Forget the Sabbath day, it's no longer Holy... (2)

[RND]

That's the whole point - I'm saying the sanctification "never" changed...

Ah, conciliation.

...I'm saying that we ( humanity ) were kicked out of that "sanctification".

Really? Why would Jesus say it was made for mankind and why then would God remind the Children of Israel to keep it?

SDA tradition teaches that "God's rest" moved in and out of sanctification...

News to me.

...So that Adam and Eve busted sod and "worked" for 6 days and then participated in a "Sabbath".
...This is an alien teaching from both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

I wonder what day Cain and Abel offered sacrifices to the Lord? Any guess?

A better way to say it would be to quote Jesus....
...When He said that the Sabbath was made for man - man was not made for the Sabbath.
...Remove man and what valid point would there be for even having a sabbath?

Mankind has been around since, since, since...Adam. Obviously God made the sabbath for mankind.

 

[Pythons]

Ah, conciliation.

God's rest was perfect and that state was 'made' for man....
...Man was removed from that rest - the rest didn't change - man was, after sin, no longer associated with that rest.

Really? Why would Jesus say it was made for mankind and why then would God remind the Children of Israel to keep it?

For the same reason God commanded the Children of Israel the other signs specific to them and God....
...God was going to kill Moses over a circumcission issue if I recall correctly.

News to me.
I wonder what day Cain and Abel offered sacrifices to the Lord? Any guess?

Help me out here, what Gregorian day did Cain and Abel offer sacrifice?

Mankind has been around since, since, since...Adam. Obviously God made the sabbath for mankind.

And that Sabbath was to never end - it was intended for man to live in or "keep" forever.

 

[RND]

God's rest was perfect and that state was 'made' for man....
...Man was removed from that rest - the rest didn't change - man was, after sin, no longer associated with that rest.

Well that certainly is a very creative way to deny the sabbath was to be considered holy. But is that what scripture teaches? No, not by a long shot!

Isa 58:13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words: Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

For the same reason God commanded the Children of Israel the other signs specific to them and God....

Weren't they instructed to spread the news of their wonderful and gracious God through His laws, statutes and commandments?

...God was going to kill Moses over a circumcission issue if I recall correctly.

Really? What Bible is that in?

Help me out here, what Gregorian day did Cain and Abel offer sacrifice?

My guess would be that is was Saturday in that the Gregorian change didn't alter days.

And that Sabbath was to never end - it was intended for man to live in or "keep" forever.

Are you abandoning the old, tired "8th day" doctrine Pythons? In Adams day what day came after the 7th? The 8th. What came after the 8th? The 9th. And so on, and so on, and...

Where are we ever told in scripture that the 7th day was a day of perpetuity lasting forever? I thought Ex. 20:8-11 and Deu 5:13-15 were fairly clear.

 

[Pythons]

Well that certainly is a very creative way to deny the sabbath was to be considered holy. But is that what scripture teaches? No, not by a long shot!

That's not how I wanted you to take that - I'm not saying the Sabbath was not to be considered holy for it was...
...To 'the Jews' - it was specifically for them - as was Passover, etc.

Isa 58:13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words: Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

Thou = who God was talking to and that w/out question was the Jewish people...
...Perhaps a Scripture for this might help.

But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

It was for "them" the Jewish people - which is why God 'gave them' the Sabbath.

See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day

Weren't they instructed to spread the news of their wonderful and gracious God through His laws, statutes and commandments?

No.

Really? What Bible is that in?

Luther didn't take that part of your Bible to - did he?

And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

That seems pretty clear to me.

My guess would be that is was Saturday in that the Gregorian change didn't alter days.

Are you abandoning the old, tired "8th day" doctrine Pythons? In Adams day what day came after the 7th? The 8th. What came after the 8th? The 9th. And so on, and so on, and...

Where are we ever told in scripture that the 7th day was a day of perpetuity lasting forever? I thought Ex. 20:8-11 and Deu 5:13-15 were fairly clear.

Guess? I take it that you don't know what day Cain and Able offered gifts then.....
...I don't know either.

 

[RND]

That's not how I wanted you to take that - I'm not saying the Sabbath was not to be considered holy for it was...
...To 'the Jews' - it was specifically for them - as was Passover, etc.

Oh, sorry. I couldn't help seeing that big huge denial of the sabbath.

Thou = who God was talking to and that w/out question was the Jewish people...
...Perhaps a Scripture for this might help.

Funny just a few verses earlier I see Him referring to the sons of the stranger (gentiles-nations).

Isa 56:6 ¶ Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Those that joint themselves to the sabbath....Hmmm!

It was for "them" the Jewish people - which is why God 'gave them' the Sabbath.

Jesus said it was for mankind, not just Jews. Man = Anthropos.

No.

No? Sure they were. Read Deuteronomy 4.

Luther didn't take that part of your Bible to - did he?

No, can't blame it on Luther. The story I see is one of "gentle persuasion.

That seems pretty clear to me.

Was it a warning or a threat?

Guess? I take it that you don't know what day Cain and Able offered gifts then.....
...I don't know either.

Figure of speech. Since the Bible doesn't say we are only left to speculate. My speculation revolves around the sabbath.

 

[Pythons]

Oh, sorry. I couldn't help seeing that big huge denial of the sabbath.

I don't think anyone denies the Sabbath - it's just most folks see it for what it was....
...And don't attempt to pour alien meanings into it that neither Scripture, Judaism or history supports.

Funny just a few verses earlier I see Him referring to the sons of the stranger (gentiles-nations).

Isa 56:6 ¶ Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Those that joint themselves to the sabbath....Hmmm!

As in people who got cut and 'joined themselves to Israel'....
...Became Torah observing Jews.

Jesus said it was for mankind, not just Jews. Man = Anthropos.

It was for 'man' - the rest was intended to NEVER END....
...God created everything that was needed for perfection in 6 days.
...And intended for man to live in His Rest forever.
...Of course it ( the Sabbath ) was for man.

You are convinced it's speaking of a 24 hour period within a 7 day week....
...Which requires, if Adam kept it as you believe, that God's perfection comes and goes.
...That's alien no matter how you slice it.

No? Sure they were. Read Deuteronomy 4.

Verse 37 & 38 pretty much says it all....
...The C.O.I. were a "special people" unto God.
...That He separated out of all the nations of the earth.

The C.O.I. never went up to other nations / people and said hey would you like to join our religion....
...People would come up and ask to join, go via instruction then join.
...that's how it worked.

No, can't blame it on Luther. The story I see is one of "gentle persuasion.

God was on His way to "kill Moses"....
...I'm not seeing gentle there but I do see that circumcission was more important to God then the Sabbath.

Was it a warning or a threat?

Neither, it was a reality - God was going to kill Moses and his wife in some way realizing this QUICKLY cut the kid herself...
...Thus sparing Moses' life.

Figure of speech. Since the Bible doesn't say we are only left to speculate. My speculation revolves around the sabbath.

That only means you can speculate that Cain offered gifts on Saturday...
...That's fair enough - I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[RND]

I don't anyone denies the Sabbath - it's just most folks see it for what it was....
...And don't attempt to pour alien meanings into it that neither Scripture, Judaism or history supports.

Funny you'd say that considering your Cardinals and theologians know that the RCC makes claim that they changed the sabbath based on their authority.

As in people who got cut and 'joined themselves to Israel'....
...Became Torah observing Jews.

What's changed? We still join with the Lord through accepting the Passover Lamb, and being 'cut' - in the heart not the flesh (Romans 2:28-29).

It was for 'man' - the rest was intended to NEVER END....
...God created everything that was needed for perfection in 6 days.
...And intended for man to live in His Rest forever.
...Of course it ( the Sabbath ) was for man.

Wow Pythons this is quite a departure from the normal RCC blather about the "8th" day. I'm impressed! Step back! Of course you understand you have no scripture to stand on with your assertion.

Where was the sanctification of the seventh-day removed?

You are convinced it's speaking of a 24 hour period within a 7 day week....
...Which requires, if Adam kept it as you believe, that God's perfection comes and goes.
...That's alien no matter how you slice it.

Not at all Pythons. There is no record in the Bible to suggest how often God came and communed with Adam and Eve. I'm a firm believer that the day Eve ate was on a sabbath day. We have nothing to document how long Adam and Eve were living in the garden before they fell. It could have been months or even years. We certainly could say they fell on the same same God created the seventh-day but that doesn't seem to fit the narrative.

Anyway it's fun speculation.

Verse 37 & 38 pretty much says it all....
...The C.O.I. were a "special people" unto God.
...That He separated out of all the nations of the earth.

What were the nations supposed to make of this God?

The C.O.I. never went up to other nations / people and said hey would you like to join our religion....
...People would come up and ask to join, go via instruction then join.
...that's how it worked.

In that process were they not obligated to share with people that wanted to join the character and nature of God?

Tell me Pythons if you were to join an organization that was about a God you didn't know how would you gain knowledge of Him? Ask questions perhaps? When one asks a question is not the one that answers a "teacher?"

Surely you see this.

God was on His way to "kill Moses"....
...I'm not seeing gentle there but I do see that circumcission was more important to God then the Sabbath.

In this instance? Yeah, I see the point. Obviously Moses was persauded when he saw the sword. Do you think God intended to use it? In the big picture though the sabbath was certainly important.

Neither, it was a reality - God was going to kill Moses and his wife in some way realizing this QUICKLY cut the kid herself...
...Thus sparing Moses' life.

Sounds like a parent merely getting their child's attention to me. I don't think God was going to kill Moses. God said jump and Zipporah said, "How high."

That only means you can speculate that Cain offered gifts on Saturday...
...That's fair enough - I see nothing wrong with that.

Speculation is all we have. But here's my question. If you see nothing wrong with my assumption why insist then that the "rest" of the sabbath was no longer required of man? Doesn't seem like a consistent argument on your part.

 

[Pythons]

Funny you'd say that considering your Cardinals and theologians know that the RCC makes claim that they changed the sabbath based on their authority.

The only thing that counts is official teaching whereas Catholicism is concerned...
...A theologian or Cardinal may have their view but it's still 'their view'.
...This is what "Romes Challenge" is.

The Council of Trent simply states that the Sabbath Command had both moral and ceremonial aspects to it...
...Therefore the urge people have always had to dedicate some time to the practice of religion is MORAL or Natural.
...And the specific time to set aside is ceremonial.

Do you think that the command to not lie or sleep with another mans wife...
...Is "ceremonial"?

What's changed? We still join with the Lord through accepting the Passover Lamb, and being 'cut' - in the heart not the flesh (Romans 2:28-29).

The Passover Lamb is Christ & being circumcised in the heart is not the penis....
...Therefore that should be reason enough right there that the Sabbath is not observed in the same manner as it once was.
...Did Jesus walk on all fours and have wool?

The Command to keep holy the Sabbath is no different then the command to kill a lamb and roast it on the fire...
...They were both commandments and I doubt you are chasing down sheep come 14 Nisan.
...The Passover is celebrated differently by Christians then by Jews and that applies also to the Sabbath.

Wow Pythons this is quite a departure from the normal RCC blather about the "8th" day. I'm impressed! Step back! Of course you understand you have no scripture to stand on with your assertion.

I listed the Scriptures for you already & they say it wasn't UNTIL after sin that 'work' became known...
...That's the beauty of Catholicism - I can believe anything I want provided it does not go against Church teachings.
...And I assure you that Catholic Church teaching on this subject is that the specific time was ceremonial.

Where was the sanctification of the seventh-day removed?

Again, you are missing my point - point being that MAN was removed from association with the Sabbath ( rest of God )...
...The Sabbath as celebrated at a specific time was ceremonial exactly like the feast of tents, Passover, D.O.A., etc.
...Each of these thing met it's terminus in Christ.

Not at all Pythons. There is no record in the Bible to suggest how often God came and communed with Adam and Eve. I'm a firm believer that the day Eve ate was on a sabbath day. We have nothing to document how long Adam and Eve were living in the garden before they fell. It could have been months or even years. We certainly could say they fell on the same same God created the seventh-day but that doesn't seem to fit the narrative.

Anyway it's fun speculation.

You're right, it is both fun and speculation and as I wasn't there I don't know....
...I do know that's what the Jews have always believed simply because according to them if Adam and Eve could have keept a perfect sabbath.
...None of this sin stuff would have happened.

What were the nations supposed to make of this God?

It's fairly simple from MHO - had the C.O.I. did what God ordered them to do Judaism would have made more of itself then it did...
...Plenty of examples in Scripture where God had to 'soften up' the enemy.
...Because the enemy was greater then the C.O.I.

Had the C.O.I. kept up their end of things they would not have had their noses rubbed in the dirt as much as they did.

In that process were they not obligated to share with people that wanted to join the character and nature of God?

That's just it - the Jews didn't attempt to convert anyone it was the person who came to them....
...They generally attempted to talk them out of it according to their own history.

Tell me Pythons if you were to join an organization that was about a God you didn't know how would you gain knowledge of Him? Ask questions perhaps? When one asks a question is not the one that answers a "teacher?"

Surely you see this.

Most people who accepted Judaism as the valid religion were simply "Noahides"....
...The actual converts into Judaism were tiny.

In this instance? Yeah, I see the point. Obviously Moses was persauded when he saw the sword. Do you think God intended to use it? In the big picture though the sabbath was certainly important.

I'm just saying when one reads Scripture we see things God had other people kill people for doing, such as gathering sticks on the sabbath...
...And we see when God does it Himself.
...Such as Korah and his proto Prot rebellion, touching the Ark and circumcission.
...That's what I mean by it.

Sounds like a parent merely getting their child's attention to me. I don't think God was going to kill Moses. God said jump and Zipporah said, "How high."

It says God was on His way to kill him - Moses was not 'slain from the foundations of the world'...
...Who knows, Moses could have just missed the big K.O. by God.

Speculation is all we have. But here's my question. If you see nothing wrong with my assumption why insist then that the "rest" of the sabbath was no longer required of man? Doesn't seem like a consistent argument on your part.

I don't see that it was impossible that Cain and Able offered sacrifice to God on a Gregorian Saturday...
...Everyday would have been the same to them.

We know Abram was a good guy and he 'pursued' those kings who took Lot captive....
...And that would have taken more then 6 days of travel time.

 

[RND]

The only thing that counts is official teaching whereas Catholicism is concerned...
...A theologian or Cardinal may have their view but it's still 'their view'.
...This is what "Romes Challenge" is.

Where it becomes RCC view is the fact that they do nothing to correct the mistake. The silence is deafening. For example there are a number of "New Age" spiritists in the RCC that believe homosexual sex is A.O.K. and the church comes right out against them.

The Council of Trent simply states that the Sabbath Command had both moral and ceremonial aspects to it...

So do many Protestant confessions.

...Therefore the urge people have always had to dedicate some time to the practice of religion is MORAL or Natural.
...And the specific time to set aside is ceremonial.

Yet the 4th commandment never treats the ceremonial aspect of it.

Do you think that the command to not lie or sleep with another mans wife...
...Is "ceremonial"?

No, not at all. There are no ceremonies of the Ten Commandments. The 8th didn't come with any ceremonies, neither the 10th, or 6th. etc.

The Passover Lamb is Christ & being circumcised in the heart is not the penis....

Right.

...Therefore that should be reason enough right there that the Sabbath is not observed in the same manner as it once was.
...Did Jesus walk on all fours and have wool?

If you could show me where the 4th commandment was a ceremonial law I might bite but alas, you can't.

The Command to keep holy the Sabbath is no different then the command to kill a lamb and roast it on the fire...

Um, sure it is!

...They were both commandments and I doubt you are chasing down sheep come 14 Nisan.
...The Passover is celebrated differently by Christians then by Jews and that applies also to the Sabbath.

Your suggestion is noted but you'd have to say the same thing about the other commandments as well. The Command to not to kill is no different then the command to kill a lamb and roast it on the fire. You position falls flat because it is a ridiculous notion.

Unfortunately you missed my point entirely. Type met anti-type is what I was getting at.

I listed the Scriptures for you already & they say it wasn't UNTIL after sin that 'work' became known...
...That's the beauty of Catholicism - I can believe anything I want provided it does not go against Church teachings.
...And I assure you that Catholic Church teaching on this subject is that the specific time was ceremonial.

If the Catholic Church told you there were little green men on Mars would you believe them? The fact of the matter is you haven't provided any scriptures that answer my question in the OP.

Again, you are missing my point - point being that MAN was removed from association with the Sabbath ( rest of God )...

Um, nowhere does scripture separate mankind from the sabbath.

...The Sabbath as celebrated at a specific time was ceremonial exactly like the feast of tents, Passover, D.O.A., etc.
...Each of these thing met it's terminus in Christ.

The sabbath never was a ceremonial law. It was a specific commandment.

You're right, it is both fun and speculation and as I wasn't there I don't know....
...I do know that's what the Jews have always believed simply because according to them if Adam and Eve could have keept a perfect sabbath.
...None of this sin stuff would have happened.

No doubt.

It's fairly simple from MHO - had the C.O.I. did what God ordered them to do Judaism would have made more of itself then it did...
...Plenty of examples in Scripture where God had to 'soften up' the enemy.
...Because the enemy was greater then the C.O.I.

Yet so many of the nations surrounding took to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob like a duck takes to water.

Had the C.O.I. kept up their end of things they would not have had their noses rubbed in the dirt as much as they did.

So you see that Israel has a mission to teach they nations about God.

That's just it - the Jews didn't attempt to convert anyone it was the person who came to them....
...They generally attempted to talk them out of it according to their own history.

That's no excuse though for not teaching people about the God that brought them out of Egypt with an outstretched arm.

Most people who accepted Judaism as the valid religion were simply "Noahides"....
...The actual converts into Judaism were tiny.

Not so. Many became followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in spite of the failures of Israel.

I'm just saying when one reads Scripture we see things God had other people kill people for doing, such as gathering sticks on the sabbath...

The man was being obstinate and rebellious. God didn't want to have Him put down. His actions were his own doing.

...And we see when God does it Himself.
...Such as Korah and his proto Prot rebellion, touching the Ark and circumcission.
...That's what I mean by it.

Were those really God's actions or were those actions a result of disobedience. Could you imagine what the spirit of the COI would have been like had Korah, Dathan and Abihu lived?

It says God was on His way to kill him - Moses was not 'slain from the foundations of the world'...
...Who knows, Moses could have just missed the big K.O. by God.

I think God was set to, pardon the pun, put the fear of God in Moshe.

I don't see that it was impossible that Cain and Able offered sacrifice to God on a Gregorian Saturday...
...Everyday would have been the same to them.

You mean the sun never set or rose in there day?

We know Abram was a good guy and he 'pursued' those kings who took Lot captive....
...And that would have taken more then 6 days of travel time.

More than 6 days to go from Dan to Damascus? Really? Fairly short trip I think.

 

[Pythons]

Where it becomes RCC view is the fact that they do nothing to correct the mistake. The silence is deafening. For example there are a number of "New Age" spiritists in the RCC that believe homosexual sex is A.O.K. and the church comes right out against them.

Romes Challenge is not wrong, it's simply showing facts....
...In a blunt - more crude then needed way.
...It is still the truth that the early Church had the Authority to do what it did.

So do many Protestant confessions.

They do and given that a few of those systems have a big axe to grind with the R.C.C....
...What does their view on this mean to you, given that fact.

Yet the 4th commandment never treats the ceremonial aspect of it.

A ceremonial commandment does not need itself to be verbally classified as such...
...Anyone can tell it's ceremonial by the way the command was given.

No, not at all. There are no ceremonies of the Ten Commandments. The 8th didn't come with any ceremonies, neither the 10th, or 6th. etc.

That's because those are "moral" or "natural" commandments and it would wrong to break them 24/7 - 365 days a year....
...Is it ever "ok" within the calendar to lie, cheat and steal?

Right.
If you could show me where the 4th commandment was a ceremonial law I might bite but alas, you can't.

"6 days you are to labor" isn't enough for you to realize it's ceremonial?
...6 days you are to NOT steal but on the 7th you can steal.
...If that were the case stealing would be a ceremonial law.
...That's as clear as can be.

Um, sure it is!
Your suggestion is noted but you'd have to say the same thing about the other commandments as well. The Command to not to kill is no different then the command to kill a lamb and roast it on the fire. You position falls flat because it is a ridiculous notion.

How so? A moral command does not need the passage of days to activate it....
...A moral command is active all the time, every day.

Unfortunately you missed my point entirely. Type met anti-type is what I was getting at.

Which is why Jesus said He gives 'rest' - type has already met anti-type.

If the Catholic Church told you there were little green men on Mars would you believe them? The fact of the matter is you haven't provided any scriptures that answer my question in the OP.

I'm not sure what aliens would have to do with Faith and Morals so I'm doubting that the Church would officially say there were such and such creatures on such and such a planet.

Um, nowhere does scripture separate mankind from the sabbath.
The sabbath never was a ceremonial law. It was a specific commandment.

In Genesis it does - Sabbath means "ceasing rest" and Adam and Eve were driven OUT of it...
The weekly Sabbath was ceremonial, the 7th day prior to sin was to be a perpetual STATE - huge difference.

Yet so many of the nations surrounding took to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob like a duck takes to water.

List the 'Nations' that became Jews. And please, don't list Noahides.

So you see that Israel has a mission to teach they nations about God.

By example ONLY unless you know of something I don't you would care to share.

That's no excuse though for not teaching people about the God that brought them out of Egypt with an outstretched arm.

I'm just saying what's in the Scripture and the Jews themselves say about it...
...In this case both agree.

Not so. Many became followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in spite of the failures of Israel.

Well, I would say few unless you can show me where they are or were.

The man was being obstinate and rebellious. God didn't want to have Him put down. His actions were his own doing.
Were those really God's actions or were those actions a result of disobedience. Could you imagine what the spirit of the COI would have been like had Korah, Dathan and Abihu lived?

My point exactly - everyone thinking they can be a priest by self appointment...
...People thinking the Liturgy is not important, etc.
...You can see the logic.

I think God was set to, pardon the pun, put the fear of God in Moshe.

Not going to argue that.

You mean the sun never set or rose in there day?

More than 6 days to go from Dan to Damascus? Really? Fairly short trip I think.

Every day would have been the same as man is not commanded by Nature or Morals to observe one day over another.....
...Abram went well past the point between Dan and Damascus.
...The whole trip from start to Lot was over 175 miles.
...You would NOT be able to do that in 6 days.

 

[RND]

Romes Challenge is not wrong, it's simply showing facts....
...In a blunt - more crude then needed way.
...It is still the truth that the early Church had the Authority to do what it did.

Good to see you changed your tune. Your honesty goes along way. Most Catholics would never, ever concede this point under ANY circumstances.

We differ of course on the idea that the church had "the authority" to change God's law. Frankly you're admission goes along way in proving what Daniel says about the RCC and the Papacy.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

They do and given that a few of those systems have a big axe to grind with the R.C.C....
...What does their view on this mean to you, given that fact.

The four fold nature of the law (moral, civil, health, and ceremonial) is widely known and widely accepted today by many.

This is where the confession of the Baltimore Archdiocese in Rome's Confession in genuine and much appreciated. They are honest. Wrong, but honest. The church has no authority to abrogate God's commandments. Protestants on the other hand are in much denial. The rail against Catholoicism and yet kept "her" day. Protestants work overtime to say they are "sola scriptura" but without the seventh-day sabbath they are barking at the moon!

A ceremonial commandment does not need itself to be verbally classified as such...
...Anyone can tell it's ceremonial by the way the command was given.

I would tend to disagree only in the sense that the ceremonial law detailed in the book of Moshe was quite specific in regards to its application.

The fourth commandment has no ceremonial aspects to it. The ceremonial aspects regarding the morning and evening sacrifices were doubled on the sabbath were detailed in the ceremonial law.

That's because those are "moral" or "natural" commandments and it would wrong to break them 24/7 - 365 days a year....
...Is it ever "ok" within the calendar to lie, cheat and steal?

Certainly not as Paul would say! In the same sense we can't say that the 4th commandments was a ceremonial law just as we can't say that about the other commandments.

"6 days you are to labor" isn't enough for you to realize it's ceremonial?
...6 days you are to NOT steal but on the 7th you can steal.
...If that were the case stealing would be a ceremonial law.
...That's as clear as can be.

"6 days you are to labor" - What was the ceremony surrounding this commandment? "6 days you are to labor" and...?

It's not like PREGGO. It's NOT in there!!

How so? A moral command does not need the passage of days to activate it....
...A moral command is active all the time, every day.

While the passover and 8th commandment are both "laws" they aren't the same type of law. One is a "ceremonial" law the other "moral". The ceremonial are typically referred to as "ordinances."

Which is why Jesus said He gives 'rest' - type has already met anti-type.

The interesting thing here Pythons is you are inferring that Jesus is saying, "I give "sabbath""! Which, if we get out our Strong's we know He was not saying that. It's a common mistake that most Protestants make!

The word is anapano and it means to repose (literally or figuratively (be exempt), remain).

I'm not sure what aliens would have to do with Faith and Morals so I'm doubting that the Church would officially say there were such and such creatures on such and such a planet.

So do I but you never know. JPII said evolution was compatible with the Bible.

In Genesis it does - Sabbath means "ceasing rest" and Adam and Eve were driven OUT of it...
The weekly Sabbath was ceremonial, the 7th day prior to sin was to be a perpetual STATE - huge difference.

Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden. As we earlier discussed after the seventh day came the eight, then the ninth, etc. There is nothing in the Bible narrative that says Adan and Eve weren't cognizant of the sabbath and we can even speculate that Cain and Abel sacrificed on that day.

With the amount of evidence we have for the law being a part of Noah's life, Abraham's life, Jacob's life, etc., its hard to assume that the sabbath was merely ceremonial at any time.

List the 'Nations' that became Jews. And please, don't list Noahides.

Frankly I don't have a list of all the individuals that ate the Passover lamb and that had their "hoody" removed but my guess is it was a substantial number. Caleb for example means "dog" so speculation is that he may have been a gentile. Then there is Uriah. It's assumed he was a convert.

My guess is that a number of men became Israelites. Besides, if God wasn't anticipating this was to happen why did He make a provision for it?

As for nations we know that throughout the Bible narrative that many accepted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Witness Nineveh, or the Ethiopian that was with Phillip, or the centurion that "loved" the Jews and built them a synagogue. There are a number of examples that we can't discount.

By example ONLY unless you know of something I don't you would care to share.

I think Deuteronomy 4 is fairly clear. The nations were to see all the blessings God poured out on Israel and the nations would ask, "what gives...?" and Israel then would educate them on His laws, ordinances and statutes.

I'm just saying what's in the Scripture and the Jews themselves say about it...
...In this case both agree.

God managed to find fault with them for not sharing with others about Him and His great outstretched arm.

Well, I would say few unless you can show me where they are or were.

I wouldn't say a few. Frankly we have no idea what the number may have been.

My point exactly - everyone thinking they can be a priest by self appointment...
...People thinking the Liturgy is not important, etc.
...You can see the logic.

Those dead practices have nothing to do with the indweeling of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure lots of gangsters like Al Capone took the sacraments faithfully only to get absolution to commit more crimes.

Not going to argue that.

Yep.

Every day would have been the same as man is not commanded by Nature or Morals to observe one day over another.....

They noted the passing of time continually and most certainly would have been able to mark each 7th day.

...Abram went well past the point between Dan and Damascus.

He went from Hebron to Damascus to bring back Lot. Not a super long journey

...The whole trip from start to Lot was over 175 miles.

Yeah, for Lot. Not for Abram. Hebron to Damascus is about 140 miles.

...You would NOT be able to do that in 6 days.

I could easily hike 30 miles a day.

 

[Pythons]

Good to see you changed your tune. Your honesty goes along way. Most Catholics would never, ever concede this point under ANY circumstances.

I don't know of any educated Catholics who would deny that the Church has always taught from inception...
...That the Apostles ( who wrote Scripture ) were "CATHOLIC".
...Therefore any Apostolic determination was done via the Catholic Church.

We differ of course on the idea that the church had "the authority" to change God's law. Frankly you're admission goes along way in proving what Daniel says about the RCC and the Papacy.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Prior to Jesus' death He said to do whatsoever the Scribes and Pharisees commanded...
...After Jesus' death He said to listen to the Church.
...Which continued to issue "commandments of Christ".

The four fold nature of the law (moral, civil, health, and ceremonial) is widely known and widely accepted today by many.

The commandment against murder or sleeping with another mans wife....
..Was NEVER ceremonial - it is moral because our nature tells us it is.
..Since man is not commanded by nature to observe one day over another the time is CEREMONIAL.
...There is no way out of this - it's as simple and obvious as the difference between night and day.

This is where the confession of the Baltimore Archdiocese in Rome's Confession in genuine and much appreciated. They are honest. Wrong, but honest. The church has no authority to abrogate God's commandments. Protestants on the other hand are in much denial. The rail against Catholoicism and yet kept "her" day. Protestants work overtime to say they are "sola scriptura" but without the seventh-day sabbath they are barking at the moon!

The same Jews who have assured you that they have kept track of the Sabbath for over 3ooo years....
...Also assure you it ( The Sabbath ) was ONLY for them -that's exactly what the Scripture says.
...So the Prots reject Saturday Sabbath as binding on Christians for that reason and others.
...SDA's should not say to much about Church authority as they built SDAism off the model of Catholicism.
...To a literal "T".

I would tend to disagree only in the sense that the ceremonial law detailed in the book of Moshe was quite specific in regards to its application.

Moral or Natural equates to being commanded by ones nature or morals to observe the commandment.....
...Sacrificing certain animals and setting certain times for worship is ceremonial.
...These are things which require instruction outside of nature.
...I.E. SUPER-natural education.

The fourth commandment has no ceremonial aspects to it.

Then why is there no evidence of ANY other culture aside from Jews observing it?
...When those same cultures can be demonstrated to have laws against stealing, murder, cheating, honoring ones parents, etc.

The ceremonial aspects regarding the morning and evening sacrifices were doubled on the sabbath were detailed in the ceremonial law.

Part of the ceremonial law ( which required super-natural means )...
...That's not natural or moral - not for a long shot.

Certainly not as Paul would say! In the same sense we can't say that the 4th commandments was a ceremonial law just as we can't say that about the other commandments.

As Trent put it the moral or natural urge for people to set aside time for the worship of God is moral and natural....
...The specific time to conduct such worship is 100% ceremonial.

"6 days you are to labor" - What was the ceremony surrounding this commandment? "6 days you are to labor" and...?

It's not like PREGGO. It's NOT in there!!

That more or less says you MUST work 6 days then rest on the 7th.....
...Do you work each and every day counting from 1 - 6 each week?
...Saturday Sabbath was as ceremonial as circumcission.
...Man is not commanded by nature or morals to observe either one.

While the passover and 8th commandment are both "laws" they aren't the same type of law. One is a "ceremonial" law the other "moral". The ceremonial are typically referred to as "ordinances."

An ordinance is simply HOW & in what way one is to observe the commandment....
...Everything God said to do is a Mitzvot ( commandment )

The interesting thing here Pythons is you are inferring that Jesus is saying, "I give "sabbath""! Which, if we get out our Strong's we know He was not saying that. It's a common mistake that most Protestants make!

The word is anapano and it means to repose (literally or figuratively (be exempt), remain).

"Ceasing rest" from acts of creation is the meaning of Sabbath....
...We do not effect our own salvation - Christ did / does - our "work is cooperation with Christ via Grace.
...As in we follow the graces we have been given and are slowly changed from the inside out.
...I can assure you that is the meaning.

So do I but you never know. JPII said evolution was compatible with the Bible.

IHPO it was compatible....
...That is NOT an article of Catholic Faith.
...Catholics are NOT required to believe that to be within Orthodoxy.

Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden. As we earlier discussed after the seventh day came the eight, then the ninth, etc. There is nothing in the Bible narrative that says Adan and Eve weren't cognizant of the sabbath and we can even speculate that Cain and Abel sacrificed on that day.

The Jewish understanding was that they sinned on the very same day they were created....

With the amount of evidence we have for the law being a part of Noah's life, Abraham's life, Jacob's life, etc., its hard to assume that the sabbath was merely ceremonial at any time.

None of those people ever 'observed' the Sabbath....

Frankly I don't have a list of all the individuals that ate the Passover lamb and that had their "hoody" removed but my guess is it was a substantial number. Caleb for example means "dog" so speculation is that he may have been a gentile. Then there is Uriah. It's assumed he was a convert.

My guess is that a number of men became Israelites. Besides, if God wasn't anticipating this was to happen why did He make a provision for it?

It was very few - for a short time in the Roman empire is was popular to become Jewish....
...It was not the norm - most were Noahides - friends of the Jews.
...Who went to synagogue for the reading then went back to work or eating their roated pigs or whatever.

As for nations we know that throughout the Bible narrative that many accepted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Witness Nineveh, or the Ethiopian that was with Phillip, or the centurion that "loved" the Jews and built them a synagogue. There are a number of examples that we can't discount.

Those were Noahides - Other than the Seven Noahide Laws, can a non-Jew observe mitzvahs? - jewish identity non-jews the role of the non-jew

I think Deuteronomy 4 is fairly clear. The nations were to see all the blessings God poured out on Israel and the nations would ask, "what gives...?" and Israel then would educate them on His laws, ordinances and statutes.

Again, Noahides.

God managed to find fault with them for not sharing with others about Him and His great outstretched arm.

As God certainly could find fault with me for not living up to the truth I've been given....
...We are all Jews in this sense I think.

Those dead practices have nothing to do with the indweeling of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure lots of gangsters like Al Capone took the sacraments faithfully only to get absolution to commit more crimes.

That's what I was hoping you would say - the Sabbath is a lunar Liturgy...
...It requires the passing of time to activate and become valid then goes away again.
...Unlike a moral or natural law that is always in force.

He went from Hebron to Damascus to bring back Lot. Not a super long journey



Yeah, for Lot. Not for Abram. Hebron to Damascus is about 140 miles.



I could easily hike 30 miles a day.

Well, I was in the army and failed my initial 27 mile forced road march....
...That was with approx 70lbs of gear and pig ( M60 ) along with my M16.
...I had to do it over again.

That was right at the end of bootcamp when I was in the best shape of my life....
...30 miles a day packing gear for war is NOT a cake walk at all.
...You would have to remind me of that LOL.

 

[Pythons]

From the Catechism of the Council of Trent....
...See 3rd Commandment.

- THE CATECHISM OF TRENT: The Third Commandment

THE THIRD COMMANDMENT: "Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy works; but on the seventh day is the sabbath of the lord thy god; thou shalt do no work on it, neither thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man­servant, nor thy maid­servant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the lord blessed the seventh day and sanctified it."

Reasons For This Commandment

This Commandment of the Law rightly and in due order prescribes the external worship which we owe to God; for it is, as it were, a consequence of the preceding Commandment. For if we sincerely and devoutly worship God, guided by the faith and hope we have in Him, we cannot but honour Him with external worship and thanksgiving. Now since we cannot easily discharge these duties while occupied in worldly affairs, a certain fixed time has been set aside so that it may be conveniently performed.

Importance Of Instruction On This Commandment

The observance of this Commandment is attended with wondrous fruit and advantage. Hence it is of the highest importance for the pastor to use the utmost diligence in its exposition. The word Remembers with which the Commandment commences, must animate him to zeal in this matter; for if the faithful are bound to remember this Commandment, it becomes the duty of the pastor to recall it frequently to their minds in exhortation and instruction.

The importance of its observance for the faithful may be inferred from the consideration that those who carefully comply with it are more easily induced to keep all the other Commandments. For among the other works which are necessary on holydays, the faithful are bound to assemble in the church to hear the Word of God. When they have thus learned the divine justifications, they will be disposed to observe, with their whole heart, the law of the Lord. Hence the sanctification and observance of the Sabbath is very often commanded in Scripture, as may be seen in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and in the prophecies of Isaias, Jeremias," and Ezechiel, all of which contain this precept on the observance of the Sabbath.
Rulers and magistrates should be admonished and exhorted to lend the sanction and support of their authority to the pastors of the Church, particularly in upholding and extending the worship of God, and in commanding obedience to the injunctions of the priests.

How The Third Differs From The Other Commandments

With regard to the exposition of this Commandment, the faithful are carefully to be taught how it agrees with, and how it differs from the others, in order that they may understand why we observe and keep holy not Saturday but Sunday.

The point of difference is evident. The other Commandments of the Decalogue are precepts of the natural law, obligatory at all times and unalterable. Hence, after the abrogation of the Law of Moses, all the Commandments contained in the two tables are observed by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses, but because they are in conformity with nature which dictates obedience to them.

This Commandment about the observance of the Sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfilment, is not fixed and unalterable, but susceptible of change, and belongs not to the moral, but the ceremonial law. Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other. And in fact the Sabbath was kept holy only from the time of the liberation of the people of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh. The observance of the Sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ. Having been, as it were, images which foreshadowed the light and the truth, these ceremonies were to disappear at the coming of that light and truth, which is Jesus Christ. Hence St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Galatians, when reproving the observers of the Mosaic rites, says: You observe days and months and times and years; I am afraid of you lest perhaps I have laboured in vain amongst you. And he writes to the same effect to the Colossians.

So much regarding the difference (between this and the other Commandments) .

How The Third Is Like The Other Commandments

This Commandment is like the others, not in so far as it is a precept of the ceremonial law, but only as it is a natural and moral precept. The worship of God and the practice of religion, which it comprises, have the natural law for their basis. Nature prompts us to give some time to the worship of God. This is demonstrated by the fact that we find among all nations public festivals consecrated to the solemnities of religion and divine worship.
As nature requires some time to be given to necessary functions of the body, to sleep, repose and the like, so she also requires that some time be devoted to the mind, to refresh itself by the contemplation of God. Hence, since some time should be devoted to the worship of the Deity and to the practice of religion, this (Commandment) doubtless forms part of the moral law.

 

[from scratch]

Ah, conciliation.

Really? Why would Jesus say it was made for mankind and why then would God remind the Children of Israel to keep it?

Ya got that a wackbards don't ya guess? God took how many years to reveal that the Sabbath was made for man. Isn't that a tad cruel?

News to me.
I wonder what day Cain and Abel offered sacrifices to the Lord? Any guess?

Any guess is mere speculation as Doc Sam B said in his book about the Sabbath.

Mankind has been around since, since, since...Adam. Obviously God made the sabbath for mankind.

The first part is a very startling revelation. And the second part was not revealed for some 4,000 years.

 

[from scratch]

Well that certainly is a very creative way to deny the sabbath was to be considered holy. But is that what scripture teaches? No, not by a long shot!

Isa 58:13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words: Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].



Weren't they instructed to spread the news of their wonderful and gracious God through His laws, statutes and commandments?

Really? What Bible is that in?

Must not be in the Clear Word, huh. Its in my off the shelf Bible. In fact it is in everyone of my 9 Bbible versions. I read em.

My guess would be that is was Saturday in that the Gregorian change didn't alter days.

That is correct your only guessing. Speculation is the same thing.

Are you abandoning the old, tired "8th day" doctrine Pythons? In Adams day what day came after the 7th? The 8th. What came after the 8th? The 9th. And so on, and so on, and...

Where are we ever told in scripture that the 7th day was a day of perpetuity lasting forever? I thought Ex. 20:8-11 and Deu 5:13-15 were fairly clear.

 

[from scratch]

Oh, sorry. I couldn't help seeing that big huge denial of the sabbath.



Funny just a few verses earlier I see Him referring to the sons of the stranger (gentiles-nations).

Isa 56:6 ¶ Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Those that joint themselves to the sabbath....Hmmm!

You seem to have missed the highlighted part of the verse which makes them a stranger no more. The only way this is done is by joining the covenant through circumcision of the flesh - Ex 12:48.

Jesus said it was for mankind, not just Jews. Man = Anthropos.

So who was the anthropos Jesus was addressing? The Isrealite/Jews who asked the question He was answering.

Figure of speech. Since the Bible doesn't say we are only left to speculate. My speculation revolves around the sabbath.

Ah built on speculation. Can't hardly believe my eyes. Bet more of you stuff is speculation too.

 

[Pythons]

I thought I would provide some more examples of the difference of ceremonial laws AKA Commandments.

Exodus 34: 11
Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.


12Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

18The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

19All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

20But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

21Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

22And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

23Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

24For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

25Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

26The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

27And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The Ten Commandments were simply a "souvenir" of the Law....
...The souvenir or tablets said to honor God and the texts which followed that commanded HOW exactly to honor God.

Within the law were "commandments" which were moral or natural to humanity such as not stealing, murder, etc....
...& there were commandments which required supernatural instruction such as WHAT day the Jewish people were to keep holy, first fruits, 1st males born, etc.
...Man is not commanded by nature to observe Saturday over any other day.
...Therefore the Saturday Sabbath was ceremonial and not moral.

Instead of making the case in the above way "Romes Challenge" rubbed the Prots noses in it by making a case of Apostolic Authority....
...Such as "the Church" determined Sunday would be the day for Christian worship.
...The argument goes since the Catholic Church is what produced the Canon of Scripture and nothing in the Old Testament speaks of a change.
...Why do the Prots NOT continue to worship on Saturday?

If a prot accepts the authority of Scripture ( especially New Testament Scripture ) then they are by default paying homage to the Catholic Church.....
...The same goes for going to Church on Sunday.
...Of course the author of Romes Challenge firmly believed the Apostles were ALL Catholic.
...Therefore the early Church was also Catholic and when the Apostles met to break bread on the 1st day of the week that's the Catholic Church right there.

Hope that helps.

 

[RND]

YouTube - Is Sunday Sabbath? part 1

YouTube - Is Sunday Sabbath? part 2

YouTube - Is Sunday Sabbath part 3

 

[RND]

YouTube - Sabbath Truth Justified part 1

YouTube - Sabbath Truth Justified part 2

YouTube - Sabbath Truth Justified part 3

 

[from scratch]

Good to see you changed your tune. Your honesty goes along way. Most Catholics would never, ever concede this point under ANY circumstances.

We differ of course on the idea that the church had "the authority" to change God's law. Frankly you're admission goes along way in proving what Daniel says about the RCC and the Papacy.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The four fold nature of the law (moral, civil, health, and ceremonial) is widely known and widely accepted today by many.

You need to identify the many.

This is where the confession of the Baltimore Archdiocese in Rome's Confession in genuine and much appreciated. They are honest. Wrong, but honest. The church has no authority to abrogate God's commandments. Protestants on the other hand are in much denial. The rail against Catholoicism and yet kept "her" day. Protestants work overtime to say they are "sola scriptura" but without the seventh-day sabbath they are barking at the moon!

In the case of the law they haven't unless of course you are lawless - I Tim 1:9, 10. The law is not in effect for the righteous (Christian). Now who's barking at the moon? In the day time your even barking at a tree with no squirrel.

I would tend to disagree only in the sense that the ceremonial law detailed in the book of Moshe was quite specific in regards to its application.

The fourth commandment has no ceremonial aspects to it. The ceremonial aspects regarding the morning and evening sacrifices were doubled on the sabbath were detailed in the ceremonial law.

Would you care to explain what worship is, especially since you think that is part of, no even the keeping of the Sabbath?

Certainly not as Paul would say! In the same sense we can't say that the 4th commandments was a ceremonial law just as we can't say that about the other commandments.

"6 days you are to labor" - What was the ceremony surrounding this commandment? "6 days you are to labor" and...?

Ah another part of the Sabbath. Did you got to work today to earn a living? If not did you sin?

It's not like PREGGO. It's NOT in there!!

While the passover and 8th commandment are both "laws" they aren't the same type of law. One is a "ceremonial" law the other "moral". The ceremonial are typically referred to as "ordinances."

That doesn't matter. God said will you not keep My laws? I don't read this as excluding any. How do you? Of course I make that statement from your POV.

The interesting thing here Pythons is you are inferring that Jesus is saying, "I give "sabbath""! Which, if we get out our Strong's we know He was not saying that. It's a common mistake that most Protestants make!

Oh my but your funny! Aren't you a Protestant and making the same mistake?

The word is anapano and it means to repose (literally or figuratively (be exempt), remain).

So do I but you never know. JPII said evolution was compatible with the Bible.

Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden. As we earlier discussed after the seventh day came the eight, then the ninth, etc. There is nothing in the Bible narrative that says Adan and Eve weren't cognizant of the sabbath and we can even speculate that Cain and Abel sacrificed on that day.

With the amount of evidence we have for the law being a part of Noah's life, Abraham's life, Jacob's life, etc., its hard to assume that the sabbath was merely ceremonial at any time.

The problemyou have is that the ten commandments were not a part of any of those people's lives.

Frankly I don't have a list of all the individuals that ate the Passover lamb and that had their "hoody" removed but my guess is it was a substantial number. Caleb for example means "dog" so speculation is that he may have been a gentile. Then there is Uriah. It's assumed he was a convert.

And they were as one of the covenant - Ex 12:48.

Yeah, for Lot. Not for Abram. Hebron to Damascus is about 140 miles.

I could easily hike 30 miles a day.

On flat land with no burden of weight on flat ground maybe. In the desert no way! I am a hiker.