Forget the Sabbath day, it's no longer Holy... (2)

[Sophia7]

Matthew 5:17-19

Perhaps it would be a good idea to quote that passage rather than citing it. Then you can demonstrate your contention that Jesus didn't fulfill the law concerning Himself. This doesn't support your claim that Jesus said the "moral" law was eternal.

I'll save him the trouble of looking it up:

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

Jesus didn't say, "The moral law is eternal." He referred to the whole law and the prophets. As has been pointed out many times before, in the sermon on the mount (the context of the above verses), Jesus addressed several other commandments of the law besides the ten. Aren't you teaching that some of the jots and tittles have passed away, Rasell? If the law is still binding, the whole thing has to be still binding, not the "moral" components separated from the "ceremonial" components.

 

[from scratch]

Although the ceremonial days are not required, that is not to say Christians cannot celebrate Easter or Harvest Festival in a Christian way. There is nothing wrong with that, but we don't have to do that.

The controversy in Colossians were people saying something like, we must keep Easter to become more holy, and those who don't are not good Christians.

Nope the Judaizers were saying you must keep the laws of Moses. Read Acts 15. If you need more read aslo Romans and Galatians.

The weekly Sabbath is in a completely different category being part of the 10 commandments, ordained from the Creation. We can no more break the Sabbath than commit murder, without sinning. Because sin is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4.

So why do you break - defile the sabbath every week. I am speaking from the ten commandments alone. If you need to ask what I am talking about you really don't understand the plain words of the commandment.

Many Christians are not fully aware of the Sabbath truth at present, but the time is coming when all will know and have to make a choice - either for the papal Sabbath or God's Sabbath.

The RCC didn't change the sabbath from Saturday (Venerable day of Saturn) to Sunday. The first pope was in 538 according to your church. Loadicea was in 364 and no one from Rome was present there.

 

[tall73]

There are problem in exporting an expression from one context to another, as the author may be using it with different meaning. As Paul qualified his expression with the term "shadow" and as the context was about keeping parts of the ritual law to be justified, and as Jesus said the moral law is eternal, its clear Paul did not intend his statement to be applied to the weekly Sabbath, as none of the 10 commandments are shadows but eternal moral laws. His readers would have understood what he meant.

A. There are problems with ignoring the OT which Paul was referencing.

B. You have not showed Jesus stating "the moral law" anything. Please reference the text. And in Matthew 5 Jesus pointed to more than the 10.

C. You have not shown that the 10 are styled eternal moral laws from the Bible either.

 

[from scratch]

The Sabbath is moral in that we show our allegience to our Creator and Re-Creator. It is also a sign that God sanctifies us. We show our loyalty to God by keeping His laws. And we are a part of spiritual Israel. Isaiah 56:4-6 mentions righteous Gentiles keeping the Sabbath.

To break the Sabbath is to break all the commandments (acc. to James), and so is disloyalty to Jehovah. The question is, will we be loyal to the papacy and its Sabbath or God and His Sabbath?

If a Gentile (stranger) joins themselvesto the covenant they aren't a stranger any longer. So your Isaiah reference doen'tsupport your thesis. There is no such thing as spiritual Isreal and circumcision is worthless.

 

[from scratch]

I agree with you that the Sabbath has no end, it is an eternal type.

And Jesus is and provides that rest Mat 11:28-30.

 

[from scratch]

Matthew 5:17-19

Scripture swap time. Hebrews 7:12.

 

[from scratch]

Indeed, Israel had a moral command to keep ALL the law, not just the ten. So how does that make the 10 commandments an enduring moral law?

I am not Saul. Nor am I the nation of Israel.

In fact Israel had to keep the sabbath above all according to Ex. 31, since it was a sign WITH THEM.

 

[from scratch]

Deut. 29:29 tells us to focus on what God has revealed rather than what He has not.

You might do very well to heed those words. Jesus didn't say keep the sabbath anywhere.

Hebrews speaks of what Jesus has accomplished, as well as what he is accomplishing by his continual intercession on the basis of what he accomplished on the cross (Heb. 7:25; 9:24).

 

[from scratch]

I'll save him the trouble of looking it up:

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
​

Jesus didn't say, "The moral law is eternal." He referred to the whole law and the prophets. As has been pointed out many times before, in the sermon on the mount (the context of the above verses), Jesus addressed several other commandments of the law besides the ten. Aren't you teaching that some of the jots and tittles have passed away, Rasell? If the law is still binding, the whole thing has to be still binding, not the "moral" components separated from the "ceremonial" components.

And good point!

 

[from scratch]

Where did the apostles say that?

How about I Cor 16:1-4 and Rev 1:10 for easy starters.

 

[from scratch]

None of the early church fathers of the 2nd century claimed that Jesus or the apostles had changed the Sabbath.

There is no recorded change in the NT from Sabbath to Sunday. When Sunday keeping began in the 2nd century, it was not seen as a replacement for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not abandonded till about the 6th century because of anti semitism and an influx of pagan sun worshippers.

The schism between the RCC and Orthodox church over the Sabbath fast, showed that neither side at that time regarded Sabbath as obsolete. The RCC said people had to fast on Sabbath, the Orthodox church rejected this.

To demand a statement that we're to observe Sunday as a holy day shows a lack of faith. You're reliant on a command to the flesh.

 

[from scratch]

The NAS, Darby are most accuarate as it does not say "for sins" but "of sins", and the ancient manuscripts omit "our".

So do you now deny Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was for our sins?

If Hebrews had wanted to say our sins were forgiven at the cross, he could have said "for our sins", but instead he says, "of sins".

So when are our sins forgiven? It seemsthat you're saying we aren't redeemed.

This verse is then clarified by what follows, the once for all sacrifice, and the continual intercession (Heb. 7:25; 9:24).

This is stated as a done deal and not a continual process.

The cross made provision for the forgiveness of sins which is applied by Christ as High Priest when a person confesses.

Ah, it happens, when you say? At the time of confession? I thought so and agree.

 

[nahtino]

But Paul said the OT was but a shadow of what was to come and so we cant judge based on them.

I would suggest you go re-read this statement and then check your facts ...If you truely believe this then two things

1. You have an idea, but no understanding of the WORD of GOD
2. you are lost in your misunderstanding ...

To sit and suggest that the OLD Testement is non relevant and holds nothing for the Believer in Christ is nothing short of Falacy/Doctrine of Devils ...

At best I can say , you statement is partly right, in that there are few certain things that are 'done away with'/ no longer hold validity nor TRUTH

nameley the Sacrificial system for Sins and the Earthly Sanctuary ...and ultimatly the Temple in Jerusalem where in these practices were done, but only as a TYPE to the REAL/Genuine...

Now if you are going to jump to the conclusion that I just said the 10 Commandments were / are done away with ..no longer binding I would urge you to think/read again and open and study your BIBLE...

The New Testement reflects the Old Testement ... thus the New Testement cannot be something totaly diffrent nor alien to the OLD and vice versa ...

----------------------------------------------------

I didnt say to break the Ten.
Dont forget the Apostles made the day of celebrating the Lord was on the Lord's Day - Sunday - the Day He rose.

What Apostles are these? Theres a LOT of 'Apostles' gospels and letters found out there, that are NOT in the BIBLE ...
You have heard of the Gospel of Thomas, Judas, Mary, other spurious dogdy Gnostic, Esoteric etc etc findings that extol great virtue and wisdom of (a) god other than the GOD/JESUS of the BIBLE ...
-----------------------------------------------------

Now, if you admit there are moral principles in other parts of the law besides the 10, let's reverse the question.

Why could there not be a ceremonial law IN the 10?

Sir .. the answer is simple ...NO

Tha Sabbath is not a temporary, ceremonial day ...its a COMMANDMENT of GOD himself ... who by the way is the very JESUS Christ whom you worship...

ALL the 10 Commandments were GIVEN to ISrael, please dont try and make as if you can pick and choose what suits you ..

I want you to know that ISRAEL is ONE WHO WRESTLES WITH GOD, and prevailes. That is, those who choose GOD/Jesus

So thats ultimately those who are called by HIS NAME ... NOT those of and by relation nor geographical position ... its about the HEART of MAN ACCEPTING THE TRUTH OF GOD ALMIGHTY ...
-------------------------------------------

The Sabbath is a memorial. A memorial is not an inherently moral principle.
Sir, I realy wonder if you would have said that on MOUNT SINAE ...
Sir, this is a COMMANDMENT OF GOD TO KEEP/REMEMBER/OBSERVE THE HOLY SABBATH DAY ... Do you not go to church on sunday in the hope that it is pleasing and obediant to GOD?

As you say, isnt then SUNDAY observance...a memorial to the ressurection? But has GOD/JESUS ever told you to observe Sunday..?

You have not explained how the Sabbath is "moral" other than to say it is in the 10. But the ten are no where stated to be all "moral" laws.

Your opinion and rationalisation

And even among the 10 commandments God singled out one commandment, the fourth, for a special purpose. He singles it out as a SIGN between Israel and God.

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


In the middle of universally recognized moral regulations there is a sign with Israel that is a memorial and a covenant between God and the people of Israel. You have not explained how this "sign" and this "covenant" is a moral regulation.

I like how you say ...regulation other wel meaning christians say "Are we still OBLIGATED to keep the 10 commandments ...but anyway ...

Mate, I suggest you go get your Bible, go to you room, sit with a notepad and read the 10 commandments ...read each of the TEN and while you do that, I want you to reflect on each COMMANDMENT and seek the Lord to give you understanding as to why he commmanded US to obey them ...

Jesus only ever claims to have ONE HOLY Day, and that is the SABBATH Day

Mark 2:28

Didache

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day. But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."

This is an Apostolic Constitution written by the Apostles, in their day. It just wasn't added into the canon by the Church at the council.
It is not gnostic, but genuine.

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).
The English translation used.

Mate, short story, the DIDACHE is a fake/fraud ....and it CONTRADICTS GOD on BAPTISM as well as his HOLY Day ...

IF people can say they were given the true gospel, yet it contradicts the Tradition, of which the Didache is part of, and written by the Apostles, and yet unknown by most outside the Church - then how is the claim genuine if being remiss of this Apostolic Constitution the Church kept out of canon, and yet all say they keep the Gospels pure, without regard to all of what the Apostles gave us?

Thats the old story of how the apostles supposedly somewhere along the way wrote secret things ...to certain people , becuase of new revelation and insight ...and somehow they didnt quite get it into the BIBLE .. but its TRADITION ...
there is NO SUCH THING ...Tradition holds NO weight .. ALL Jesus gave was in harmony and reflected from the BIBLE ..

 

[tall73]

Sir .. the answer is simple ...NO

Tha Sabbath is not a temporary, ceremonial day ...its a COMMANDMENT of GOD himself ... who by the way is the very JESUS Christ whom you worship...

The Day of Atonement was a commandment too.

ALL the 10 Commandments were GIVEN to ISrael, please dont try and make as if you can pick and choose what suits you ..

I am not picking and choosing. I am not keeping the law given to Israel. The fruit of the Spirit has some overlap however.

I want you to know that ISRAEL is ONE WHO WRESTLES WITH GOD, and prevailes. That is, those who choose GOD/Jesus

So thats ultimately those who are called by HIS NAME ... NOT those of and by relation nor geographical position ... its about the HEART of MAN ACCEPTING THE TRUTH OF GOD ALMIGHTY ...

The truth of God was expressed by the council of Acts 15 that stated the gentiles do not have to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

 

[tall73]

The Sabbath is a memorial. A memorial is not an inherently moral principle.

Sir, I realy wonder if you would have said that on MOUNT SINAE ...
Sir, this is a COMMANDMENT OF GOD TO KEEP/REMEMBER/OBSERVE THE HOLY SABBATH DAY ... Do you not go to church on sunday in the hope that it is pleasing and obediant to GOD?

No, I do not. He didn't command Sunday worship.

Now to answer you question, no a memorial is not INHERENTLY moral. Why did I use the word INHERENTLY? Because no one doubts that any of the commands given by God were moral for those who received them.


You were cut off from the people for not keeping passover, the Day of Atonement etc., just as you were the sabbath. So of course it was moral to them.

But gentiles are not them. And there were not so bound by the council.

But gentiles are to bear fruit of the Spirit and abandon works of the flesh.

As you say, isnt then SUNDAY observance...a memorial to the ressurection? But has GOD/JESUS ever told you to observe Sunday..?

You have me confused with someone else. I never said God commanded Sunday. Nor do I "keep" Sunday. Sunday is not a new sabbath.


God said not to judge regarding observance of feasts, new moons, and sabbaths. So I don't judge on it. If you want to keep them, great. If you don't, great.

 

[tall73]

You have not explained how the Sabbath is "moral" other than to say it is in the 10. But the ten are no where stated to be all "moral" laws.

Your opinion and rationalisation

Is it? Then you can show it easily by posting the text that says they are all "moral" laws.

 

[tall73]

And even among the 10 commandments God singled out one commandment, the fourth, for a special purpose. He singles it out as a SIGN between Israel and God.

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


In the middle of universally recognized moral regulations there is a sign with Israel that is a memorial and a covenant between God and the people of Israel. You have not explained how this "sign" and this "covenant" is a moral regulation.

I like how you say ...regulation other wel meaning christians say "Are we still OBLIGATED to keep the 10 commandments ...but anyway ...


Mate, I suggest you go get your Bible, go to you room, sit with a notepad and read the 10 commandments ...read each of the TEN and while you do that, I want you to reflect on each COMMANDMENT and seek the Lord to give you understanding as to why he commmanded US to obey them ...

Thanks I have. You know, I wasn't a slave in Egypt. And I don't have a land inheritance in Israel that will be preserved.

I suggest you get a Bible and go read Acts 15 and understand why The Holy Spirit did not command gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

Jesus only ever claims to have ONE HOLY Day, and that is the SABBATH Day

Mark 2:28

Are you suggesting Jesus didn't keep the feasts?

 

[from scratch]

What Apostles are these? Theres a LOT of 'Apostles' gospels and letters found out there, that are NOT in the BIBLE ...
You have heard of the Gospel of Thomas, Judas, Mary, other spurious dogdy Gnostic, Esoteric etc etc findings that extol great virtue and wisdom of (a) god other than the GOD/JESUS of the BIBLE ...
-----------------------------------------------------




Mate, short story, the DIDACHE is a fake/fraud ....and it CONTRADICTS GOD on BAPTISM as well as his HOLY Day ...



Thats the old story of how the apostles supposedly somewhere along the way wrote secret things ...to certain people , becuase of new revelation and insight ...and somehow they didnt quite get it into the BIBLE .. but its TRADITION ...
there is NO SUCH THING ...Tradition holds NO weight .. ALL Jesus gave was in harmony and reflected from the BIBLE ..

Ya get and A+ for zeal and emotion. Now you just need to do some serious Bible study to go with it.

 

[CatholoicCrusader]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Forget the Sabbath day, it's no longer Holy..."

I am not a Jew, and I don't observe ritualisitic Saturday Rites. I worship on the Lord's Day, the firtst day of the week

 

[nahtino]

Ya get and A+ for zeal and emotion. Now you just need to do some serious Bible study to go with it.

Is the Didache in the Bible? If so, WHICH apostle wrote it ..?

Thanks I have. You know, I wasn't a slave in Egypt. And I don't have a land inheritance in Israel that will be preserved.

I suggest you get a Bible and go read Acts 15 and understand why The Holy Spirit did not command gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

1. Were you in The Garden of Eden then?
Where YOU anywhere in the Bible...?
If you werent and are not in Sinai, then that means you are not a follower of any of the 10 commandments then ...Therefore you must be open to using the Lords name in vain then ...

--------------------------------------
now you push Acts 15 like its some sort of Gentile Credo to live without Law and boundry, thus undoing the whole Bible and the sound council of GOD.

The Judgement and conclusion of Acts 15 is that

* Abstainance from thigns polluted by Idols
* Sexual immorality
* Things strangled and from Blood

Thats basically what Acts 15 is about .. particularly Acts 15:20-21

2. Does Act 15 speak/conclude on/about the Fruit of the Spirit?

3. Does Acts 15 wipe out the laws of Killing self and others...Coveting, Blaspheming God and his name, Having other Gods, Honouring your parents, keeping the Sabbath Holy , Lying ..?

----------------------------------------------------------------

No, I do not. He didn't command Sunday worship.

Thank you ... I am sure you found this out from reading your Bible did you not?
Now, there are many christians out there who will argue that Jesus did exactly that...That he told them, outside the Bible to keep his ressurection day as the Time of Gathering ...

So unfortunatly your in disagrement with them and not me on this point ...

I hope you see clearly that Sunday Observance or the belief that Sunday is something from the mouth of GOD as faulty
--------------------------------

Now to answer you question, no a memorial is not INHERENTLY moral. Why did I use the word INHERENTLY? Because no one doubts that any of the commands given by God were moral for those who received them.
--------------------------------------------
My friend, with in the 10 , God gave this COMMANDMENT, instruction, directive to HIS PEOPLE, to REMEMBER HIS HOLY day HE had set up BlESSED and made HOLY ...
Do you not go to Church ( whenever you do) to worship GOD .. at a set time? Are you saying even then there is NOTHING INHERENTLY MORAL about that?

--------------------------------------------------
But gentiles are to bear fruit of the Spirit and abandon works of the flesh.

how do you know that it is WRONG TO LIE ? if your going to tell me the Holy Spirit convicts you, then I must ask,Does the Holy Spirit contradict the Law of God...Can he do that ?
--------------------------------------------------
You have me confused with someone else. I never said God commanded Sunday. Nor do I "keep" Sunday. Sunday is not a new sabbath.

Confusion ...Babylon ....never the less as much as you can deny ...You still go to church on Sunday for some reason dont you ...

be it , tradition ...because everyone goes there on Sunday... awesome worship ...maybe your just not working on the day ...but go to any good sunday school lesson and hear the Sunday school teacher teach the kids that it is good and right to worship God on Sunday as it is the LORDS Day .. becuase Jesus said so ..

even if you may justify on this forum like its just anyday to you ...with no meaning, You could gather and worshp GOD on Thursday, having the service rest and all, like its sunday..but you know fulll well that you hold Sunday as the only proper day of God...

Ask 100 christians which day is Gods day they will point to Sunday being his day, many would even state that it is the Christian Sabbath ( even some church doctrinal teachings will clearly state this ..)

But that would be the Base reason ...even if it is not in th bible, NOR a commandment, nor a directive , even a tip/suggestion of Jesus/Bible to do so ...

---------------------------
I am not picking and choosing. I am not keeping the law given to Israel. The fruit of the Spirit has some overlap however.

Can you explain to me what the fruit of the spirit is ...The Lord did not say the Fruit of the spirit will replace the law ...

Ok, rather tell me how Justification, sanctification and glorification fit into this ..
and how the Law and grace interact ...

and thus once one recieves the Holy spirit, what is the diffrence between its gifts and fruits
-------------------------------------------
The truth of God was expressed by the council of Acts 15 that stated the gentiles do not have to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses

can I get a qoute on the Bolded part ...

Amen and Amen