For those who Think Paul taught Sola Fide

[chestertonrules]

Why did he say these things? What do you think he meant?


Romans 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturea will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[Hentenza]

Eph. 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rom. 4
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

There. Is Paul contradicting himself?

 

[chestertonrules]

Eph. 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rom. 4
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

There. Is Paul contradicting himself?

Paul does not contradict himself, he contradicts your dogma.

Salvation is possible via grace. Grace can be rejected by man.

We can't be saved without grace, but we can be lost if we don't cooperate with God's free gift of grace.

 

[mont974x4]

Paul never spoke against doing good works. He encouraged people to be servants, to be living sacrifices, to do good works. He just maintained the truth, that works don't save us.

 

[chestertonrules]

Paul never spoke against doing good works. He encouraged people to be servants, to be living sacrifices, to do good works. He just maintained the truth, that works don't save us.

Good works alone can't save us, but:

Romans 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturea will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[tulc]

Paul does not contradict himself, he contradicts your dogma.

Salvation is possible via grace. Grace can be rejected by man.

We can't be saved without grace, but we can be lost if we don't cooperate with God's free gift of grace.

...doesn't that argument apply to your beliefs also?
tulc(just wondering)

 

[Hentenza]

Paul does not contradict himself, he contradicts your dogma.

I just posted verses that seem to contradict your op premise. I have not discussed dogma.

Salvation is possible via grace.

ONLY by grace through faith.

Grace can be rejected by man.

Is God omnipotent and omniscient? Does He know all of our thoughts and can count each hair on our heads? Does man's will trump God's will?

We can't be saved without grace, but we can be lost if we don't cooperate with God's free gift of grace.

Nope. Man can't save himself. Under your premise works become the operative saving factor instead of faith. Works do not save.

BTW- Every character in the bible was saved by the grace of God through faith apart from works so there is not a single example in the bible depicting someone that was saved by the works they did. None.

 

[SoundCard]

Let me ask a question. Why is it that products of Spirit filled living are called fruits, instead of something that indicates more manual labor involved? Do farmers assemble all the atoms in a corn stalk for example, making each cell multiply, or do they water the soil, fertilize it, and let it grow? I think ideally, Christian living is much the same. We don't do much aside from take in the Light and get rained on occasionally during the growing season, and from each one fruit is bore in due season. What's it say?

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Even all the "stuff" people say we have to do, are just tasks already laid out in advance from God. There really isn't much human involvement here in the origin of these things, just move with the Spirit and you're gold.

 

[mont974x4]

Reading through 1 Peter recently I was reminded just how intent God was in planning the process of salvation as being entirely His work of grace.

Start to finish it is His awesome work and we owe Him our all. These two short verses from Romans are a good nutshell of the process...

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[chestertonrules]

Reading through 1 Peter recently I was reminded just how intent God was in planning the process of salvation as being entirely His work of grace.

Start to finish it is His awesome work and we owe Him our all. These two short verses from Romans are a good nutshell of the process...

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

More evasions.

What did God foreknow about each of us?

Our faith, our works, our prayers, our sins?

Is there anything he didn't know?

Why were some predestined for glory?

 

[SoundCard]

More evasions.

What did God foreknow about each of us?

Our faith, our works, our prayers, our sins?

Is there anything he didn't know?

Why were some predestined for glory?

Does it MAKE the distinction between any of those? Or is it simply talking about people as a whole?

 

[mont974x4]

he's missed the point.

 

[ebia]

We aren't saved by what we do, but being transformed in what we do is part of salvation, so one doesn't happen without the other - isn't even meaningful without the other.

To suggest someone is saved without "works" is like suggesting someone is healed without them getting better, but it's not the being better that heals them.

 

[Hentenza]

We aren't saved by what we do, but being transformed in what we do is part of salvation, so one doesn't happen without the other - isn't even meaningful without the other.

To suggest someone is saved without "works" is like suggesting someone is healed without them getting better, but it's not the being better that heals them.

Here is where the rubber meets the road. Salvation is never by works (see Romans, Ephesians, Hebrews, etc.), however, judgment is always by works. Salvation of the believer does not equal judgment. Two different events, two different criteria. Saving faith naturally produces good works because we are made into a new creation and become workers for God. These works were ordained by God not by us. Without faith, the sole basis for salvation, we would not be in a position to do good works that are pleasing to God.

 

[Standing Up]

Nice to see one thread come to a resounding, unifying, Christian conclusion.

Praise God.

 

[MrPolo]

Why did he say these things? What do you think he meant?


Romans 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturea will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Don't forget to continue on to verse 13 to validate the context.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[Lulav]

Eph. 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rom. 4
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

There. Is Paul contradicting himself?

Salvation is a gift, not earned but that doesn't mean you stay stagnant in it. Salvation is a beginning, I believe he is speaking of how you live from thereon after.

Faith without works is dead.

Here's one of the first works we are required to do:

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing .
​

 

[Lulav]

Reading through 1 Peter recently I was reminded just how intent God was in planning the process of salvation as being entirely His work of grace.

Start to finish it is His awesome work and we owe Him our all. These two short verses from Romans are a good nutshell of the process...

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But didn't Jesus say, Many are called and yet few are chosen???

 

[Hentenza]

Don't forget to continue on to verse 13 to validate the context.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Context would be nice.

 

[Hentenza]

Salvation is a gift, not earned but that doesn't mean you stay stagnant in it. Salvation is a beginning, I believe he is speaking of how you live from thereon after.

Faith without works is dead.

Here's one of the first works we are required to do:

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing .
​

Love and trust in the redeeming atonement of Christ is never stagnant.