For those who think God is unjust

[BobRyan]

God's own lament in Isaiah 5:4 only works in a freewill system that God sovereignly chose
Isaiah 5:4 "WHAT MORE could I have done than that which I have already done???"

So also in the case of Christ's lament in Matt 23 "O Jerusalem Jerusalem... how I wanted... but you would not"

"God causing Hitler to take God's name in vain" is not the kind of model we find in the Bible.

Instead we see things like this
Isaiah 5:4 "WHAT MORE could I have done than that which I have already done???"
and we see 2 Cor 5 "We BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God"

Paul did not write "We beg GOD on behalf of Christ to CAUSE you to be reconciled to God"

Ezek 18:
30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”

2 Peter 3:9 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

The problem with cold determinism -- is the Bible.

I think we are done here.

You have freewill you can choose to exit at that point if you wish - for any reason you wish. (For example: I note that you quoted "you" then stated your intent to leave that conversation.)

I too have freewill so I will stick with the Bible on this one as noted above.

 

[Clare73]

1 Pet 1:2 -- prognōsis
-- prognōsis not the same as Horizo - you appear to have conflated the two.

Acts 2:23 predetermined plan = horizō
Acts 2:23 foreknowledge = prognōsis
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
no doubt. He foreknows. which does not logically imply forecausation unless he was limited to being human and that was the only way he could foreknow something.

It's not about logic, it's about the testimony of Scripture.

God's foreknowledge is about his own works, not about man's works.
"Known to the Lord for ages is his work. (Acts 15:18)

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished them)." (Isaiah 48:3)

God knows what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

Also see Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 5:21.

It would be difficult for a human to foreknow without "moving the thumb of freewill" to make something happen.

I always say that it is hard for humans to "be God" but God can foreknow without resorting to the methods a human would need to use in order to foreknow something. Which is the point where the human concept of how to foreknow something - falls short of the God-task.

 

[renniks]

What does that have to do with anything?

You are the one who called me a kid. You tell me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You are the one who called me a kid. You tell me.

I did not call you a kid. I quoted from "The Magician's Nephew" to say that you were being illogical --simply that.

Edit: correction --the book was CS Lewis' Lion, Witch and Wardrobe. Not Magician's Nephew.

 

[renniks]

I did not call you a kid. I quoted from "The Magician's Nephew" to say that you were being illogical --simply that.

Edit: correction --the book was CS Lewis' Lion, Witch and Wardrobe. Not Magician's Nephew.

Lewis wasn't a calvinist.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Lewis wasn't a calvinist.

LOLOL So what??? Wow!

 

[BobRyan]

God's foreknowledge is about his own works, not about man's works.
"Known to the Lord for ages is his work. (Acts 15:18)

God not only knows what He will do - He knows everything "all knowing".

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished them)." (Isaiah 48:3)

God knows what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

Not according to the scriptures that I keep posting- and that keep getting side stepped as I already noted here - #61

Is 5:4
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

Jer 32:35 35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them, nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to mislead Judah to sin.

Matt 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Luke 19
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

The problem with determinism - is the Bible

 

[BobRyan]

Did God make a mistake? He created the serpent, no? He set the trees in the Garden, he allowed precisely what happened, knowing ahead of time exactly what was going to happen. Are you going to tell me that even that has no relation to causation?

It has everything to do with causation if one carefully avoids the freewill of sinless unfallen beings like Adam and Eve and presumes them to have been pre-programmed to fail. It could not be supposed as a defect of their fallen sinful nature - since they were sinless.

The argument that God "caused" them to fail in the context of their sinless unfallen state is an extreme one, perhaps you would also reject it. I have heard of supralapsarian but even that idea falls short of God causing sinless beings to sin.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's imagine a scenario where right after God created Adam - He gave Adam one day to "Sit in His chair". So then Adam waived his hand while sitting in the God-chair and created 12 perfectly formed Angel statues. Then he blew up one third of them and said --"Did you see that I can blow up one third of them if I want to and leave the others in tact - because I am god today".

And after that God say "how nice.. now your time is up .. back to Eden with you".

 

[Clare73]

God not only knows what He will do - He knows everything "all knowing".

Clare73 said:
" 'I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished them).' (Isaiah 48:3)"
Not according to the scriptures that I keep posting

Wow! . . .so God is lying in Isa 48:3?

Or God contradicts himself? Or he is confused?

- and that keep getting side stepped as I already noted here - #61

Is 5:4
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

Doesn't your understanding of that verse contradict your belief above that God is "all knowing"?

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

So God's will is not done? So in addition to not being omniscient, he is also not omnipotent?
Keep going at this rate, and you will have him down to your size.

However, this letter is addressed to believers, wondering why the second coming had not occurred. Peter tells them God is not willing that any (of them, any of the elect) should perish by the second coming occurring before they have come to faith.

Jer 32:35 35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them, nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to mislead Judah to sin.

And your understanding here takes God down another notch in omniscience.

The problem with determinism - is the Bible

I say the problem is your misunderstanding of the Bible which requires that you knock God down to your size.

 

[BobRyan]

God not only knows what He will do - He knows everything "all knowing".

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished them)." (Isaiah 48:3)



Not according to the scriptures that I keep posting- and that keep getting side stepped as I already noted here - #61

Is 5:4
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

Jer 32:35 35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them, nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to mislead Judah to sin.

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"

Matt 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Luke 19
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

The problem with determinism - is the Bible

Wow! . . .so God is lying in Isa 48:3?

I would never say that -- But I do freely quote Isaiah 5:4

Or God contradicts himself? Or he is confused?

None of the above.

Is 5:4
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

Doesn't your understanding of that verse contradict your belief above that God is "all knowing"?

God is showing His frustration with the fact that He has done everything possible within the freewill system He sovereignly chose to create, to get the result of good fruit and those in rebellion against Him have no good reason to behave as they do.


Jer 32:35 35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them, nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to mislead Judah to sin.

in context God is speaking of to the point about what HE chooses to cause - to will - to want. And He is saying He totally never even thought to cause or make or have that happen as if it were something in HIS domain or of HIS doing. Rather they do things like take God's name in vain of their own will, their own choice, --- rather than His choice to cause them to do it.


He has the power to turn everyone into robots. No doubt about that. He sovereignly chose not to - hence John 1:11.

Is 5:4
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

Matt 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Luke 19
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

So God's will is not done? So in addition to not being omniscient, he is also not omnipotent?
.

both are false because God is ABLE to choose restraint. God is ABLE to sovereignly choose the freewill system of "whosoever will may come"

So then -- that is God weeping - it is God's lament .. .it is not me "proposing" that such a Bible would exist.

 

[Clare73]

I would never say that -- But I do freely quote Isaiah 5:4
None of the above.
God is showing His frustration with the fact that He has done everything possible within the freewill system He sovereignly chose to create, to get the result of good fruit and those in rebellion against Him have no good reason to behave as they do.
Jer 32:35 35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them, nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to mislead Judah to sin.
in context God is speaking of to the point about what HE chooses to cause - to will - to want. And He is saying He totally never even thought to cause or make or have that happen as if it were something in HIS domain or of HIS doing. Rather they do things like take God's name in vain of their own will, their own choice, --- rather than His choice to cause them to do it.

He has the power to turn everyone into robots. No doubt about that. He sovereignly chose not to - hence John 1:11.

Is 5:4
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

Matt 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Luke 19
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
both are false because God is ABLE to choose restraint. God is ABLE to sovereignly choose the freewill system of "whosoever will may come"
So then -- that is God weeping - it is God's lament .. .it is not me "proposing" that such a Bible would exist.

Your understanding robs God of omniscience and omnipotence.

 

[BobRyan]

Your understanding robs God of omniscience and omnipotence.

your argument is "with the text" and the fact that I have posted it.

I am not "proposing" that these Bible texts exist - I am quoting them.

The objective unbiased reader should be prepared to see these texts go unanswered.

God not only knows what He will do - He knows everything "all knowing".

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished them)." (Isaiah 48:3)



Not according to the scriptures that I keep posting- and that keep getting side stepped as I already noted here - #61

Is 5:4
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

Jer 32:35 35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them, nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to mislead Judah to sin.

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"

Matt 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Luke 19
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

The problem with determinism - is the Bible

Wow! . . .so God is lying in Isa 48:3?

I would never say that -- But I do freely quote Isaiah 5:4

Or God contradicts himself? Or he is confused?

None of the above.

Is 5:4
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

Doesn't your understanding of that verse contradict your belief above that God is "all knowing"?

God is showing His frustration with the fact that He has done everything possible within the freewill system He sovereignly chose to create, to get the result of good fruit and those in rebellion against Him have no good reason to behave as they do.


Jer 32:35 35 They built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them, nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to mislead Judah to sin.

in context God is speaking of to the point about what HE chooses to cause - to will - to want. And He is saying He totally never even thought to cause or make or have that happen as if it were something in HIS domain or of HIS doing. Rather they do things like take God's name in vain of their own will, their own choice, --- rather than His choice to cause them to do it.


He has the power to turn everyone into robots. No doubt about that. He sovereignly chose not to - hence John 1:11.

Is 5:4
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

Matt 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Luke 19
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

So God's will is not done? So in addition to not being omniscient, he is also not omnipotent?
.

both are false because God is ABLE to choose restraint. God is ABLE to sovereignly choose the freewill system of "whosoever will may come"

So then -- that is God weeping - it is God's lament .. .it is not me "proposing" that such a Bible would exist.

 

[Clare73]

your argument is "with the text" and the fact that I have posted it.

As is yours with Isaiah 48:3 and Acts 15:18, which started this conversation.

God's foreknowledge is about his own works, not about man's works.
"Known to the Lord for ages is his work. (Acts 15:18)

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished them)." (Isaiah 48:3)

]I am not "proposing" that these Bible texts exist - I am quoting them.

The objective unbiased reader should be prepared to see these texts go unanswered.

 

[BobRyan]

As is yours with Isaiah 48:3 and Acts 15:18, which started this conversation.

I have not said anything about those texts at all - much less argued against any point they make in response to them or claimed that someone who quotes them is downsizing God.

 

[Clare73]

I have not said anything about those texts at all - much less argued against any point they make in response to them or claimed that someone who quotes them is downsizing God.

See post #62 and #67.

 

[sawdust]

FREE WILL, as in 'without logical obligation', restriction or causation, we do not have. The Bible teaches choice and will. It does not teach Freewill.

I've never heard of freewill as taught like that. Nothing has that sort of freedom except possibly God alone. It's called "free" will because it's choices you make from your own will without it being forced on you by the will of another not because it has some ludicrous properties you want to place on it to justify it's rejection. It may possibly be argued even God doesn't have free will as you have described it for God is not free to lie and therefore is restricted by His own nature.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I've never heard of freewill as taught like that. Nothing has that sort of freedom except possibly God alone. It's called "free" will because it's choices you make from your own will without it being forced on you by the will of another not because it has some ludicrous properties you want to place on it to justify it's rejection. It may possibly be argued even God doesn't have free will as you have described it for God is not free to lie and therefore is restricted by His own nature.

I think you've got the basic idea. There are many on this site saying otherwise, using terms like autonomous ('limited', of course). Google's quoted dictionary is vague enough to avoid protests from both sides: "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

There is a habit common to modern Christendom, that accepts the human worldview as a valid foundation from which to judge fact. To say that God is restricted in any way is, as you indicated, just a way to look at it. He is free to do whatever he wants. It is rather anthropomorphic then, to say he is restricted by his nature. There is no possibility of him lying, because he does not want to, so the attempt to describe constraints on him that way are misleading.

But it is not so much because he is not like us, as it is because he is GOD -- Omnipotent, First Cause; thus all fact flows from him, and cannot constrain him.