Forget the Sabbath day, it's no longer Holy... (2)

[WarriorAngel]

Did you post this in the correct thread?

Basing it on the Lord's Day [Sunday] vs Sabbath, yes i believe so.
Thanks for asking.

 

[tall73]

I think we are dealing with a list and not a descripttion of the same item. It makes no sense to list the same thing more than once in any list. Really each item in the list is represented by different words in all languages. Why wouldn't the Day of Atonement be included in the yearly aspect of the list? Are you suggesting it is because the Day of Atonemnet is not a festival. I guess there was no celebration when they felt God accepted the sacrifice of Atonement when the high priest came out of the Holy of holies.

a. I agree it is a list.

b. Things would not be listed more than once in the list I am speaking of.


1. feasts-three pilgrim feats, passover, tabernacles, pentecost
2. newmoons.
3. sabbaths-Day of Atonement, trumpets and weekly sabbath.

c. When you ask "why wouldn't the Day of Atonement be included in the yearly aspect of the list?" you are already assuming that the list is yearly, monthly weekly. That does not appear to be the case when looking at OT parallels.

There are feasts. There are sabbaths, and there are new moons.

d. Tradition suggests there was celebration after the cleansing on the Day of Atonement. But the day is considered a solemn occasion overall, and it is never called a "chag", one of the more festive feasts. It is however, along with all the others, a "moed."


Take a look again at this text, as it spells out what comprises the "feast" category.

2Ch 8:13 ...the Sabbaths, the new moons, and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Booths.

There is not a weekly, monthly, yearly progression here. Instead the sabbaths are separate from the three pilgrim feasts.

And the specific feasts included are spelled out, removing any ambiguity.

 

[from scratch]

Basing it on the Lord's Day [Sunday] vs Sabbath, yes i believe so.
Thanks for asking.

Musta missed something or having a senior moment. I'll look at it again.

 

[from scratch]

a. I agree it is a list.

b. Things would not be listed more than once in the list I am speaking of.


1. feasts-three pilgrim feats, passover, tabernacles, pentecost
2. newmoons.
3. sabbaths-Day of Atonement, trumpets and weekly sabbath.

c. When you ask "why wouldn't the Day of Atonement be included in the yearly aspect of the list?" you are already assuming that the list is yearly, monthly weekly. That does not appear to be the case when looking at OT parallels.

There are feasts. There are sabbaths, and there are new moons.

d. Tradition suggests there was celebration after the cleansing on the Day of Atonement. But the day is considered a solemn occasion overall, and it is never called a "chag", one of the more festive feasts. It is however, along with all the others, a "moed."


Take a look again at this text, as it spells out what comprises the "feast" category.

2Ch 8:13 ...the Sabbaths, the new moons, and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks, and the Feast of Booths.

There is not a weekly, monthly, yearly progression here. Instead the sabbaths are separate from the three pilgrim feasts.

And the specific feasts included are spelled out, removing any ambiguity.

OK my study Bible has notes on the Feast of Trumpets. That is as good a reason that I can muster at the moment for me thinkg it was an annual feast.

I consent that the Day of Atonement may not be considered a feast. It is an annual event.

I also don't think of the Day of Atonement as a sabbath because it is annual and is not part of the ten commandments. I do consent that it is a special day if not a feast and different from the general understanding of the sabbath. IOW a holy convocation - an annual solomn occasion. The KJV has left me thinking that by the use of holydays.

I don't mean to be arguing with you over this. Just merely expressing what I understand.

I do thank you for your explaination to my question. You have been very helpful. I gather that the weekly sabbath is included in Col 2:16 and Hosea 2:11. The thread agrument is really about the weekly sabbath as I understand things.

 

[Frogster]

Musta missed something or having a senior moment. I'll look at it again.

u don't sound like a senior?

 

[tall73]

OK my study Bible has notes on the Feast of Trumpets. That is as good a reason that I can muster at the moment for me thinkg it was an annual feast.

Since two different Hebrew terms are often rendered into English as "feast" it is a feast in that sense.

It is one of the "moed" or appointed times. Moed is translated "feast" in the King James in Lev. 23. All of the annual events spelled out in Lev. 23 come under the general heading of "moed", or appoitned times.

KJV Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.


Other versions get the idea of "appointed times" instead of feasts for "moed".

NASB Lev 23:2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, '(A)The LORD'S appointed times which you shall (B)proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these


The word "chag" on the other hand seems to be applied in a more limited fashion.

I also don't think of the Day of Atonement as a sabbath because it is annual and is not part of the ten commandments.

The Day of Atonement is stated to be a sabbath.

ESV Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath."

KJV Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.


NASB Lev 23:32 "It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath."

The trumpets are also designated as a sabbath in the KJV, though the word appears to be a slightly different cognate, and is rendered as a rest in some translations. I haven't looked too much at the term. It might be an interesting study.

Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.



The weekly sabbath itself was A sabbath--a day of rest. The word is derived from the word for rest. And when first introducing the topic in Ex. 16 it is introduced in that way.

Exo 16:23 he said to them, "This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.'"

It was a sabbath. The article is not used, it is indefinite. The specific sabbath, the weekly sabbath, is part of a larger category of days of rests, or sabbaths.

Today we think of "the sabbath". But the weekly sabbath was a specific application of the sabbath idea. And so was the Day of Atonement. Both were "a" sabbath.

I do thank you for your explaination to my question. You have been very helpful. I gather that the weekly sabbath is included in Col 2:16 and Hosea 2:11. The thread agrument is really about the weekly sabbath as I understand things.

I agree that the issue is whether the weekly sabbath is included, and I agree it is.

I don't feel we are arguing, just comparing notes. There is a lot of material and I am sure we are all missing some points along the way. So it helps to compare views and see which better fits.



The idea that the Day of Atonement is a "sabbath" is also another argument against the weekly sabbath being something other than "ceremonial."

The Sabbath, like the Day of Atonement, was a sabbath of rest.

The Sabbath like the passover was a memorial.

The Sabbath like the Day of Atonement and the passover had sacrificial requirements.


The weekly sabbath in this way is similar to the other appointed times. But it was set apart as a sign with Israel, in the middle of their covenant document. In that sense it was to be obeyed above all, and in Ezekiel we seem to see the sabbath violations as a special sign of disobedience and covenant breaking, which resulted in their deportation.

 

[from scratch]

Since two different Hebrew terms are often rendered into English as "feast" it is a feast in that sense.

It is one of the "moed" or appointed times. Moed is translated "feast" in the King James in Lev. 23. All of the annual events spelled out in Lev. 23 come under the general heading of "moed", or appoitned times.

KJV Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.


Other versions get the idea of "appointed times" instead of feasts for "moed".

NASB Lev 23:2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, '(A)The LORD'S appointed times which you shall (B)proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these


The word "chag" on the other hand seems to be applied in a more limited fashion.


The Day of Atonement is stated to be a sabbath.

ESV Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath."

KJV Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.


NASB Lev 23:32 "It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath."

The trumpets are also designated as a sabbath in the KJV, though the word appears to be a slightly different cognate, and is rendered as a rest in some translations. I haven't looked too much at the term. It might be an interesting study.

Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.



The weekly sabbath itself was A sabbath--a day of rest. The word is derived from the word for rest. And when first introducing the topic in Ex. 16 it is introduced in that way.

Exo 16:23 he said to them, "This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.'"

It was a sabbath. The article is not used, it is indefinite. The specific sabbath, the weekly sabbath, is part of a larger category of days of rests, or sabbaths.

Today we think of "the sabbath". But the weekly sabbath was a specific application of the sabbath idea. And so was the Day of Atonement. Both were "a" sabbath.






I agree that the issue is whether the weekly sabbath is included, and I agree it is.

I don't feel we are arguing, just comparing notes. There is a lot of material and I am sure we are all missing some points along the way. So it helps to compare views and see which better fits.



The idea that the Day of Atonement is a "sabbath" is also another argument against the weekly sabbath being something other than "ceremonial."

The Sabbath, like the Day of Atonement, was a sabbath of rest.

The Sabbath like the passover was a memorial.

The Sabbath like the Day of Atonement and the passover had sacrificial requirements.


The weekly sabbath in this way is similar to the other appointed times. But it was set apart as a sign with Israel, in the middle of their covenant document. In that sense it was to be obeyed above all, and in Ezekiel we seem to see the sabbath violations as a special sign of disobedience and covenant breaking, which resulted in their deportation.

I appreaciate very much how you have shown the weekly sabbath to be included along with some other sabbaths in Col 2:16. I still wonder why most SDA folks here at CF argue that it is not.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Musta missed something or having a senior moment. I'll look at it again.

Given the purpose of the Title of the thread, i was trying to keep it on topic.
Also, there are a few preceding posts that help get to the post you quoted.
Thanks.

 

[tall73]

In the Greek verse 16 has no definite article, it can be translated "a sabbath day" or "sabbath days".
These refer to the ceremonial Sabbaths, such as Passover, Day of Atonement which required animal sacrifices and hence were shadows.

You already were forced to mutate your own argument in light of the fact that the weekly sabbath is also "a" sabbath, and is seen without the article.

So that does not show what you hope.


The Old Testament parallels show that when the sabbaths were listed the weekly sabbath was included.

 

[tall73]

None of this gives us a license to break the 10 commandments, to commit murder, adultery, idolatry etc. Christ never taught such a gospel. Where did Christ say we can break the commandments?

And no one here preached that we can murder, commit adultery etc., either.

This has already been addressed, but you keep stating the same thing, misrepresenting the position of people in the debate.


Galatians 5 speaks of life in the Spirit, as opposed to walking after the flesh. We already showed how that means the gentiles were not to murder, commit adultery, etc.


You are arguing against a straw man that no one is advocating.

But you are also ignoring the evidence already provided that the sabbath was "ceremonial".

A. It had sacrifices like the Day of Atonement, passover, feast of booths, etc.
B. It was a memorial like the Passover
C. It was "a sabbath" like the Day of Atonement.


Now contrast that with "thou shalt not steal"

Can you tell us what the prescribed regular sacrifice was for "thou shalt not steal" in the law of Moses on a periodic basis?
What was "thou shalt not steal" a memorial of?
Was "thou shalt not steal a sabbath?"

And was "thou shalt not steal" a "sign" between God and the nation of Israel?

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"

 

[from scratch]

You already were forced to mutate your own argument in light of the fact that the weekly sabbath is also "a" sabbath, and is seen without the article.

So that does not show what you hope.


The Old Testament parallels show that when the sabbaths were listed the weekly sabbath was included.

Good point.Thanks!

 

[from scratch]

And no one here preached that we can murder, commit adultery etc., either.

This has already been addressed, but you keep stating the same thing, misrepresenting the position of people in the debate.


Galatians 5 speaks of life in the Spirit, as opposed to walking after the flesh. We already showed how that means the gentiles were not to murder, commit adultery, etc.


You are arguing against a straw man that no one is advocating.

But you are also ignoring the evidence already provided that the sabbath was "ceremonial".

A. It had sacrifices like the Day of Atonement, passover, feast of booths, etc.
B. It was a memorial like the Passover
C. It was "a sabbath" like the Day of Atonement.


Now contrast that with "thou shalt not steal"

Can you tell us what the prescribed regular sacrifice was for "thou shalt not steal" in the law of Moses on a periodic basis?
What was "thou shalt not steal" a memorial of?
Was thou shalt not steal a sabbath?

And was "thou shalt not steal" a "sign" between God and the nation of Israel?

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.

Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"

Well done!

 

[mrasell]

Dont forget the Apostles made the day of celebrating the Lord was on the Lord's Day - Sunday - the Day He rose.

Where did the apostles say that?

 

[mrasell]

The Sabbath is a memorial. A memorial is not an inherently moral principle.

God told Saul to wait for one week for the prophet to come but he got impatient and offered the sacrifice. Clearly when God commands something, even time, it is a moral principle.

If God tells you to do something on a specific day, and you choose to do it another day, there is a moral principle.

Lev. 19:3 links the 4th and 5th commandments:
"Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God."

(the term "my sabbaths" is used for the weekly Sabbath - see Isa. 56:4-6)

 

[mrasell]

Some? What about you?

Deut. 29:29 tells us to focus on what God has revealed rather than what He has not.

Moreover, part of the superiority is that it shows what Jesus ALREADY accomplished past tense. That is part of the reason for the author urging them not to abandon this better fulfillment. Jesus had already sat down at God's right hand.

Hebrews speaks of what Jesus has accomplished, as well as what he is accomplishing by his continual intercession on the basis of what he accomplished on the cross (Heb. 7:25; 9:24).

 

[mrasell]

Didache

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day. But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."

This is an Apostolic Constitution written by the Apostles, in their day. It just wasn't added into the canon by the Church at the council.
It is not gnostic, but genuine.

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).
The English translation used.

None of the early church fathers of the 2nd century claimed that Jesus or the apostles had changed the Sabbath.

There is no recorded change in the NT from Sabbath to Sunday. When Sunday keeping began in the 2nd century, it was not seen as a replacement for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not abandonded till about the 6th century because of anti semitism and an influx of pagan sun worshippers.

The schism between the RCC and Orthodox church over the Sabbath fast, showed that neither side at that time regarded Sabbath as obsolete. The RCC said people had to fast on Sabbath, the Orthodox church rejected this.

 

[mrasell]

Heb 1:3b After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Greek: καθαρισμον των αμαρτιων ποιησαμενος εκαθισεν εν δεξια της μεγαλωσυνης εν υψηλοις

ESV-After making purification for sins, he sat
KJV-when he had by himself purged our sins, sat
NIV-After he had provided purification for sins, he sat
NAS-When He had made purification of sins, He sat
Darby-having made [by himself] the purification of sins, set himself down
Holman-After making purification for sins, He sat
Young's Literal- having made a cleansing of our sins, sat
RSV-When he had made purification for sins, he sat

The NAS, Darby are most accuarate as it does not say "for sins" but "of sins", and the ancient manuscripts omit "our".

If Hebrews had wanted to say our sins were forgiven at the cross, he could have said "for our sins", but instead he says, "of sins".

This verse is then clarified by what follows, the once for all sacrifice, and the continual intercession (Heb. 7:25; 9:24).

The cross made provision for the forgiveness of sins which is applied by Christ as High Priest when a person confesses.

Otherwise there would be no need for confession of sin.

 

[mrasell]

The Old Testament parallels show that when the sabbaths were listed the weekly sabbath was included.

There are problem in exporting an expression from one context to another, as the author may be using it with different meaning. As Paul qualified his expression with the term "shadow" and as the context was about keeping parts of the ritual law to be justified, and as Jesus said the moral law is eternal, its clear Paul did not intend his statement to be applied to the weekly Sabbath, as none of the 10 commandments are shadows but eternal moral laws. His readers would have understood what he meant.

 

[mrasell]

The weekly Sabbath began in Eden (Gen. 2:2-3) and is part of the eternal moral law which cannot be divided (James 2:10-11).

 

[mrasell]

Its clear that the ceremonial sabbaths ended at the cross because they were shadows, requiring animal sacrifices.

The same cannot be said of the Sabbath because it originated before the fall when there were no animal sacrifices and was intended to last as long as the earth lasted.