Forget the Sabbath day, it's no longer Holy... (2)

[from scratch]

What you posted is proof that there was no new Sabbath Commandment issued changing the Sabbath to Sunday right after Jesus died on the cross. Thanks for the affirmation of the validity of the Sabbath in the NT period.

What he posted does not support there being a sabbath requirement in the NT. You can't show one either.

 

[from scratch]

What was posted was a sample of opinion gleaned from early church fathers, and not a proof of anything. It hasn't been a tenet of Christianity that claims a change in the sabbath to Sunday, but rather our redemption from the entire law that codified the sabbath.

This is a conclusion that isn't related to anyone's post. You first need to demonstrate that the sabbath was reinstated after our redemption from the law that contained it. The sabbath isn't a binding ordinance conveyed into the new covenant dispensation at all.

 

[from scratch]

Leviticus establishes a two phased system: sins forgiven in the daily rites (Lev. 4-6) and transferred to the sanctuary then a final blotting out of ALL sins at the end of the year when the sanctuary itself is cleansed (Lev. 16:16, 21).

A righteous person who forsakes the Lord, none of his righteous deeds are remembered (Ezek. 33:13). So a person who forsakes God at the end, all of his sins will count against him. Conversely a sinner who repents at the end, all of his sins are blotted out (Ezek. 33:16). Therefore a record must be kept until the judgement (Dan. 7:9-10; 8:13-14).

The forgiveness of sins in the ritual system was conditional on a person not later forsaking the Lord. This was why the Day of Atonement was so important. To fail here was to be cut off from the congregation (Lev. 23:29).

In Hebrews 9, Christ is presented as being superior to the whole ritual system, both daily and yearly; his sacrifice was once for all in contrast to the repeated annual rite.

In terms of timing, it is clear that the rite was not completed at Calvary because it says of Christ that “he is the mediator” and “now to appear in the presence of God for us” vss. 15, 24. Clearly the rite involved intercession for the people, yet Hebrews presents that as an ongoing work. The eschatological meaning and timing of the rite is not discussed here because it was irrelevant to the context; however a future judgement is spoken of in verses 27-28.

Adventist theologians conclude that Hebrews neither affirms nor denies the concept of a two phased ministry; it simply does not address that issue.

Thus the NC is different from the OC as promised by God through Jeremiah. If it were important or part ofthe process it would have been discussed in Hebrews. It would have reassured the Jews to whom this letter is addressed.

 

[from scratch]

If you accept that NT Christians are to keep the 2 greatest laws referred to in Matthew 22, then you have to accept that all the laws which hang on these two are also still valid.

So tell us why you violate the ten commandments on at least a weekly basis every single week. I would call that willful sin.

 

[VictorC]

Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Sir, Jesus gave us the Commandment to observe HIS HOLY DAY ...It is HIS Day of REST AND BLESSING ...which as much as you would love Sunday to be that day, it is not ...but ONLY THE LORD OF THE SABBATH has Set for us a place a time of HIS rest .. NOT by WORKs of Man, but by HIS GRACE and Mercy ...

This is a portion of what came through when I quoted your post, after removing what I had written. If you would like me to acknowledge other points that you've written, it would be more than helpful (read: necessary) for you to write outside the quotes from other members. I'm simply not going to extract things manually when it should be your burden to identify what you've written as opposed to what you've quoted.

Jesus didn't give us a commandment to observe His holy day (read: Sabbath). What eludes the SDA members of this forum is that the sabbath was a component of the covenant law mediated in the hands of Moses, which was the tablets of stone with the Ten Commandments and the book of the law. The sabbath doesn't exist outside of the old covenant it was conveyed in.

The quote from Hebrews 4:11 is what appears to be your point of contention. Rather than accepting Scripture's call for us to enter into God's rest, you imply that we should instead leave God's rest and return to the sabbath - which as I have mentioned in past posts, didn't provide God's permanent rest, and was only a periodic shadow of the rest that remained to be attained. The sabbath was not God's rest. This is why the context of this passage speaks of another day that remained a promise to be attained by those who already had the sabbath (Hebrews 4:6-8).

In a nutshell, it appears you don't want Christianity. Instead, you preach Judaism as your calling in life, and have slapped the Name of Jesus to conceal your Judaic leanings in Christian terminology. Would you consider this an accurate summary so far?

 

[from scratch]

That is impossible because it implies either:
(i) God did not intend Adam to enter His rest OR
(ii) Adam was created faulty and so could not enter His rest

I think you're requiring something that the Bible doesn't say to fit your belief system. Your argument has no merit and is not Bible based.

 

[VictorC]

The fall isn't even germane to the narrative. Neither is there any evidence that mankind ever rested on the seventh day of creation, and Adam was only one day old on the seventh day.

That is impossible because it implies either:
(i) God did not intend Adam to enter His rest OR
(ii) Adam was created faulty and so could not enter His rest

You had better check the Biblical record instead of precluding that the narrative recorded in Genesis is impossible. This post only reveals your denial of Scripture as an authoritative guide.

Genesis 2
1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.
2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 ¶ This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;
6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.​

Look at the passage, Marc.

Who rested?
It wasn't mankind. This passage specifies that the seventh day was God's rest from His work or creation.

Did this rest ever repeat?
Never.
The seventh day was absolute in terminology, being only one day in an integer procession where it never repeated.

Rejecting Scripture doesn't help gain acceptance around these parts.
You had left a vast ocean of points in the realm of disposal, having not answered nearly anything that was brought to your attention. Hence I will insert a post randomly chosen that awaits your attention:

1. If you believe a shadow ends when the reality comes, how can a shadow exist after the reality is already present?

It doesn't. This is why so many have a problem with you shoving the shadow down our throats when we already have the reality that the shadow directed us to.

2. you said the rest of Hebrews was God's rest, not man's. Yet here you say it points to man's rest.

I don't know where you got that idea. Hebrews 4 addresses a promised rest as a promise to be attained, calls it God's "My rest", and documents its origin by quoting directly from Genesis 2:2.

The conclusion then is that sabbatismos was about man resting in God at Creation, which rest was lost because of the fall and is restored in Christ.

The fall isn't even germane to the narrative. Neither is there any evidence that mankind ever rested on the seventh day of creation, and Adam was only one day old on the seventh day.

It follows that the sabbatismos of Hebrews cannot exclude man, because it is about man resting in God, of which the Sabbath is a symbol.

Hebrews 4:1 counters that notion, when it portrays God's rest as a reality that was not previously attained: "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it." If that promise remained, then it wasn't fulfilled in the sabbath that merely represented it.

Therefore when God rested on the 7th day it could not have excluded man, hence Adam must have kept the Sabbath.

But it eludes you that there was no sabbath on the seventh day. It eludes you that Adam didn't rest, nor did he have any work to rest from. It eludes you that the seventh day of creation was only Adam's second day of life. The conclusion that Adam "must have" done anything comes from a complete vacuum. When you insist on a conclusion you can't provide any evidence for, it reveals a dedication to a fable Scripture doesn't support.

Paul warned Timothy about the tendency some have to turn to fables, and presented it as a charge to preach what Scripture tells us:

2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.​

His narrative reveals a dedication Adventism has in departing from the truth. You simply make up your own premises and write in your own solutions, neither of which are rooted in reality.

 

[from scratch]

If there had been an abolition or change of the Sabbath we would expect some clear statement, yet there is none.

I Corinthiians 16:2 is pretty clear cut to me. Paul also said he told the Galtaian church the same thing in v 1.

The other main verse used to support Sunday is Acts 20:7 which speaks of breaking bread on the 1st day of the week. The problem with this text is that the Jewish day begins at sunset and we know the meeting went on all night and ended at day break when Paul continued his journey.

So you wish to keep time both ways. By the way the Jews kept time it was Sunday even it was what we refer to as Saturday night these days. You are desperately trying to say it was not Sunday the 1st day of the week. To do this you must take the scripture out of context.It is my opinion that you knowingly are promoting a lie for the purpose of deceiving others and yourself (maybe). This clearly shows delusion.

Therefore it was speaking of Saturday evening after sunset, which is the 1st day of the week by Jewish reckoning.

So is it Sunday or is it Saturday? The Bible is not written after the manner in which we divide the days these days. Context does makeadifference. That context is the way time was understood when Acts was written.

It was not a regular type of meeting because it went on all night. And Paul continued his journey on Sunday, showing he did not regard it as a day of rest.

The fact that it was not a regular meeting bears no weight. Any time you have an unannounced or different preacher for a special purpose you would not call it a regular meeting. I just imagine if you had someone of Paul's calibur speaking at your church, his sharing would not stop at noon or there abouts when the official meeting ends. I Corinthiians 16:2 is pretty clear cut to me. Paul also said he told the Galtaian church the same thing in v 1.

 

[from scratch]

If Jesus didn't accomplish all, then the whole law is still binding, according to Matt. 5:17-18. In that case, you have no justification for ignoring the "ceremonial" jots and tittles.

A loud

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Sophia7 If Jesus didn't accomplish all, then the whole law is still binding, according to Matt. 5:17-18. In that case, you have no justification for ignoring the "ceremonial" jots and tittles.

A loud

I agree!
http://www.christianforums.com/t5546846/
How damaging is the Messianic Movement

 

[from scratch]

I agree!
http://www.christianforums.com/t5546846/
How damaging is the Messianic Movement

Nice to see you posting again.

 

[mrasell]

Thus the NC is different from the OC as promised by God through Jeremiah. If it were important or part ofthe process it would have been discussed in Hebrews. It would have reassured the Jews to whom this letter is addressed.

It does not follow that because something is not discussed in a letter it is not true. Each letter had its own context and situation which the author was addressing. In Hebrews the concern is to show that the ritual system, sacrifice, temple and priesthood had ended and that Christ is superior. There is a superior priesthood, sacrifice and temple.

After the vision which included the cleansing of sanctuary, Daniel was told to "shut thou the vision; for it shall be for many days" (Dan. 8:26), and to seal the book till the time of the end when knowledge would be increased (Dan. 12:4). Therefore it is not surprising that it was not explained in the Book of Hebrews.

 

[mrasell]

So tell us why you violate the ten commandments on at least a weekly basis every single week. I would call that willful sin.

Do you have 2 witnesses to back up your claim?

 

[mrasell]

You had better check the Biblical record instead of precluding that the narrative recorded in Genesis is impossible. This post only reveals your denial of Scripture as an authoritative guide.

Your argument is not consistent, does the Sabbatismos include or exclude man?

 

[mrasell]

God’s law reflects his character which does not change (Mal. 3:6; James 1:7):

Jn 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Pr 6:23. For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:


Ps 119:142. Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.


Jn 8:12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


Ro 7:12. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


Le 19:2. Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.


Dt 32:4. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


Lk 18:19. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.


Ps 19:7. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.


Ps 19:8. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.


1 Jn 3:3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


Ps 145:17. The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.


Mt 5:48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Ps 111:7-8. The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.


Is 40:28. Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

God’s word does not change (Ps. 89:34); it is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Ps. 119:105). It guides the lost soul to the way of righteousness leading to God’s eternal city. Not even the fool need err on the highway of holiness (Isa. 35:8).

 

[Sophia7]

God’s law reflects his character which does not change (Mal. 3:6; James 1:7):

Jn 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Pr 6:23. For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:


Ps 119:142. Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.


Jn 8:12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


Ro 7:12. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


Le 19:2. Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.


Dt 32:4. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


Lk 18:19. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.


Ps 19:7. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.


Ps 19:8. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.


1 Jn 3:3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


Ps 145:17. The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.


Mt 5:48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Ps 111:7-8. The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.


Is 40:28. Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

God’s word does not change (Ps. 89:34); it is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Ps. 119:105). It guides the lost soul to the way of righteousness leading to God’s eternal city. Not even the fool need err on the highway of holiness (Isa. 35:8).

Are you applying Jesus' description of Himself as the way, the truth, and the life to the law? If so, you have gone beyond interpreting the law as a reflection of God's character (an idea that is not found in the Bible, by the way); you have elevated the law to the level of God Himself.

 

[Sophia7]

God’s law reflects his character which does not change (Mal. 3:6; James 1:7):

It would be helpful if you would actually quote the texts to which you refer, in context. Here is the context of Malachi 3:6:

1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts.
2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
3 "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.
4 "Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.
5 "Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me," says the LORD of hosts.
6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
7 "From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you," says the LORD of hosts. "But you say, 'How shall we return?' (NASB)​

This passage says nothing about the law as a reflection of God's character. It has to do with the coming of the Messiah and God's covenant faithfulness. Adventists like to quote the first clause of Malachi 3:6, but they often omit the second: "therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The point is that God could have wiped out the "sons of Jacob" long before for their unfaithfulness and disobedience, but He is longsuffering and merciful and even still would have forgiven them had they turned back to Him. He kept His word even though His people didn't, and His steadfastness doesn't change.

Notice, also, that Malachi's references to specific commandments include sorcery, oppressing the wage earner and the widow and orphan, and turning aside the alien--none of which are included in the ten commandments. Malachi does not separate the ten commandments from the rest of the law; neither does he call them a moral law or a reflection of God's character. Your interpretation of verse 6 is not supported by the context of the chapter.

 

[tall73]

God’s law reflects his character which does not change (Mal. 3:6; James 1:7):

Jn 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Pr 6:23. For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:


Ps 119:142. Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.


Jn 8:12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


Ro 7:12. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


Le 19:2. Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.


Dt 32:4. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


Lk 18:19. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.


Ps 19:7. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.


Ps 19:8. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.


1 Jn 3:3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


Ps 145:17. The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.


Mt 5:48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Ps 111:7-8. The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.


Is 40:28. Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

God’s word does not change (Ps. 89:34); it is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Ps. 119:105). It guides the lost soul to the way of righteousness leading to God’s eternal city. Not even the fool need err on the highway of holiness (Isa. 35:8).

Why didn't you reference these?

Rom 8:3 the law is weak through the flesh.

Heb 7:19 the law made nothing perfect

Gal 3:19, the law was added because of transgressions.


I certainly hope you do not apply those to God.

 

[from scratch]

It does not follow that because something is not discussed in a letter it is not true. Each letter had its own context and situation which the author was addressing. In Hebrews the concern is to show that the ritual system, sacrifice, temple and priesthood had ended and that Christ is superior. There is a superior priesthood, sacrifice and temple.

Here you admit to the changing of the law. There goes your jot an tittle argument.

After the vision which included the cleansing of sanctuary, Daniel was told to "shut thou the vision; for it shall be for many days" (Dan. 8:26), and to seal the book till the time of the end when knowledge would be increased (Dan. 12:4). Therefore it is not surprising that it was not explained in the Book of Hebrews.

So what is the book of Hebrews about? I don't think that Daniel is included in the focus of the book. I don't recall cleansing the temple/sancturary being discussed in Hebrews. In fact there is no word or form of the word cleanse or clean in Hebrews.

 

[Sophia7]

God’s law reflects his character which does not change (Mal. 3:6; James 1:7):

Are you sure that James 1:7 is the verse you intended to cite? This is what it says (along with a few surrounding verses for context):

5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
6 But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,
8 being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.​

That says nothing about the law.