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No, the "all" refers directly to mankind. Zeus and Buddha are not mentioned in Scripture, that I'm aware of.
Please clarify your statement by listing the verses you believe have nothing to do with salvation. Thanks in advance!
It is a hell of a life, but life it is and there is nothing one can do about it. We are but clay in the hands of the Potter. You have two choices, even though you think not. You were specifically created to have that choice. Both "free" will and hell might be mythical for you, but Scripture clearly portrays both quite vividly. Show me that hell does not exist? Show me that man does not have a will, independent of God's will?
Does clay have choices?
Clay has free will? Why does Scripture compare us to clay, then? Clay with a will doesn't really need a Potter, now, does it?
The very term "hell" was not in the original texts. Therefore, Scripture doesn't talk about hell (as it's generally understood... endless torment by devils with pitchforks, mile-high walls of fire, bad pizza, etc.).
No problem. Here are some verses that show who is in the driver's seat in the Will department:
Because God made the Vessel. He can make that Vessel any way He desires. That He sovereignly created us with His Image, including a will among other things is His choice, not ours. It is ours to use as He desires us to use it but God cannot compel you to use it a certain way. He can work to influence you just as much as Satan can influence you. Neither one can force you to do Their will. It is YOUR will that selects, chooses.
Hell is but a word. That man in eternity will be spiritually separated from God is manifest throughout, OT and NT. It will be for an eternity, timeless.
These all deal with the providence of God. We as humans can do this to our fellow man just as easily. God's providence does not injury the will of man. The fact that man is able to plan his way, but is directed give credence to the fact that man does indeed have a will.
this is the sine qua non text that shows that man has a will independent of God's will. God cannot do the will of man, but must work in man so that man does His will. Man is surely free to ignore God's will which is quite manifest in scripture and in reality.
this is another text which shows the clear cooperation between God and man. God's grace with man's will. Man cannot do anything apart from God, even the fact that man can reject God is part of His sovereign plan to have man freely choose whether he will abide in Christ or apart from Him.
Again, free will of man is at work. Man must choose to live by the truth or reject that truth. But man does neither without the grace of God. It is a synergistic, cooperative effort of the salvation of ones soul.
But only AFTER man has freely believed and has become one of the chosen, the elect. God, by His foreordained will predestined that those that believe would be conformed to His Image. But man also can leave that working out at any time in his life. God and Adam were doing just this very thing when Adam chose to leave the communion with God.
Just because a text has the word "will" in it and it refers to God's will does not mean man lacks a will. For the same reason Christ saved mankind from death. Man has absolutely nothing to do with the fact the God decided to save the world through Christ. It has much more purpose in that God is Sovereign and was not willing that Satan share in His power and glory by permitting Satan to rule this world through the power of death. In that sense man is incidental, but man is also a creature created as part of this world, who bears God's Very Image. God was not specifically willing to permit man to be dissolved through death.
I would assume you are even less than a novice since you can give nothing compelling to refute it. Making an assertion does not say anything. Clearly you really don't understand what Christ accomplished on the Cross.
And many who thought they were will hear those words, I never knew you.
I can assure you that we are thousands of miles apart. I am far off target to your interpretation of Scripture. But you have not shown a single piece of evidence that what I am saying has NOT been the Gospel for 2000 years unchanged, consistant through two millinnia. You have but your own opinion which will die with you. Protestant versions are in the thousands, all claiming the a personal version the same as you are. Hardly the Gospel once given.
I can agree with you there. That is the missionary Gospel, but maturing that faith takes much, much more. It is a life to be LIVED IN Christ. It is OUR obligation as creatures in His Image, it is fulfilling the mandate for which we were created and why Christ saved mankind.
I see what you're saying, however it would still be inaccurate for Scripture to refer to Him as the Savior of all if only some are saved.
You read the Bible, right? You realize that the gospel went out to the gentiles, all of whom were heathens with different gods, right? Those heathens looked to those different gods for salvation, didn't they? Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 4 was that Christ (the living God) was the savior of the world. They couldn't look to anyone else for salvation. It was a restatement of Christ from John when he said, "I am the way ........... no man cometh to the Father but by me".
I'm pointing out that if you read the scripture with the emphasis on Christ instead of all, everything drops into place, the meaning is understood to be that He is the God/Savior of all the nations, not that all are saved.
If Pauls experience is any indicator, Gods will trumps ours, not the other way around.
The concept which the word "hell" describes, like the word itself, is not in Scripture.
Just a little something Ive learned in the time Ive engaged in online debate: Its always called prooftexting" when it presents a view one doesnt agree with.
Im not sure how you come to that conclusion, but no problem.
Man is surely not free to ignore Gods will indefinitely. Just ask Paul his Saul Days were brought to a very sudden halt! This makes no sense to me. You say that man cant do anything apart from God (with which I agree), but then in the next breath you talk of man freely choosing things. That seems to me to be a contradiction.
Here also , it seems you are contradicting yourself. You say man has this free will, but then say that man cant do the right thing without Gods grace. So, which is it?
No, youre adding to Scripture here. It doesnt say anything about man freely believing in order to become chosen. They are called the elect; who do you think is doing the electing? Who does the choosing? (see John 15:16)
Commandment-keeping was an Old Covenant practice. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law, so that we can now say:
Man has a will, sure, but its not the sovereign sort that its commonly made out to be by the free will doctrine.
However, most believe that Satan will share Gods power and glory by being permitted to rule over most of those made in Gods Very Image, in a place called hell for all eternity. So Satans victory seems to have been simply moved from the temporal realm of this world to the eternal realm of the next, rather than obliterated altogether. When seen in that light, it would seem that rather than Jesus getting the Victory, Satan got a Promotion!
My point is, if Jesus Himself can do nothing apart from the Father, what makes us feeble humans any more capable of doing so? Im not about to believe that the clay has more power than the Potter.
No, there is nothing in us that is independent of God. That is the essence of mans problem: we tend to think weve got something thats just a wee bit beyond Gods ability to deal with. It so permeates every fiber of human existence that even the righteous build doctrines upon this vain idea, and expect the rest of us to think that such doctrines actually glorify God.
I agree that our wills are restrained by Divinely-set parameters. Which is why I dont believe we have a truly free will, in the full sense of the term free.
True, but our very personalities, and the inclinations that they have, were designed by God. So the choices we make, external circumstances aside, are even internally predetermined based on our God-given brain chemistry. The very wiring that makes up our wills is designed by God. (Hes got His fingerprints all over everything, LOL!
)I dont agree with what you think it means, but that doesnt mean I dont understand it. Perhaps you are hoping its just a case that I dont understand it, because the implications of what Ive shared here put God more squarely on the Pedestal than even some of the most pious would be comfortable with. But hey ... it is what it is.
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=49227522#post49227522Because God made the Vessel. He can make that Vessel any way He desires. That He sovereignly created us with His Image, including a will among other things is His choice, not ours. It is ours to use as He desires us to use it but God cannot compel you to use it a certain way. He can work to influence you just as much as Satan can influence you. Neither one can force you to do Their will. It is YOUR will that selects, chooses.If Paul’s experience is any indicator, God’s will trumps ours, not the other way around.
No one ever said that man can trump God. It is that God created man with a will. A will that is independent of God's will. That is the Sovereign will of God.
Because you switched from spiritual to physical. God is present everywhere. He is in hell because those in hell are His creatures and they need to be sustained with life. But they will not experience the union and communion with God, the spiritual relationship for which we were created to have with God.
Naturally. That is what protestants do. How else could you possibly get thousands of views of what scripture says. Even many from the same text.
but that is why it is called autonomous will. Man does not have the SAME will as God. But man does have a free will, which means it is not coerced. Man makes up His mind, He was created with a rational soul for that reason. That is why God gave man a choice in the Garden. Man must have choices available for which to decide.
Paul could have rejected God's call. God did not change His mind, but presented theTruth to Him and Paul chose to follow. Adam chose to disobey God/s command. We are and can resist God indefinitely. God will stop calling and leave those individuals to their own desires. Rom 1:24-26.
Unless you think we are some extra creature that exists alongside of God. All men exist by the Grace of God. We live, move and have out being from God. Part of man is that we are created sovereignly in God's Image. It is His Grace that provides that will. We use that will independently of God's will. God respective of the salvation of our souls, is a cooperative, synergistic relationship. God and man working together. Man can resist that call to union and communion, ONLY because God made us that way. That is why there will be a judgement. You will be held accountable for that very freedom.
Probably because above you had an incorrect understanding of what constitutes man's will. God is working the the lives of every human being. All men have a connection with God. It is called our soul. We are unique among all creatures that we are both physical and spiritual. God calls all men to repentance. We are led to Him. Satan on the other side is also leading you to sin. But man is the deciding factor which road will be taken. When we decide to work with God, we are cooperating with His Grace in the reason why we exist and were created. That is why it is a cooperative relationship. God will not save your soul without your desire and agreement to do so.
The people who are being elected are those that have believed. That is why they are called elect. It is the Body of Christ to be specific. But not a single person was ever chosen, elected, predestinated to become a believer. Nothing in scripture even hints at that view.
For the purpose of saving us from the fall. Man cannot save himself which is why Christ was needed. But the salvation of our individual souls is entirely different. In fact the law was established Rom 3:31. In fact that law has been enlarged to mean not just the letter, but now also the spirit of the law. Read the NT 10 commandments also called the Beatitudes. The law is still used to lead us to Christ. We still need to know what constitutes sin.
Having not understood what really constitutes man's will, I not sure how to respond to this. But man never had a sovereign will or what you described above as an autonomous will.
that may be a view by some as who knows how many views exist based on scripture. there are thousands.
But God and Christ are ONE. They are the same Essence. Two Persons but ONE Essence. We are not the same essence as God. The text clearly portrays the Trinity, not two separate entities.
k Again, I think this statement lacks the correct understanding of man's will. It is the ONLY way we can glorify God. Love must be free of coercion. Obedience must be void of coercion. That is why man has a responsiblity and can be held accountable. God is not glorifying Himself through objects but a creature, make in His Image who freely loves and obeys, is following His will, is the definition of glorifying God.
Free simply means not coerced. We are not compelled by some other force to make a decision one way or the other. Or that outside force is what actually makes the decision. Man is free to choose. Man is not compelled to act one way or the other. That is the meaning of having a rational soul. We are a moral agent being held responsible for those free decisions.
Creating us with a will is of God. But we are not speaking about the personhood of an individual here which distinquishes us one from another. We are speaking of our human nature. It is this part of us that is of the same essence. We are all consubstantial with each other. This is why and how death was passed through inheritance through our natures. Same as life through Christ came through His resurrection.
Many don't agree with what Scripture has always meant on this view as many others. That should be quite obvious from the thousands that have been generated through the method of sola scriptura. But your view essentially denies the image of God in man. That man was specifically created to be ABLE to be in communion and union with God because HE DESIRES TO be in union with God. God did not want to create an object that He could manipulate, but that the creature could return freely love. obedience and communion. Your view really has no purpose for God's revelation. If man is not responsible for what He does, He does not need to know or understand just what the will of God might be for man. It would all be cast in stone and operating in spite of man. A very deterministic view of which there are still some in existance today.
I'm not sure to whom you might be responding since you used a quote of mine and chaela response.
We do have a will, I agree with you. I just believe that there's a limit. You rightly said that God's will is Sovereign. Our human wills are limited, though.
Amen. Though I think it's churchdom in general -- not just protestantism -- that does this.
There is no evidence of man's disobedience going on indefinitely, including in Romans 1:24-26. We just aren't that powerful, that we could resist God for all eternity. At least, I haven't seen anything in Scripture saying anything to that effect.
Again, I don't believe that we can resist His call forever. There are so many inconsequential aspects of our lives that God has given us no control over, such as our gender, nationality, even our eye color. Yet those who believe in Hell would say that the same God who has given us no choice in areas of little consequence gives us total freedom to make potentially the most horrendous choice one can make -- rejecting God and winding up forever in eternal torment. There's something about that which doesn't add up for me.
It's precisely because I see the image of God in man that I reject the teaching that God would establish a system whereby most of those made in His image end up as Satan's hostages in the fires of hell forever.
We do have a will, I agree with you. I just believe that there's a limit. You rightly said that God's will is Sovereign. Our human wills are limited, though.
Which verses in Scripture do you find support this conclusion?
Amen. Though I think it's churchdom in general -- not just protestantism -- that does this.
True.
I agree we can choose certain things, such as whether to have soup or salad, etc. "Coerced" might be a strong term for it, I'm not sure I would want to go so far as to say that God is forcing every little detail. I think it's more a case that He directs it -- a good illustration is Proverbs 21:1, where it says that the king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. He might not micromanage each and every move, but the general direction we go is entirely up to Him, if that makes sense.
Yes, I can see how man would be free to choose from a limited selection of choices, within a Divinely-controlled environment. I see it as similar to a multiple-choice question, rather than a free-writing essay.
There is no evidence of man's disobedience going on indefinitely, including in Romans 1:24-26. We just aren't that powerful, that we could resist God for all eternity. At least, I haven't seen anything in Scripture saying anything to that effect.
Again, I don't believe that we can resist His call forever. There are so many inconsequential aspects of our lives that God has given us no control over, such as our gender, nationality, even our eye color. Yet those who believe in Hell would say that the same God who has given us no choice in areas of little consequence gives us total freedom to make potentially the most horrendous choice one can make -- rejecting God and winding up forever in eternal torment. There's something about that which doesn't add up for me.
Here also , it seems you are contradicting yourself. You say man has this "free" will, but then say that man can't do the right thing without God's grace. So, which is it?
Not only does He call us to repentance, but He is the one who actually grants it to us in the first place:
Acts 5:31 God has exalted to his right hand this very man as our Leader and Savior in order to extend repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
2 Timothy 2:24-26 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
Do you see any scriptural precedent for the Lord asking a man's permission first before healing him?
Why would a loving God, in His Omniscience, create a person in the first place if He knew that this person, in the end, would reject Him unto eternal doom? Even if one argues that we make that choice, why would a Deity who is referred to as Love, and who is also said to be merciful, go ahead and create that person knowing that what awaits them is eternal torture?
No, you're adding to Scripture here. It doesn't say anything about man "freely believing" in order to become chosen. They are called "the elect"; who do you think is doing the electing? Who does the choosing? (see John 15:16)
Belief is itself a gift of God and not something we can do before He has opened our eyes to the truth.
Commandment-keeping was an Old Covenant practice. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law, so that we can now say:
Rom 7:6 - "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."
However,as you just pointed out, we cannot save ourselves by observance of the Law. If we could, then Christ would've been able to save Himself the trouble of dying on the cross in our place. The purpose of the Law was to show us just how much we fall short of God's perfection. If we try to keep the whole Law yet mess up in just one area of it, we are guilty of breaking all of it. So, looking to the Law to save us is futile.
I don't see how Satan could be seen as defeated if he winds up getting most of mankind with him in hell forever.
My point is, if Jesus Himself can do nothing apart from the Father, what makes us feeble humans any more capable of doing so? I'm not about to believe that the clay has more power than the Potter.
The same is said of us that is said of Christ. Just as Jesus cannot do anything apart from the Father, we can do nothing apart from Jesus (John 15:5).
But the presence of the eternal-hell doctrine simply makes the situation a coercive one, as it has God appear as though He's saying "Love me or else." There's no freedom in that, any more than a husband who threatens his wife with harm if she rejects him. Of course that's coercion.
I agree that our wills are restrained by Divinely-set parameters. Which is why I don't believe we have a truly free will, in the full sense of the term "free".
I see the "turn or burn" approach as very coercive.
It's precisely because I see the image of God in man that I reject the teaching that God would establish a system whereby most of those made in His image end up as Satan's hostages in the fires of hell forever.
but that does not deny they are free. I'm not sure just what you even mean by limited. If in comparison to your previous understanding that would be true, in that man is not autonomous. But that has nothing to do with man or man's free will.
First, we were created in His Image. We were created to be eternal and in communion with Him.
define "churchdom"? The only ones that I know that do use sola scriptura as protestants are protestants.
for this conversation, the only direction we need to be concerned about is whether man is coerced by God or even Satan to either accept Christ or reject Him. Both agencies direct and lead, and set about paths for man to follow. God is calling directly all men to repentance because He sincerely desires to have union with every soul that will be born. But He has created man free in that man must decide freely whether he will follow Christ or follow Satan. Man will be judged on that decision, not God.
Again, respective to the topic, you have only two choices. It is either accept Christ or reject Him. However, in rejecting Him you can have a smorgasbord of choices of other gods to follow.
but we are not speaking about eternity. We are speaking only in this temporal life. Being in hell is hell for one reason that man will be unable to change that choice he made in his temporal lifetime.
and what has this to do with the topic? We are not speaking about the characteristics of our personhood. We are speaking of our nature. Our human nature, what makes us human rather than animals or plants.
because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
It is not a matter of doing the right thing, it is a matter of having the choices to do the right thing. God calls all men to repentance. He leads but man does not need to follow. Man cannot operate as a creature without God's Grace, whether one is a believer or an unbeliever. Man can do nothing apart from God, it does not matter on which side of the spiritual spectrum one might be.
Yes, he calls and if and when man believes, seeks repentance, God will ALWAYS grant repentance. That is why Christ atoned for the sins of the world. When we confess our sins, He is able to forgive us of those sins and does every time.
John 3:16 and all the others that require a man to believe. Man will not be healed, cannot be in union with Christ, will not be transformed into His Likeness UNLESS one believes. Believing is man's responsibility. He is called to believe.
Not all human beings end in doom. But God wanted a creature with which to have a union and personal communion with Him, freely joined. If God was going to have an object like a tree to love Him, then He could have done that as well, which He actually did. But He was desirous to have a creature that would freely return His love. That He risked the rejection was necessary in order to have a creature who sincerely desired to be in union and communion with Him.
They are elect because they have believed and are not joined with Christ, His elect, His Body. You will not find a single text anywhere in scripture that even hints that God chose persons to be believers individually. John 15:16 is Christ speaking to the disciples. But it also can be meant to be all the elect because that is our mission as believers. See Matt 28:16ff. But nothing here to even hint that God chose anyone to believe.
all things are a gift from God. All men have a measure of God's grace/faith. This is why no man will ever be able to give God an excuse and be able to claim that he did not know God. Again read Rom 1:18-23. The fact we have a soul, the divine element in man, the Image of God in man, is a link, a magnet of man to God. God calls all men, the Holy Spirit's job in this world is to convict all men of their sin through that calling. All men have the ability and capability to respond to that call. God would not call a person unless one is able to respond. That is why Christ gave life to the world. Man was dead, a mortal being and unable to be eternal. It precluded God having any eternal relationship with man.
