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For Whom did Christ die?

For whom did Christ die?

  • All the sins of all humans?

  • All the sins of some humans?

  • Some of the Sins of all humans?


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Rightglory

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Cygnusx1,


The real ground for calling all sinners to Christ is not that Christ dies for all men or that He sometimes saves men from sin , depending upon conditions and works of the sinner , instead it is a certain promise that Christ is Victorious over sin , that He died for "sinners" ..... Repent and believe on Him and you will be saved !!!
The grounds is that Christ did indeed die for and redeemed every single human being. It is an accomplished fact of history, accomplished at His resurrection. He literally saved mankind from the bondage to death and sin. Christ did not save you per se from hell which is what most of you are implying.
He saved mankind, because all men bear His Image. All men are creatures that He created specifically to be in communion and in union for an eternity. Man lost that capability because of death. Man could not give himself life, a physical existance which was lost through the condemnation of death upon Adam and all mankind. It is also this mortal nature that causes us to sin. It drives our wills.
There is no condition of man or works of man that can change, add, subtract from or even reject the work of Christ on the Cross. It is done outside of man himself. He is not only victorious over sin but death which is the cause of our sinning.
Because He saved man for a purpose, which was the original purpose of our existance, to be in union and communion, He not only restored mankind to that ability but also placed consequences upon man if he does not believe and repent. Christ saved mankind, you in particular, so that you could freely join with Him for an eternity and start in this life as well. If you do this, and are faithful, you shall be saved, you shall inherit the Kingdom, you shall attain the inheritance promised in I Pet 1:3-5 and elsewhere.
However, if you decide to reject Christ, there is also a consequence for that choice. It is hell. An eternal existance separated from God spiritually, called the second death.
All men have been given life so that they can choose and then stand in judgement of that choice. That is why Christ is the Savior of the world, of sinners. Why He overcame death for all and atoned for the sin of the world.
If salvation in all it's complexity is dependent upon the will of the sinner , then no-one can have any solid ground upon which to stand .
The salvation of the world, of all things, including all mankind, is NOT dependent upon man in any shape or form. Man could not give himself life nor atone for his own sins. ONLY Christ could do that and He did it for all because all bear His Image, all were created to have union with Him freely. He saved all so that each could freely decide to join with Him for an eternity. Your choosing Him fulfills the created mandate and His soverign will, actually choosing to reject Him fulfills that mandate since either one is a free choice. Man determines his eternal spiritual abode, with or without Christ.
and salvation can be lost at ANY moment ; such an "atonement " is not worth trusting in ; it is as 'vunerable' as 2008 banks
The salvation that Christ wrought for the world is done, an accomplished fact which no man can change or affect in any way.
However, God calls all men to join with Him in a spiritual communion and this is effected ONLY by and through faith. The atonement is not affected one way or the other on what you decide, to follow or reject Christ. But whether you desire to be IN Christ and to join with Him, you mist first repent and confess your sins. You can do that, as any other human being can do, because Christ is both the sacrificer and the sacrifice. He will place your sins upon that single, one-time sacrifice. It is sufficient for all of your sins, times hundreds, as well as all the sin of the world. For whosoever believes in My Name shall be saved. If Christ neither saved us from death, nor atoned for the sin of the world, there could be no believers. We were already condemned to death, permanently, cease to exist, dust to dust, Gen 3:19.
 
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beloved57

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Since Scripture clearly states that God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers

Right, the elect are saved before they believe, but their salvation is manifested when they believe..Thats how you know they are saved..

But, the seed of the serpent, shall be damned..matt 23:

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

maybe jesus should have consulted with you before asking this question, so you could enlighten him lol..
 
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ReformedChapin

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Since Scripture clearly states that God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (again, not believers exclusively), then the understanding of "the damnation of hell" as being endless fiery punishment and/or annihilation cannot also be true.

..
Wrong, since there is no verse which specifically states the salvation of unbelivers. You are just missapplying kosmos, which refers to humanity not every single human. It's talking about humanity as a whole.
 
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Rajni

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No, you dont believe the truth..

I don't believe your idea of the truth on this particular subject.

But since when was this thread about me?

Let's not derail it further, okay?:)



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Rajni

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Wrong, since there is no verse which specifically states the salvation of unbelivers. You are just missapplying kosmos, which refers to humanity not every single human. It's talking about humanity as a whole.

I was basically quoting Scripture itself with my previous statement to which you were responding. Here it is, right from the Source:

1 Timothy 4:10 ~ "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."




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cygnusx1

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I was basically quoting Scripture itself with my previous statement to which you were responding. Here it is, right from the Source:
1 Timothy 4:10 ~ "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

the word 'saviour' in this text is also translated [FONT=&quot]"protector," "benefactor," or "patron," , notice it is not Christ the Saviour here , but God the saviour/protector , God preserves mankind especially believers.

read ;

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted...TArticles/WTJ-NT/Baugh-1Tim4SaviorAll-WTJ.htm

also ;

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=004&verse=010
[/FONT][/quote]
 
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Rajni

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the word 'saviour' in this text is also translated
"protector," "benefactor," or "patron," , notice it is not Christ the Saviour here , but God the saviour/protector, God preserves mankind especially believers.


[FONT=&quot][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I'm sure that word could be translated into a lot of things. But rather than analyze how the word Savior ended up being translated, let's look at what the word originally was, in the Greek:[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]“soter”: Savior[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]From sozo; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ -- saviour. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]As for the Savior-as-Protector aspect, that's actually rather redundant terminology. It's a given that the Savior, as such, also protects. It's what makes salvation so salvific! :)



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[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 
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Rightglory

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Cygnusx1,

the word 'saviour' in this text is also translated [FONT=&quot]"protector," "benefactor," or "patron," , notice it is not Christ the Saviour here , but God the saviour/protector , God preserves mankind especially believers.
I understood the changing of a lot of other words to shore up Calvinism, but I would never believe you would need to rationalize out the word, SAVIOR.
[/FONT]
 
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cygnusx1

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[FONT=&quot][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I'm sure that word could be translated into a lot of things. But rather than analyze how the word Savior ended up being translated, let's look at what the word originally was, in the Greek:[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]“soter”: Savior[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]From sozo; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ -- saviour. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]As for the Savior-as-Protector aspect, that's actually rather redundant terminology. It's a given that the Savior, as such, also protects. It's what makes salvation so salvific! :)



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[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
[/FONT]

sure God is good to all , does He save all ? no.
 
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cygnusx1

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Cygnusx1,

I understood the changing of a lot of other words to shore up Calvinism, but I would never believe you would need to rationalize out the word, SAVIOR.
[/font]

i don't know why you should complain , it is you that has emptied it of all meaning ; saved but not saved is your position !


Rightglory's view ; God saved everybody even Judas , this means that Judas will never die .

But is Judas saved and in heaven ? Oh , no , he is in hell because he didn't accept his salvation !!!!!!!


OOOOOOOOOO KKKKKKKKKKKK
 
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Rightglory

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Cyngusx1,

don't know why you should complain , it is you that has emptied it of all meaning ; saved but not saved is your position !
not I, but only your complete misunderstanding of Scripture and what I have been saying.
Saved means saved, literally, completely, life to all the world. It reversed the fall. The fall did not effect just a few men as you seem to think.

Rightglory's view ; God saved everybody even Judas , this means that Judas will never die

No, that is the view of Christianity, when correctly understood.
Christ saved mankind from death. Judas will never die permanently. But he also chose because he was given life to reject Christ, thus will endure the spiritual separation from God for an eternity.

But is Judas saved and in heaven ? Oh , no , he is in hell because he didn't accept his salvation !!!!!!!
He had nothing to do with accepting the Salvation that Christ gave to the world. Every single human being will stand in judgement because Christ gave life to all so that it could take place for a reason. All will rise from the dead. Judas will spend eternity in hell because He rejected the Savior of the world who because He gave life, offered to have a union and communion with Judas as He does with every single human being. Judas chose not to have a spiritual union and communion with Him.
Christ did not not save your soul on the Cross. That is your complete misunderstanding of the Gospel. It is why you have it so turned around. A dead mortal being cannot have union or communion with God or with anyone else in eternity if he remains dead through the condemnation of death from Adam.

This is why in your view you have reprobates that cannot ever get to hell. You never gave them life so that they can stand in judgement. You left them condemned through Adam, which is what Christ reversed. It is why He is called the Second Adam. He is not a half an Adam or some of Adam. I Cor 15:22 says it very plainly. One just needs to believe what the Bible says.
Could you even explain your theology in light of Calvinism how the dead are raised in the last day?
Could you explain the meaning of the Incarnation within Calvinism's theology?
If you can you are doing much better than any other Calvinist on this forum as none have yet answered those questions.
 
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cygnusx1

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see folks , all saved ... BUT NOT ALL SAVED (most still going to hell) ^ ............


no souls saved on the cross ? ... then i am doomed !!!

that's why I am Reformed , I don't enjoy confusion.


the rest of your post has been answered before (6-18 months ago) , but hey , you didn't like it last time , so no point repeating it ..
 
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Rajni

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sure God is good to all , does He save all ? no.
Hmmmm...
39.gif

Nah -- I'll stick with what Scripture says concerning how many will be saved. :)
Thanks anyway! :wave:



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A New Dawn

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Hmmmm...
39.gif

Nah -- I'll stick with what Scripture says concerning how many will be saved. :)
Thanks anyway! :wave:



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How many does the scriptures say will be saved?
 
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Rajni

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A New Dawn

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All.
A list of verses which support this conclusion can be found here:

Bible Verses that Support the Redemption of All Things[/COLOR]

So then you don't understand that "all" in many of those verses means that Jesus is saying that He, alone, is the savior of men. His implication is that Zeus will not save them, or Buddha will not save them, etc.

p.s. - I looked at your list, and many of them have nothing to do with salvation.
 
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Rightglory

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Cygnusx1

see folks , all saved ... BUT NOT ALL SAVED (most still going to hell) ^ ............
Again, you have a total misunderstanding of the Work of Christ on the Cross. Believing in Him is not saving you from anything, if you look at it postively rather than negatively.
Your biggest theological problem is that you have actually eliminated the need for Christ. Chrsit accomplishing nothing within the Calvinist theological view.
If you think he has, then you should be able to answer the two questions I posed to you which you failed to even address. As with the others who support a reformed theology, they have no answer for them.
no souls saved on the cross ? ... then i am doomed !!!
You just might be, who really knows. But Christ did not save individual souls. He saved the material world, including that essence of man called his nature. Read the texts that you need to deny to bolster a false teaching of salvation.
that's why I am Reformed , I don't enjoy confusion.
What could be more confusing than Reformed theology. You have twisted and reconfigured scripture so badly that nothing aligns. You live on simple exegisis of only a couple of verses, then try to bend the rest to fit.

the rest of your post has been answered before (6-18 months ago) , but hey , you didn't like it last time , so no point repeating it ..
Point me to it. I don't recall any Calvinist actually explaining all the dead arising in the last day, nor and explanation of the Incarnation with the Calvinist view. But show me. I'll look at it again.
You have the same problem as chaela, but the opposite side of the coin.
 
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Rightglory

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chaela,

All.
A list of verses which support this conclusion can be found here:
Bible Verses that Support the Redemption of All Things
A quick look through the verses listed do ALL show the work of Salvation through Christ to the world, mankind.
However in reading some of your other explanations, you are also saying that it applies to individual persons as well. This is not what Scripture is treaching.
The salvation of our souls, the individual salvation has always been the purpose of our existance. We did not need to be saved from what we were created to be and do. Christ's work overcame the fall, which precluded man and God being united eternally.
Christ's redemptive work makes hell and heaven possible. All mankind was saved from death, more accurately from the bondage to death and sin. We are not being saved from hell. It is an option provided for individual men who freely choose NOT to live in union and communion with Christ. You cannot have either heaven or hell UNLESS Christ comes to intervene in history and restore the world to life again. A life lost through the condemnation of Adam.
No human being, nor the world will ever be lost to death. Satan and death have been overcome. Satan's power has been diminished and will be completely at an end in the last day when ALL THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED. Not a human being, (actually the word "it" refers to nature that was raised) was lost to death. This is what John 6:39 is stating very clearly.
That some men, even most of mankind end up in hell is a choice they freely took. They were created to do just that. God will give to each his hearts desire. God saved mankind and the world to preserve His created order. To prevent Satan and death to reign supreme and then God sharing authority with Satan. Hell is not a physical separation from God, it is a spiritual separation. But all men will live eternally.
 
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Rajni

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That some men, even most of mankind end up in hell is a choice they freely took. They were created to do just that. God will give to each his hearts desire. God saved mankind and the world to preserve His created order. To prevent Satan and death to reign supreme and then God sharing authority with Satan. Hell is not a physical separation from God, it is a spiritual separation. But all men will live eternally.
Eternal torture is not life.
We don't "freely" choose "hell". Both human "free" will and "hell" are mythical concepts.


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