For those who think God is unjust

[Mark Quayle]

Many times on this site I have seen protests to the notion that God would predetermine sin, (and related matters), as though he sat aloof, running things like a video game for his enjoyment. We think of the injustice of man against man, and when we run into verses like these, they seem a bit nebulous, or only prescriptive in nature.

But I ask you --is God not the one being damaged by our sin? Why do we think so much of ourselves that we have room to complain? He doesn't need us to justify him.

He is not doing this TO us, but FOR us.

Psalm 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge.

Matthew 25:36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.

Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.

 

[Joyous Song]

Many times on this site I have seen protests to the notion that God would predetermine sin, (and related matters), as though he sat aloof, running things like a video game for his enjoyment. We think of the injustice of man against man, and when we run into verses like these, they seem a bit nebulous, or only prescriptive in nature.

But I ask you --is God not the one being damaged by our sin? Why do we think so much of ourselves that we have room to complain? He doesn't need us to justify him.

He is not doing this TO us, but FOR us.

Psalm 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge.

Matthew 25:36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.

Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.

JS; Sin is the result of HaShem, praise be He, granting us Freewill. He did this so as to have children like Himself, but freewill not only grants us the right to choose wisely, its also grants the right to chose unwisely. Sin is the result to choosing unwisely.

Yet often people suffer for the sins of others. My brother in law is dying right now from cancer he got from working with chemicals that caused his cancer. His bosses did not protect him yet he paying the price. Peolpe also suffer for their own sins including complacency.

 

[Mark Quayle]

JS; Sin is the result of HaShem, praise be He, granting us Freewill. He did this so as to have children like Himself, but freewill not only grants us the right to choose wisely, its also grants the right to chose unwisely. Sin is the result to choosing unwisely.

Yet often people suffer for the sins of others. My brother in law is dying right now from cancer he got from working with chemicals that caused his cancer. His bosses did not protect him yet he paying the price. Peolpe also suffer for their own sins including complacency.

You are attempting to excuse God for something for which he needs no excuse. Will and Choice, we do have. FREE WILL, as in 'without logical obligation', restriction or causation, we do not have. The Bible teaches choice and will. It does not teach Freewill.

Again, Sin is AGAINST GOD. God has hurt himself for our sake, and we insist on rewriting the script? You would have his glorious Grace tarnished.

Don't make excuses for God. He doesn't want them.

 

[Joyous Song]

You are attempting to excuse God for something for which he needs no excuse. Will and Choice, we do have. FREE WILL, as in 'without logical obligation', restriction or causation, we do not have. The Bible teaches choice and will. It does not teach Freewill.

Again, Sin is AGAINST GOD. God has hurt himself for our sake, and we insist on rewriting the script? You would have his glorious Grace tarnished.

Don't make excuses for God. He doesn't want them.

JS: I not making excuses for HaShem, praise be He. He did what He had to do to get children. Evil came because of our actions, Adam and Eve could have told the serpent to take a flying leap. They id and we rarely do.

What we will and the choices we freely make, by the way, is free will.

 

[Mark Quayle]

JS: I not making excuses for HaShem, praise be He. He did what He had to do to get children. Evil came because of our actions, Adam and Eve could have told the serpent to take a flying leap. They id and we rarely do.

What we will and the choices we freely make, by the way, is free will.

Choice and will, we do have. Bit. free? Are we not slaves, either to Christ or to sin? Do you think we can do anything uncaused?

We most certainly ARE to be blamed for our sin. We did it. But we did it against GOD. Would you paint a scenario where the only way things happen is by chance? What do you think determines outcomes?

"Apart from me you can do nothing"

 

[Joyous Song]

Choice and will, we do have. Bit. free? Are we not slaves, either to Christ or to sin? Do you think we can do anything uncaused?

We most certainly ARE to be blamed for our sin. We did it. But we did it against GOD. Would you paint a scenario where the only way things happen is by chance? What do you think determines outcomes?

"Apart from me you can do nothing"

JS: free will actions are not choice, they are by choice! and yes we wound HaShem, He did not give us this freedom to sin but so we can become as His children. This was the essence of Christ message, That all were sinners, all chose unwisely, and therefore need His salvation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

JS: free will actions are not chance, they are by choice! and yes we wound HaShem, He did not give us this freedom to sin but so we can become as His children. This was the essence of Christ message, That all were sinners, all chose unwisely, and therefore need His salvation.

If freewill choice is not by chance, WHAT determines the choices? You will most likely say, "We do!" Yes, of course we choose --I just said that! But WHY do we choose what we choose?

You have yet to tell me whether or not we choose, uncaused, unfettered.

 

[Joyous Song]

If freewill choice is not by chance, WHAT determines the choices? You will most likely say, "We do!" Yes, of course we choose --I just said that! But WHY do we choose what we choose?

You have yet to tell me whether or not we choose, uncaused, unfettered.

JS: Free will is a choice I meant to write. I fixed it. sorry for the error. Actually this "arguments" feels like one of semantics, and not a real difference of opinion.

 

[Mark Quayle]

JS: Free will is a choice I meant to write. I fixed it. sorry for the error. Actually this "arguments" feels like one of semantics, and not a real difference of opinion.

I hope you are right. Do you agree that God is the only first cause, and that logically everything else is, whether directly or indirectly, a result of that cause?

 

[BobRyan]

Many times on this site I have seen protests to the notion that God would predetermine sin, (and related matters), as though he sat aloof, running things like a video game for his enjoyment. We think of the injustice of man against man, and when we run into verses like these, they seem a bit nebulous, or only prescriptive in nature.

But I ask you --is God not the one being damaged by our sin? Why do we think so much of ourselves that we have room to complain? He doesn't need us to justify him.

He is not doing this TO us, but FOR us.

Psalm 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge.

Matthew 25:36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.

Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.

God suffers also in being tortured on the cross - and suffering the torment and suffering death for every sin committed by every person in all of time.

He suffers far more because He takes in all the suffering into Himself - to suffer it for us.

 

[BobRyan]

I hope you are right. Do you agree that God is the only first cause, and that logically everything else is, whether directly or indirectly, a result of that cause?

Not in the predetermined robot sense.

Freewill is funny that way.

 

[Joyous Song]

I hope you are right. Do you agree that God is the only first cause, and that logically everything else is, whether directly or indirectly, a result of that cause?

I believe He knew evil would enter the world if He allowed us to make choices (gave free will), Yet He did not give this to create evil but to create children, this was the only way. So is He responsible? only if we remove our own stupidity from the choice. So I see Him with no fault, indeed He sent His only Son to cover our stupidity. That's how much He loves us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not in the predetermined robot sense.

Free will is funny that way.

Explain. You speak of free will as a necessary combination of words. Why? Do you think that the notion of God being otherwise, that is to say, the notion that God purposefully causes all things, is somehow illogical?

Or merely unscriptural and you can't explain the logic? Or both?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I believe He knew evil would enter the world if He allowed us to make choices (gave free will), Yet He did not give this to create evil but to create children, this was the only way. So is He responsible? only if we remove our own stupidity from the choice. So I see Him with no fault, indeed He sent His only Son to cover our stupidity. That's how much He loves us.

Then let me ask this: Is the reason you call it 'free will' instead of merely 'will' or 'real choice' the result of habit, or is it something more? Do you insist on self-determination, quite apart from the causation of First Cause? Is our sin in no way a result of anything God caused? Are there little first causes walking about the earth?

 

[BobRyan]

Explain. You speak of free will as a necessary combination of words. Why? Do you think that the notion of God being otherwise, that is to say, the notion that God purposefully causes all things, is somehow illogical?

Or merely unscriptural and you can't explain the logic? Or both?

I think that "logically" an all powerful God most certainly "could" limit Himself to making nothing more than pre-programmed robots. Some of whom He programs to take His name in vain and others that He does not program that way. An all knowing all powerful God "could" do that -- possibly to setup the impression , the pretense that He had some sort of opposition.

Could "could" have spoken words about what He is doing in that regard that make it very clear to His pre-programmed robots that this is His way.

But Given that His own Word says He is doing the very opposite of that AND that He is just and true - then in that case it is not logical at all for Him to go against His own Word on that point.

 

[BobRyan]

Then let me ask this: Is the reason you call it 'free will' instead of merely 'will' or 'real choice' the result of habit, or is it something more? Do you insist on self-determination, quite apart from the causation of First Cause? Is our sin in no way a result of anything God caused? Are there little first causes walking about the earth?

Iron clad determinism does not allow for a freewill system because it has no concept that accounts for free will.

If you say this fallen person accepted the Gospel while an identical fallen person next to him rejected the Gospel - the all-is-determined/planned/programmed model only has one source for that result... "God did it", God programmed one to accept and the other to reject.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe He knew evil would enter the world if He allowed us to make choices (gave free will), Yet He did not give this to create evil but to create children, this was the only way. So is He responsible? only if we remove our own stupidity from the choice. So I see Him with no fault, indeed He sent His only Son to cover our stupidity. That's how much He loves us.

He created all with freewill - but not "all" chose rebellion even though all could have.

 

[BobRyan]

If freewill choice is not by chance, WHAT determines the choices?

A deterministic model has no way to account for the necessary layer of independence in which freewill operates and disconnects God from responsibility for the wrong choices made by His creation. The freewill model dictates that compelling evidence will produce 100% right choices, and so also "some_evidence + faith" can produce 100% right choices but is not certain to do it.

 

[Clare73]

Iron clad determinism does not allow for a freewill system because it has no concept that accounts for free will.

If you say this fallen person accepted the Gospel while an identical fallen person next to him rejected the Gospel - the all-is-determined/planned/programmed model only has one source for that result... "God did it", God programmed one to accept and the other to reject.

Or, the damage done to Adam's descendants by his sin leaves all powerless to believe to salvation and obey.

So God enables some to do so, that he might have children.

And uses the others for the sake of those who are his children, to effect his purpose in his children.

 

[BobRyan]

Adam and Eve had freewill and could choose between right and wrong. So also did the angels in heaven have freewill when 1/3 of them sided with Lucifer.

But at the fall of man - all of Adam's children were born depraved Eph 2:1-6, slaves to sin Romans 6. Yet God supernaturally chose to enable freewill for the fallen even in that case by supernaturally "drawing ALL mankind" to Himself John 12:32 - enabling the choice to accept the gospel that depravity disabled.

So God enables some to do so, that he might have children.

God supernaturally draws ALL thus enabling ALL to accept the Gospel