For Whom did Christ die?

[oworm]

Please vote in the poll at the top of the thread if you intend to post

 

[Rajni]

mmmm , "World" (Gk . Kosmos) doesn't mean everybody ;

1 Timothy 4:10 - "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

All ('pas', meaning "every, all manner of") men.

Especially ('malista', meaning "chiefly, most of all, especially")

He's the Savior "especially" of believers, not "exclusively" of believers.


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[ReformedChapin]

1 Timothy 4:10 - "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

All ('pas', meaning "every, all manner of") men.

Especially ('malista', meaning "chiefly, most of all, especially")

He's the Savior "especially" of believers, not "exclusively" of believers.


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If you literally take your intepretation the results is universalism and that would nullify all the verses that speak of the damnation of non-belivers.

The proper interpretation for "all" is humanity a great multitude of people or personhood for malista
newguy

 

[Rajni]

If you literally take your intepretation the results is universalism and that would nullify all the verses that speak of the damnation of non-belivers.

newguy

Which verses were you thinking of in particular that you believe would be nullified?



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[ReformedChapin]

As far as voting I would you would rephrase the question to the atonning death of Christ for his elect.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Which verses were you thinking of in particular that you believe would be nullified?



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like...

John 3:18
The one who believes in him is not condemned. 1 The one who does not believe has been condemned 2 already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only 3 Son of God.

 

[cygnusx1]

While an elect person remains in unbelief, they are not justified. When an elect person believes, they are justified by grace through faith. When a person is justified is also when the atonement is applied to them.

The atonement was accomplished at the cross. But the atonement was not applied at the cross.

What is the result once justification is dislocated from being applied at a specific time in the elect person's life?

The accomplished and the applied are collapsed into one.

If an elect person's sins were forgiven at the cross, then that means the elect person was also justified at the cross. Its the view of some Hypers, while most others hold eternal justification. Hypers minimizes faith into simply an acknowledgement that one is a member of the elect. The view also ignores the fact that God's wrath rests on the unbelieving elect. To overcome that objection, election is elevated as the highest logical priority.

But once election is elevated over all other soteriological issues, then then internal logic leads one rapidly to eternal justification. If the atonement can be collapsed into accomplished/applied, then being chosen by God becomes virtually synonymous with being justified by God. So in eternity past, when God chose a person (elected them), he also justified them. That is eternal justification, a Hyper-Calvinist position.

Owen wasn't a Hyper-Calvinist, but because of the argument's ambiguity between accomplished and applied, Hypers have used his argument quite often.

The upshot of all this is that Owen's argument is certainly not the slam dunk that many limited atonement advocates think it is. In fact many Reformers - during and after Owen - have addressed the argument and shown that it was not a good argument to use to prove limited atonement.

LDG

Hi LDG , I find your posts interesting , the subject of Justification is central to the extent of the atonement , and after many Months of study , I find I disagree with you here . I am not a Hyper , I don't believe in eternal Justification , neither do I believe Justification simply takes place when we believe ; there are just too many scriptures that place our Justification and reconciliation at the time and place of the cross of Christ.


Also , the point at which we are united to Christ , which is also central to the extent of the Atonement , is certainly before Redemption is received by faith . The Elect have never been out of Christ. they may have (as others) subjectively been considered as 'under God's wrath' , but never in actuality , and never destined for destruction .


This link will go into detail , if you are interested , I greatly admire John Hendrix , but on this web page I find myself agreeing with the other posters .

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/02/when_does_justification_take_p.php

C H Spurgeon was no Hyper , he was aked about the time and place of our justification , and even he submitted it is both at the cross and when we believe.

 

[Rightglory]

For Whom Did Christ Die"


Very simply He died for the world. He died to overturn the fall. A feat which man cannot perform.
Christ had two works to accomplish by His life, death, and resurrection. First and primary is that He needed to give life, physical existance to man, to the world in fact, which is why He is called the Savior of the world. All THINGS were given to Him to redeem. Col 1:15-20.
He became man for the sole purpose that He might become consubstantial with man, that is in essence just as we are in every detail - except He did not sin. By becoming man, He not only died our death, but then when He arose from the dead, so did OUR mortal natures arise with Him on Easter morn. No man will ever suffer permanent death. Christ overcame the condemnation of death placed upon man in the Garden, Gen 3:19. We shall no longer end in a pile of dust. God was not willing to permit either His most prized creature, bearing His Image, to simply be dissolved by death. So He gave life, a physical, eternal, immortal existance to every human being that will ever be born on this earth. He is Sovereign after all, and has won the battle against Satan who ruled this earth through the power of death.
Secondly, if man was going to have life, physical existance, and God also wanted that eternal state to begin in this life, the sin factor would also need to be resolved. God and sin do not mix. Consequently, even though He gave life to mankind in the eschotan, man would still live in this world as a sinner. Therefore, Christ became the perfect Lamb, the one-time sacrifice to atone or propitiate the sin of the world. This is a permanent sacrifice, it does not need to be repeated.
Much of the confusion I see in this thread on this single issue, is that many believe that the words, atone or propitiate means forgiveness. Christ did not forgive a single sin on the Cross. Not a single individual was absolved of his personal sin from the Cross. It was simply a sacrifice that was sufficient for all the sins that would be placed upon that sacrifice. The ONLY way any sin can be placed upon that sacrifice is to submit them to the High Priest, Christ, who now intercedes for those who repent, confess their sins. Those sins can be forgiven because they have been atoned for in that one-time sacrifice.
this is why constant, daily confession and repentance, renewal is necessary so that we do not accumulate sins. Sins will condemn us unless we get rid of them. That is being and remaining reconciled to Christ through confession.
So, in summary, Life is imposed on every single human being. The atonement is available for anyone who desires to be IN Christ, who believes and confessess his sins and remains ONLY by continual renewal of constant confession since we constantly sin. But being IN Christ, part of repentance is to sincerely sin less, get rid of sinful habits, a constant improvement with the help of the Holy Spirit, which is why He is indwelt in a believer. But a believer can quench that Spirit by sinning and not repenting and slowly drift out of Christ and become hardened to sin.
Christ saved mankind, saved the world, His creation from the bondage to death and sin. He did not save any individual souls from the Cross. That was the goal of the Cross to redeem mankind, to restore mankind to the condition he had before the fall. To be freely in union and communion with God. It is why we exist. He did not save us from our purpose or existance but to be restored to that capability.
In other words there is no limitation upon Christ's Work on the Cross. If His resurrection raised His body, which is our body from death, then we, all humans without exception will also arise from the dead in the last day. It is why the Scriptures also speak of the dead being raised. They are raised by Christ through His Incarnation. Texts such as Rom 5:19, I Cor 15:22, John 6:39 align with this understanding.
If one drop was spilled for even one sin, then it is sufficient for all sins, since a sacrifice was made. That all men do not avail themselves of this Gift is to their own detriment. Many also believe that we are being saved FROM HELL. We are NOT. We have been saved from death and sin. It was for the express purpose of permitting God to have union and communion with His creatures. Each human being will make an active choice of either accepting or rejecting God. No man will have an excuse that he did not know God. He will be judged on the basis of the knowledge he was given. this is explained best by Paul in Rom 1:18-23.
In fact, both hell and heaven were a direct result of Christ redeeming work. It provided consequences of having life again, and being able to choose whom we will serve. Under the condemnation of Adam, if it had remained, there is no need for either heaven or hell. There would be none to occupy either place. We all would end in dust, Gen 3:19.

 

[nobdysfool]

Paragraphs are our friends. composition makes things more readable.

 

[jmacvols]

Hit the poll and explain your vote.

1 Jn 2:2 - and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world.


I believe John's epistle here was written to Christians. John says in this verse "our sins only", this phrase is referencing Christians. Then John uses the word "but", hence Christ is not the propititation for Christians sins only but sins of the whole world. John makes a clear contrast between CHristians and non-Christians in this verse and that Christ is the propitiation for both groups. Christ's sacrifice was not limited to some men but everyone - "so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone." -Heb 2:9.

 

[cygnusx1]

I used to believe in Universal atonement (I spent three years agonising over Amyraldianism) until I began to study exactly what Christ wrought at the cross , Satisfaction ; Propitiation ; Expiation ; Reconciliation ; Justification ; Salvation ......... the more I studied the more I discovered these apply only to those who have been , are , or shall be saved .

When it comes right down to it these things are as nothing to men who will never believe on Christ , they are at best platitudes and at worst rhetoric.


Then the argument that we must preach "Christ died for YOU" if we are to evangelise ; funny , because the Apostles NEVER preached like that at all.

Then the argument that unless Christ died for everyone , we have no bvasis upon which to Offer the Gospel ; but the Good News is JUST that!

It is Good news in and of itself depending not upon the actions of recipients ... It is not Good News if ..............

The real ground for calling all sinners to Christ is not that Christ dies for all men or that He sometimes saves men from sin , depending upon conditions and works of the sinner , instead it is a certain promise that Christ is Victorious over sin , that He died for "sinners" ..... Repent and believe on Him and you will be saved !!!

If salvation in all it's complexity is dependent upon the will of the sinner , then no-one can have any solid ground upon which to stand , and salvation can be lost at ANY moment ; such an "atonement " is not worth trusting in ; it is as 'vunerable' as 2008 banks.

 

[beloved57]

The context of John 10 will not permit 2 things:
1) it will not permit the sheep to be anyone but Israel

your argument goes astray from the beginning..jn 10:

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold[ Jewish fold]: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd

This intimates sheep beyond israel as the nation..

 

[beloved57]

I no longer believe in limited atonement.

Then you dont believe the gospel..limited atonement is certainly taught..1 cor 15:

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

our sins is those of the sheep..not the goats..

 

[beloved57]

well so far at least we can agree that God was in Christ reconciling the "world" (Kosmos) to Himself , so that is a done deal , God is through His Son reconciled to this 'world' not counting THEIR trespasses against them !

The world of the elect had their sins not imputed to them, but to christ..and this is what the apostles preached as the gospel..

 

[beloved57]

While an elect person remains in unbelief, they are not justified

Yes they are..their belief doesnt justify them, the blood of christ does..

rom 5:

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

God Justified the elect while ungodly..rom 4:

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[beloved57]

I voted a); however, I would phrase it differently: Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and those who repent, turn to God, and perform deeds in accordance with their repentance have their sins forgiven.

In Christ,
Russ

you plainly believe in salvation by good deeds..

 

[beloved57]

I believe everyone will ultimately be saved. Like I said, God is the Savior of all men, especially (not 'exclusively') of believers.

Then you reject Jesus teaching on damnation of hell..matt 23:

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

[Rajni]

like...

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. 12 already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only 3 Son of God. The one who does not believe has been condemned ​

Do you see anything in the word "condemned" that would suggest "damnation of nonbelievers"? Please keep in mind that in the original language, there is no direct equivalent to the English word "damn". When I look up "damn" in my concordance, it redirects me to the words "condemnation," "destruction," "judge" and "judgement"; it doesn't include any direct equivalents to any variations of the English word "damn" (the latter which is often used to suggest some form of endless punishment or outright annihilation, both of which are debatable at best).

 

[Rajni]

Then you dont believe the gospel..limited atonement is certainly taught..1 cor 15:

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

our sins is those of the sheep..not the goats..

No, I simply don't believe your particular interpretation of the gospel.

Here's the situation, in a nutshell:

1. Calvinism teaches that God can save everyone, but won't.

2. Arminianism teaches that God wants to save everyone, but can't.

3. Universalism teaches that God both can and will save everyone.

I find what's behind Door #3 to be the most God-glorifying. Christian Partialism just doesn't seem to give the Lord much credit for all the trouble He went through to save us, kwim?​

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[Rajni]

Then you reject Jesus teaching on damnation of hell..matt 23:

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Since Scripture clearly states that God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (again, not believers exclusively), then the understanding of "the damnation of hell" as being endless fiery punishment and/or annihilation cannot also be true.

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