even Political Camps throughout the nation

3. They meet regularly to discuss local and national agendas which
include scrutinizing Democrats and Republicans.

4. The Political Organizations collect dues regularly just like Churches

5. They have very large national Conferences yearly just like Church
Denominations do.

6. There are active Internet Political Newsgroups to educate followers in their tenets

7. They collaborate to build up each other in their freewill chosen
political philosophies the same that Church Members build up one another in
following and obeying Christ as a lifestyle.'

and so on

Finally, at the end...

"If we define religion as someone’s explanation of ultimate
reality—the origin, operation, meaning, and destiny of all things"

Well, I guess we agree that defining religion will be important to the debate.
 
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Loudmouth

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It's every bit as bad as I thought. In the proposal thread I asked what definition of religion would be used. I thought that would be a helpful way to set the ground rules, but it's clear he's mainly focusing on irrelevant trappings. Golf on Saturdays is a good analogue, but a better one might be political parties:

'Consider these facts about political parties and see if it has all the trappings
of a practiced religion :

Don't forget golf camps for youngsters. There is even iconography:

usga_logo.jpg


Not to mention the golf bible:

rules%20book%202010.jpg
 
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essentialsaltes

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Don't forget golf camps for youngsters. There is even iconography...

Yeah I was thinking that every congregation (er club) probably has a golf pro to minister to the flock and bring them up in the ways of righteousness.
 
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Yeah I was thinking that every congregation (er club) probably has a golf pro to minister to the flock and bring them up in the ways of righteousness.

The Golfing 10 Commandments?

"Thou shalt not walk among the brethren with thy iron uncovered, for it is a holey thing."

....
 
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stevevw

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What strikes me as interesting is how oblivious some christians are to the hundreds of millions of people who belong to completely different religions. Do you think hundreds of millions of Hindus are really unhappy because they are not christians?
The different ways people try and get into life are not always going to be bad to start with. Like anything you try it and it can give you some fulfillment to a greater or lessor extent. Even drugs can make a person happy and high for a while, otherwise they wouldn't take them to begin with and thats the idea to find some happy high to make their life seem a little better. So of course things like religious philosophies and life improvement techniques ect are going to give a person even more benefits that most things. Afterall they are based on keeping healthy and getting in touch with yourself, being kind to others ect all those things that are suppose to bring a person true inner peace and contentment.

But that doesn't mean they are the true path to salvation either. It doesn't mean that just based on these qualities and deeds that Christianity is proven to be the true path as well. But it will at least show that even other religions like Hinduism along with Christianity have something going for them on that basis.. They offer a person an alternative to life that normally will give them a better life that goes beyond the normal world views. In fact there are surveys and stats that show a person that belongs to a religious organization and believes in God will have a better life on average. They will be better off physically, mentally, emotionally and even economically.

But the other point is by being subject to the influences that this world offers and the false hope it has it can leave a person feeling lost and without hope. The expectations are to much for them and things are always changing and being corrupted that it never lasts or truly gives someone a way out and a happy peaceful life. At the moment the world health organization says that a person commits suicide every 40 secs somewhere i this world. Thats not counting all the failed attempts and the massive depression that many are facing. Mental illness is the fastest growing modern problem at the moment and it is going to get worse as the population grows and many more people are living in a world that just doesn't have the answers.
 
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stevevw

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My point is that there are necessary silly rules. You can say that they don't apply for some theological reason, which is fair enough. I just hope people would think about these rules, instead of just assuming they all apply, even though they don't seem to serve any good.
Yes that is the key, to think about it and check them out and see if they do apply. Just because you believe in God doesn't mean you stop thinking. In fact the bible tells us to use our brains and check everything out. The trouble is like any organization and club people get in control and start to add their ideas and personalities start to reign and not the principles and truths. But belief in God through Jesus is not meant to be a big long list of do's and dont;s. Though we have to live a good life its because we have been transformed into a new person and have the spirit of God living in us that we want to do good. So we have a God conscience that is sensitive to doing good and repelling what is sinful. They just both can't live with each other. Its just that some focus on all the little rituals and the things around the fringes and make them more important. To me this is a way of avoiding the truth of giving themselves to God.

Though I'd rather people care about reality TV than to have a very incorrect worldview. Better to love celebrities than be a religious extremist (I know those aren't the only options). :)
Well yes anything extreme like that is no good. But I wouldn't compare those together. That would be more like people getting into crime or drugs or murder and all that. But if you hear some of the stories about what happens to these people they are let down so much. They place all that expectation on something that is unreal and then when they are left with their ordinary lives they feel so down. Its like so high at one point and then dropped into a pit the next. Its all about money and fame and false promises that are not real. Its like anything along those lines like the air brushed models and the perfect Hollywood stars. All that glitters is not gold.
 
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Paradoxum

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Yes that is the key, to think about it and check them out and see if they do apply. Just because you believe in God doesn't mean you stop thinking. In fact the bible tells us to use our brains and check everything out. The trouble is like any organization and club people get in control and start to add their ideas and personalities start to reign and not the principles and truths. But belief in God through Jesus is not meant to be a big long list of do's and dont;s. Though we have to live a good life its because we have been transformed into a new person and have the spirit of God living in us that we want to do good. So we have a God conscience that is sensitive to doing good and repelling what is sinful. They just both can't live with each other. Its just that some focus on all the little rituals and the things around the fringes and make them more important. To me this is a way of avoiding the truth of giving themselves to God.

Sure, but even if you think the Bible says not to do X, but X doesn't seem like it harms anyone, perhaps it's worth considering whether X is really wrong.

Well yes anything extreme like that is no good. But I wouldn't compare those together. That would be more like people getting into crime or drugs or murder and all that. But if you hear some of the stories about what happens to these people they are let down so much. They place all that expectation on something that is unreal and then when they are left with their ordinary lives they feel so down. Its like so high at one point and then dropped into a pit the next. Its all about money and fame and false promises that are not real. Its like anything along those lines like the air brushed models and the perfect Hollywood stars. All that glitters is not gold.

I agree that being obsessed with celebrity isn't good. :thumbsup:
 
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stevevw

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Sure, but even if you think the Bible says not to do X, but X doesn't seem like it harms anyone, perhaps it's worth considering whether X is really wrong.
Well if it is not harming anyone then that is one of the measures for knowing that its ok to do it. But we have to think about if it really doesn't hurt anyone. Someone said once whats wrong with getting smashed at home away from everyone. Nothing at first appearances. But how do you know that if you do that many times that it doesn't eventually affect your judgement and then you do something to affect others. Sometimes we only see the right here and now and dont think ahead and what the possible outcomes can be.

I agree that being obsessed with celebrity isn't good. :thumbsup:
 
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Paradoxum

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Well if it is not harming anyone then that is one of the measures for knowing that its ok to do it. But we have to think about if it really doesn't hurt anyone. Someone said once whats wrong with getting smashed at home away from everyone. Nothing at first appearances. But how do you know that if you do that many times that it doesn't eventually affect your judgement and then you do something to affect others. Sometimes we only see the right here and now and dont think ahead and what the possible outcomes can be.

Well maybe you could hurt someone, but that is pretty much true of any situation... for example driving.

I've been drunk out and at home, and I haven't wanted to stab anyone. :D

So I'd be pretty comfortable with saying that being drunk is acceptable.
 
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stevevw

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Well maybe you could hurt someone, but that is pretty much true of any situation... for example driving.

I've been drunk out and at home, and I haven't wanted to stab anyone. :D

So I'd be pretty comfortable with saying that being drunk is acceptable.
Yeah I know what you Brits are like , I had a chippy in the north of England in Chesterfield Derbyshire. It was opened till 3am and right in the middle of all the pubs and night clubs. But then us Aussies have a pretty good reputation for downing a beer or two or three or four or well you get my drift.
 
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Paradoxum

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Yeah I know what you Brits are like , I had a chippy in the north of England in Chesterfield Derbyshire. It was opened till 3am and right in the middle of all the pubs and night clubs. But then us Aussies have a pretty good reputation for downing a beer or two or three or four or well you get my drift.

Yeah, we drink quite a bit. It's part of our culture I appreciate. :D
 
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stevevw

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Yeah, we drink quite a bit. It's part of our culture I appreciate. :D
There are a lot of pubs in a relatively small area. One on every corner just about. But many have different characters and atmospheres. Some are just like an extention of the locals lounge room and they come to sit down and have a chat. There maybe an open fire place and its very homely. Others maybe a fun bar with the latest tech and sound systems. Some make their own beers and wines and they are different in every town. There is a one mile strip in Chesterfield called the Brampton mile where the challenge is to drink in every pub as a pub crawl. There must be about 20 pubs along the way. It would be a challenge.
 
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Syd the Human

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The different ways people try and get into life are not always going to be bad to start with. Like anything you try it and it can give you some fulfillment to a greater or lessor extent. Even drugs can make a person happy and high for a while, otherwise they wouldn't take them to begin with and thats the idea to find some happy high to make their life seem a little better. So of course things like religious philosophies and life improvement techniques ect are going to give a person even more benefits that most things. Afterall they are based on keeping healthy and getting in touch with yourself, being kind to others ect all those things that are suppose to bring a person true inner peace and contentment.

But that doesn't mean they are the true path to salvation either. It doesn't mean that just based on these qualities and deeds that Christianity is proven to be the true path as well. But it will at least show that even other religions like Hinduism along with Christianity have something going for them on that basis.. They offer a person an alternative to life that normally will give them a better life that goes beyond the normal world views. In fact there are surveys and stats that show a person that belongs to a religious organization and believes in God will have a better life on average. They will be better off physically, mentally, emotionally and even economically.

But the other point is by being subject to the influences that this world offers and the false hope it has it can leave a person feeling lost and without hope. The expectations are to much for them and things are always changing and being corrupted that it never lasts or truly gives someone a way out and a happy peaceful life. At the moment the world health organization says that a person commits suicide every 40 secs somewhere i this world. Thats not counting all the failed attempts and the massive depression that many are facing. Mental illness is the fastest growing modern problem at the moment and it is going to get worse as the population grows and many more people are living in a world that just doesn't have the answers.

At least we agree that the religion a person follows does not matter if a person needs a religion to be happy/fulfilled etc etc.

I am not sure that mental illness is on the rise, so I will have to do some research on my own before I accept that.

A Mental Illness Epidemic? Or Hype Masquerading as Journalism? | World of Psychology

I am not sure that having a religion makes a person happier, so I will have to do some research on my own before I accept that.

Religious believers more depressed than atheists: study - Your Community

I am not saying that you are wrong, I have heard about atheists being happier and religious people being happier. So until I can find multiple reliable studies to confirm one or the other I can't say one or the other is true.

Also, you did not show evidence as to why mental illness is because of people not being religious, so I can't accept that is the reason why. There could be multiple factors completely outside of religion. Or religion could be the cause. Or a whole bunch of other things that I don't know.
 
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Paradoxum

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There are a lot of pubs in a relatively small area. One on every corner just about. But many have different characters and atmospheres. Some are just like an extention of the locals lounge room and they come to sit down and have a chat. There maybe an open fire place and its very homely. Others maybe a fun bar with the latest tech and sound systems. Some make their own beers and wines and they are different in every town. There is a one mile strip in Chesterfield called the Brampton mile where the challenge is to drink in every pub as a pub crawl. There must be about 20 pubs along the way. It would be a challenge.

Yeah, pubs are quite nice. I know some countries don't really have something similar to pubs. Only bars and clubs.
 
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