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For Your Information - Hunt Exposes Calvinism

Ormly

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But you are simply throwing the baby out with the bath water, not caring whether what they taught was actually truth. To point to their anti-semitism as a reason to discount everything they taught makes no sense whatsoever.

Everything they taught? Did I say that or are we reading from you a mis-represention of my words?

You treat my words like a 5th grader. You know what I mean. Positionally we stand without sin before God. Practically we still sin daily, unless you're telling me that you are completely free from committing sin?
Stand in sin?? What does that mean? I don't stand in sin. I am seated with Christ Jesus in Heavenly places, how is it you say I stand in sin? I am learning to be faithful in Christ. I can only do that if I am in His presence to see things from His perspective and then the test comes to see how well I am doining. I am born again with the Nature of God in me that was also in Jesus. How 'bout you?

This is true. And I would say Calvin and Luther's teachings on Soteriology, including depravity, election, atonement, grace, perseverance, etc. are truth.
But it ain't in the Bible unless you screw up scriptures to make it all agree with them. It is not the other way round, ergo, Calvin and Luther commentary is the gospel. Fess up! You know that is the truth. Now where do we go?

I don't place my trust in any man. I just think they were right in what they taught about the bible.
And I say you do and yet you don't get your understanding from the Bible. You have demonstrated that fact. BTW and FWIW I read Luther. Try Gerhard O. Ford's book on "Being a Theologian of the Cross". It is a reflection on Luther's Heidelberg disputation of 1518. Great book! Guaranteed, you will see yourself in his mirror.

...And here comes the heretical teachings. I know you won't come out and say them for fear of being suspended from the forum.;)
What heretical teaching do you speak of you believe I wish to teach? Son-ship? Joint-heir-ship? Where is that heretical speak?
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Everything they taught? Did I say that or are we reading from you a mis-represention of my words?

I never said you said it, I was making a point. You can't disregard all of their teachings because of one thing you disagree with. Therefore your point is null.

Stand in sin?? What does that mean? I don't stand in sin. I am seated with Christ Jesus in Heavenly places, how is it you say I stand in sin?

Talk about a misrepresentation. I specifically said that we stand without sin before Christ. I never said anything about standing in sin.

I am learning to be faithful in Christ. I can only do that if I am in His presence to see things from His perspective and then the test comes to see how well I am doining. I am born again with the Nature of God in me that was also in Jesus. How 'bout you?

I am born again as you say, however, the old man still drags along.

But it ain't in the Bible unless you screw up scriptures to make it all agree with them. It is not the other way round, ergo, Calvin and Luther commentary is the gospel. Fess up! You know that is the truth. Now where do we go?

lol. fess us? As if I am secretly hiding that I know I am wrong, but I am just refusing to confess.

ha!

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The "born again" here is not a physical birth, but a spiritual birth. Necessarily it must follow, that the seeing is a spiritual seeing. I think it's clear that Jesus is stating that unless one be regenerated, he cannot even see the kingdom, let alone what to do about it. This is just one verse, and yet most of Calvinism is taught here.

Depravity - man cannot see without being born again
Election - being "born again" is being "born from above" - it must be a sovereign choosing of God who is to be born again
Grace - those who are born again do not birth themselves, it is a birth from above; a birth of God, bestowed on certain individuals not based on their own actions, but of God's choosing.
Perseverance - If God does the birthing, how can I "unbirth" myself?

And I say you do and yet you don't get your understanding from the Bible. You have demonstrated that fact. BTW and FWIW I read Luther. Try Gerhard O. Ford's book on "Being a Theologian of the Cross". It is a reflection on Luther's Heidelberg disputation of 1518. Great book! Guaranteed, you will see yourself in his mirror.

Okay sure, just looked it up on Amazon and looks like a good book.

What heretical teaching do you speak of you believe I wish to teach? Son-ship? Joint-heir-ship? Where is that heretical speak?

Yup, here we go.

Rom 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 
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Ormly

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I never said you said it, I was making a point. You can't disregard all of their teachings because of one thing you disagree with. Therefore your point is null.

Lets go no further until this cleared up.

You did accuse me of saying it.

2. Again, I never said I disregard ALL their teachings. I even gave you the title to a book of Luther.

Hence my point stands. You have mis-represented my words. Fess up.

As to you saying we stand in sin daily, I mis-read it. I see that and apologize however, the rest of your poat "smells".
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Lets go no further until this cleared up.

You did accuse me of saying it.

lol. Ormly, I have had conversations with you before, and I know that you are not a Calvinist. While there are obviously certain elemental things you agree with them (and I) on, I know you do not regard the Calvinist system as being even close to what Scripture teaches, since you are a Semi-Pelagian.

Your point in bringing up their anti-semitism was to discredit them as being reliable. That is clear. If that wasn't your point, then please fill me in. If it was, then I am right with my original quote:

But you are simply throwing the baby out with the bath water, not caring whether what they taught was actually truth. To point to their anti-semitism as a reason to discount everything they taught makes no sense whatsoever.

You are obviously taking issue with the fact that I used the word "everything". And I will grant that to you, although I think it rather obvious that I did not mean "every minute detail", but that I meant the system in which they both proposed.

2. Again, I never said I disregard ALL their teachings. I even gave you the title to a book of Luther.

Hence my point stands. You have mis-represented my words. Fess up.

I have not. You tried writing off their teachings by a single wrong view of theirs-

Do you know they were both Jew haters? Why place your eggs in their basket?

As to you saying we stand in sin daily, I mis-read it. I see that and apologize however, the rest of your poat "smells".

And that's what I figured -

1) you misread
2) you'd leave a nasty comment
 
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Ormly

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lol. Ormly, I have had conversations with you before, and I know that you are not a Calvinist. While there are obviously certain elemental things you agree with them (and I) on, I know you do not regard the Calvinist system as being even close to what Scripture teaches, since you are a Semi-Pelagian.

Your point in bringing up their anti-semitism was to discredit them as being reliable. That is clear. If that wasn't your point, then please fill me in. If it was, then I am right with my original quote:

What is clear is that I gave you a caution, nothing more.

You are obviously taking issue with the fact that I used the word "everything". And I will grant that to you, although I think it rather obvious that I did not mean "every minute detail", but that I meant the system in which they both proposed.

Yes. Words mean something and if I didn't pick that word up from you we would be chasing rabbits.

"Again, I never said I disregard "ALL their teachings". I even gave you the title to a book of Luther.
Hence my point stands. You have mis-represented my words."

I have not. You tried writing off their teachings by a single wrong view of theirs-

Nope.Your above quote speaks of it. And I never wrote them off with that remark. I was clear on that also.

Be that as it is, permit me to ask this: If a person is born again should there not be a change in his disposition?
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Did I write in such way that I believed you did? Relax. . . and it is not a trick question.

I'm relaxed, I don't easily get mad, no matter how you are interpreting my words... however this is leading somewhere.

What do believe the disposition should reflect and how do you believe it is to be sustained?

Well the change itself will reflect Christ, not perfectly, but others will see Christ when they see us. We are being conformed to the image of Jesus through knowledge, understanding, obedience, etc. These things are bestowed upon us as blessings from God. He is the one who strengthens us, teaches us, keeps us from stumbling, etc.

The sustaining comes from constant reliance upon God (reading the Scriptures, prayer, communion, etc.). However these things are brought about by the Spirit's prompting. There is a both/and here, which is why sanctification is entitled a synergistic work according to reformed theology. God and man both work together in man's progression of conformity to the image of Christ.
 
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Ormly

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I'm relaxed, I don't easily get mad, no matter how you are interpreting my words... however this is leading somewhere.

It is, to be sure. Just be honest and not to second guess anything. It is important.

Well the change itself will reflect Christ, not perfectly, but others will see Christ when they see us. We are being conformed to the image of Jesus through knowledge, understanding, obedience, etc. These things are bestowed upon us as blessings from God. He is the one who strengthens us, teaches us, keeps us from stumbling, etc.

OK. I believe I read correctly and can rightly assume that if anything goes wrong in the program, it has to be God's fault, correct?

The sustaining comes from constant reliance upon God (reading the Scriptures, prayer, communion, etc.). However these things are brought about by the Spirit's prompting. There is a both/and here, which is why sanctification is entitled a synergistic work according to reformed theology. God and man both work together in man's progression of conformity to the image of Christ.

Suppose you don't feel the Spirit's prompting, what do you do? And of course if He isn't prompting, are you sure you should do anything?
 
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And this is the real kicker, you completely ignore verse 3



1Pe 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,

Your answer exposes your lack of understanding.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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OK. I believe I read correctly and can rightly assume that if anything goes wrong in the program, it has to be God's fault, correct?

I said it was synergistic.

Suppose you don't feel the Spirit's prompting, what do you do? And of course if He isn't prompting, are you sure you should do anything?

If we have the Spirit then He is prompting. We can either ignore His prompting or follow Him. To a certain extent all Christians obey the prompting of the Spirit, yet some are more obedient than others. This is the difference between maturity/immaturity. All Christians, yes.
 
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If God gifts you with faith is it not yours or is it your neighbors. He is the author of our faith. He is also the prefector of our faith. So where does that leave us in all this but the recipients of this wonderful work of God.

The gift in the redemptive process is Grace, Adoption, Salvation, Justification, and Glorification. All this as a result of our, your, their, his, or her faith in God's Grace:

Man's faith in Christ is not a work. This is one of the fundamental flaws of Calvinistic Theology.

Note the following:


The Process of Salvation

Regeneration and the language of “SALVATION”, how is one saved, or “what must I do to be saved” according to Scripture.

What does regeneration mean? New birth

The Greek word for regeneration is only found in two N. T. passages, Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. This regeneration will take place at the beginning of the millennial kingdom, and speaks about change in the earth as Christ rules and reigns in Jerusalem.If you do not hold to this view of the end times and believe in only a second coming then eternity this verse would apply to that position too for it is a solid verse that points to the time of the second coming regardless of eschatology. What we are establishing here is that this particular regeneration is not associated with the new birth of a lost person, salvation in Christ.

According to Titus 3:5 salvation is by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. We know that regeneration means new birth. If we only had this verse that addressed salvation we could conclude that faith is not necessary in the process, but that is not the case.

Titus 3: 5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit;

2 Thessalonians 2:13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Thessalonians further defines the salvation of a person. Notice that the person saved is describe as someone chosen from a beginning. Wherever you place the beginning is not the important point in this verse, but the process. If you see “beginning” as prior to creation or within creation the beginning is not the truth being expressed by this verse, salvation is the central teaching of the verse. Titus 3:5 tells us salvation is by the washing of regeneration and renewing and 2 Thess. 2:13 salvation is by sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth. Now we have a broader understanding of the salvation of people. The Holy Spirit regenerates, renews and sanctifies unto salvation by faith in the truth. This would be the clear conclusion of these two verses. Briefly, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us what Titus 3:5 assumes the readers understands, salvation is through or by sanctification by the Spirit and (by) faith in the truth.

1. Salvation is by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5
2 Salvation is by sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, 2 Thess. 2:13

Also, it can be concluded that “He saved us …..by the washing of regeneration (new birth) and renewing by the Holy Spirit” which is synonymous with “God has chosen you …for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit”, not to exclude “and (by) faith in the truth.” The point here is that regeneration, renewing and sanctification are descriptions of what new birth is. When a person is saved he is regenerated, renewed and sanctified. They all happen at the same time and are the “elements” of true conversion.

Read carefully Acts 26:16:

Acts 26:16. 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you (PAUL) a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17. rescuing you from the {Jewish} people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, (Paul) 18. to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. Paul is witnessing to people about the gospel and all the benefits that are given to the one believing is by faith in Christ.

We know from:
1. Salvation is by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit Titus 3:5
2 Salvation is by sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, 2 Thess. 2:13

Therefore Acts 26:16, 17 and 18 is telling us that Paul is responsible to witness to the Gentiles and in doing so by his witness for Christ to open their eyes so that they may turn form sin and receive forgiveness of sins and be sanctified by faith in Christ. We know that salvation is described as regeneration, renewing and sanctification by the Spirit all by faith in the truth. Acts 26:16 clearly tells us that forgiveness of sins and an inheritance (equivalent to salvation) belongs to those who by faith in Christ are sanctified. This agrees with Titus 3:5 and 2 Thess. 2:13. Therefore we now have three verses that teach salvation is by faith and this salvation experience is described as regeneration, renewing and sanctification, and now forgiveness of sins and an inheritance. To say it another way one’s faith in “Me” Christ results in regeneration, renewing, sanctification, forgiveness of sins, and an inheritance, again all this by faith in Christ.
 
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Ormly

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I said it was synergistic.

Whoa! What part is mine? You wrote God does it all by Himself. I ask, does what all if not also keeping me? obviously He doesn't do it all, right? He only provides salvation by His grace. We must believe the account, correct?

If we have the Spirit then He is prompting. We can either ignore His prompting or follow Him. To a certain extent all Christians obey the prompting of the Spirit, yet some are more obedient than others. This is the difference between maturity/immaturity. All Christians, yes.

In your theology, how would one even know what spirit is doing the prompting, the Holy Spirit, a satanic one or your own, yet not brought into line with the knowledge of the intention of God? Do you know what the intention of God is for man, once redeemed and brought into Jesus Christ?
 
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Does repetition increase the validity of an argument?

I am sending you, (Paul) 18. to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritanceamong thosewho have been sanctified by faith in Me.

If God had intended for us to believe the Calvinist model of election then the verse would have used the word WILL. Also, if the verse were to have been recorded from God as "Will" and not "May" then the verse would have taught that all who Paul preached to would come to Christ. We know that is not true for preaching Christ is an offer of Grace predicated up on "They May Turn" not they will turn.
 
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