For those who think God is unjust

[Palmfever]

It is sometimes quoted by those who profess causal determinism, that we cannot come to God unless we are drawn, called.

John, 6:65. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

That was done and is in effect. When Christ was hung He died for all and called all.

John, 12:32. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Many are called and few chosen.

Matt, 22:11. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how came you in here not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

We share the gospel because men are self determined.

2 Tim, 2:25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

We are at war.

Ephesians, 6:12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We remind people that God loves them. That He has invited them to a feast. He has asked for their hand in marriage. He has built an eternal home in which all who answer ‘Yes’ may claim as their own as a ‘Brother of the Son.’

God is not willing that any should perish. Yet because He has given us the ability to chose many will. Forced compliance is not love. God has shown His love for you, you must chose to return that love. If it is the will of God that none perish, He clearly is not imposing His will. He’s asking, “Come let us reason together.” “Behold I stand at the door and knock.”

Chose Life...

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is patient and tolerant to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2nd Corinthians 5:14, “For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.”And He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf.

Peter, 3:18. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.

John 1:7, “The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.” John 12:32, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” 1st John 2:2, “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” Acts 17:30, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent.” Romans 5:18, “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” Titus 2:11, “For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men.”

 

[Clare73]

Adam and Eve had freewill and could choose between right and wrong. So also did the angels in heaven have freewill when 1/3 of them sided with Lucifer.

But at the fall of man - all of Adam's children were born depraved Eph 2:1-6, slaves to sin Romans 6. Yet

God supernaturally chose to enable freewill for the fallen even in that case by supernaturally "drawing ALL mankind" to Himself John 12:32 - enabling the choice to accept the gospel that depravity disabled.

God supernaturally draws ALL thus enabling ALL to accept the Gospel

And yet: "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

So the "all mankind" must not mean every individual, but means from every nation, Jew and Gentile alike, without exception regarding nationality, rather than the way it was in the OT, when only those from one group of mankind, Israel, was drawn to God.

 

[BobRyan]

And yet: "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

So the "all mankind" must mean from every nation, Jew and Gentile, without exception regarding nationality,

Or it means "all mankind without any sort of exception at all". And thus the "drawing of all" enables all to make a choice to accept the Gospel if they so choose in true Rom 10:9-10 fashion. Thus all CAN come because ALL are drawn, but not all DO come to Him.

if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
​

God as the first cause "Came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock , if ANYONE hears My voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in"

 

[Clare73]

It is sometimes quoted by those who profess causal determinism, that we cannot come to God unless we are drawn, called.

John 6:65. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

That was done and is in effect. When Christ was hung He died for all and called all.

John, 12:32. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

And then we have the limitations stated:

"All the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Many are called and few chosen.

The gospel call goes out to all, but not all are enabled to respond. (John 6:65)

 

[Clare73]

Or it means "all mankind without any sort of exception at all".

Not in light of the verses in the post above, #24.

 

[Clare73]

Or it means "all mankind without any sort of exception at all". And thus the "drawing of all" enables all to make a choice to accept the Gospel if they so choose in true Rom 10:9-10 fashion. Thus all CAN come because ALL are drawn, but not all DO come to Him.

if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

God as the first cause "Came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" Jn 1:11

Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock , if ANYONE hears My voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in"

None of which necessarily means ability to all.

 

[Palmfever]

And yet: "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

So the "all mankind" must not mean every individual, but means from every nation, Jew and Gentile alike, without exception regarding nationality, rather than the way it was in the OT, when only those from one group of mankind, Israel, was drawn to God.

There was no nation of Israel until Abraham and some men pleased God.
The concept of casual determinism is no new debate. Fate. A predetermined life in which we have no choice.
Is our life dictated solely by extrinsic motivation? The argument whether or not biological, physiological and religious constraints dictate our actions has been kicked back and forth on the metaphysical field between supporters and detractors for centuries with cheerleaders leaping up and down on both sidelines. What the unbelieving heart professes is of no consequence to me with the exception of when Christians attempt to inject it into scripture. This relates therefore to the ability of individuals to choose Gods grace, or reject Him.

Did Adam have the ability to choose? Did Adam have the capacity and information necessary to make an informed choice on obeying God’s command, “Do not eat”… Capacity, perhaps. Information, maybe not. Prior to consumption of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, there was no knowledge of good and evil. What Adam and Eve had was an edict, a command with no explanation other than “you will die,” a concept he had no reference for. The fact is he was not then struck down, that did not occur until the age of 930.

Free will, Free agency. Does the free agent exercise free will? Does the agent have a specific faculty of will? Does causal determinism strictly exclude free will, or does it allow for partial free will?

This is relative as it pertains to, “how one is saved?” The freedom to choose to act or not is not determined by the ability nor the casual inability to act. The will is fulfilled by the determination to act. We are addressing the will, not the action. The inability to walk does not negate the determination to do so. We are discussing a relationship with God, not the decision to walk the dog or not, regardless of being incapacitated physically or prevented by external factors inhibiting physical action. We do not “wrestle against flesh and blood”. We are discussing FAITH. ‘If a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart’.

Free agents have the faculties of intellect and will. The intellect/rational faculty cognates, as a result the intellect presents various options to the will as to a course of action. If Adam had the capacity to choose adherence to Gods edict, he certainly had the option to choose disobedience. Some may argue from a position that free will and free agency are separate and independent states, they are nondetachable. The agent responds and makes a decision based on the best information available, that decision within itself is an act of will. Some may assert a completely neutral heart as a prerequisite for making any decision of will. If indifference, lack of preference or bias are required attributes for the exercise of free will, human nature is replete with them.

God and Adam spent time walking in the garden. After an indeterminate amount of time as Adam had the task of giving names to all the animals, God must have noticed in Adam a pensive demeanor and recognized the loneliness for ones kind. “It is not good for man to be alone”. Adam must have in his heart and mind, in his bones, so to speak, felt something missing. These internal reflections even without the benefit of any definitive concept of what a woman, a helper, a human friend would be like, were affecting his happiness even in the presence of the Almighty.

It is interesting to note here that God, for His own good pleasure, desired the companionship of man. Apparently man exhibited an innate predisposition for human companionship also. We see that inherent in the nature of man, despite the walks in a perfect garden and his personal relationship with God, Adam had the desire for fellowship with his “kind”.

The command was given to Adam not to eat from the tree. The serpent targeted Eve. Was Adams choice to disobey God, an act of free will, or was it imprinted in his genome? Is God simply a puppet master? Of course not. Was the cause of his disobedience an overwhelming desire to please this magnificently enthralling creature an unavoidable response? (This was Eve, personally created by the Lord God, not some toad spewing primordial muck through pursed toad lips, wearily dragging herself out of ancient slime, envisioning a future in which she would evolve into a beautiful princess worthy of such a man.) Or, was he simply interested in the fruit itself? Was it doubt, as to whether any harsh or lasting consequences would be forthcoming? Did he choose lovely Eve and some forbidden fruit in the perfect garden setting, or did he have no choice at all? No autonomy.

Those who assert the principal of causal determinism, or Calvinism have no option but to proclaim his innocence for he was simply a small twig caught in the cascading currents of time. If so, why judge him harshly, or at all. Adam could have done no differently. He was predestined to fail. Not so. He was built with the ability to choose, and the Maker knew only one person would ever live a faultless life. If he was indeed innocent, why was he punished? Perhaps it really just a setup? A setup essential for the perfecting of the saints. The Lamb being slain before the foundations of the earth. Was it an essential process for the sanctification of the saints? Given that, “He (Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” 1 Peter, 1:20 And, “The lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth.” God foresaw the plot of Satan and made provision for it. The only other option is to believe that Satan outfoxed God. Didn’t happen.

Abraham was the father of a nation and many of his progeny are/were lost. Adam is the father of humankind. Is he culpable, responsible for the fallen condition of all men? Scripture says he is, yet I contend he was simply the man on the spot, and any man would have transgressed on some issue. Failed to dot an i. If before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he was held accountable for breaking a law, was this action the resulting banishment, cursed earth, pain in childbirth a precursor to the Law? Prior to the law there was no breaking of the law, yet men were judged and destroyed. What it gets down to is this, Do we have a choice?

We find that in the centuries prior to the law some men pleased God. They had the desire to know, believe and serve God without the need for written rules. We find that in Romans some still may. They have a law within themselves. Romans, 2:14

The idea that free agency and free will, provide within themselves adequate separation of purpose to constitute different entities is an exercise in a futile and never ending debate in semantics. Free will does not exist without the agent, and the agent, made in the image of God, cannot exist without free will. He is reduced to life as a zombie android. A cheap, plastic wind up toy, bouncing off the interior walls of a puppet masters cardboard box as the wagon rattles along.

God cannot lie, His record states He chose to create in His image, man with free agency. The directive, “Do not eat this fruit” presupposes Adam has the option of eating it. Gods will is evidenced in His decision to create man despite the foreknowledge that Adam would fail. Adam made a choice. Our God is the driving constant in the lives of His children, yet who among us has not made poor choices?

The call has gone out. Attendance is free. Many have heard the call. The acceptable response is to accept. I believe we have a choice, to embrace grace. To allow the Spirit of God to graft us onto the root, the foundation of our faith that we may produce His fruit. “That He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” Romans 9:23

If God is not willing that any should perish, then apparently He is not exerting His will over his creation.

He is compelling.

He is assisting.

He is calling.

He is loving, supporting.

He has offered Himself as a bridge, giving His Son.

But, He is not forcing.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

He owns the destination. He determined the course. Paved the way, has first aid stations everywhere you would possibly need one. He paid the entry fee. Will carry you when you fall, Shield you from attack and open escape route, encourage, support, comfort,, defend love and never leave you. There are some who rightfully argue, “God knew/knows a mans/Adams existence prior to his life and death.” True, yet the ability to choose Him, is an integral aspect of Adams perfection. God had a plan of redemption before creation. This fact is evidence of His love for His creation. And, His desire for reason and communion with mankind. He desired true love, not slavish, sycophantic behavior, enough to make the ultimate sacrifice while mankind yet remained a concept.

You must believe and have faith to recognize Him. Trust, repent, turn from self control and hand over the reins. True love requires the choice, the desire to know, to commune and walk as brothers of the Son, with our Maker.

Casual determinism is a philosophy the worlds scholars have kicked back and forth for centuries and with advances in science it will gain in popularity. “It’s not my fault, It’s just the way I’m wired.” Scripture tells us there will be no excuse. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. Romans, 1:20

We can kick predestination around till Christ returns and those who believe we have no free will and chose God will enter right along with those who choose to love serve and thank Christ for His overwhelming support and work in our hearts will be there right alongside them,. Because we all make that choice every day by the grace of God.
We are more than cells, more than pre-programmed particles. Calvinists may desire to believe in casual determinism, but we become more than the sum of our chemistry, when God breathes the spirit of life into us. Genesis, 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.“ The physical components of our natural containers were complete yet remained uninhabited, unanimated until God imbued life.

We are not a body, it is a vehicle designed to support a spirit. It is a vehicle in which a new soul has experiences to live and choices to make. We are exhorted to exercise control over our body, our nature, our flesh, not to simply respond to, or follow natural impulses, proclivities and stimuli. We do not drift downstream.

 

[Clare73]

There was no nation of Israel until Abraham and some men pleased God.

Jesus statements were made in the context of the Israel of the Mosaic Covenant.

There was no saving righteousness before the cross for anyone.
There was only delayed justice for unrighteousness until the cross (Romans 3:25).

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think that "logically" an all powerful God most certainly "could" limit Himself to making nothing more than pre-programmed robots. Some of whom He programs to take His name in vain and others that He does not program that way. An all knowing all powerful God "could" do that -- possibly to setup the impression , the pretense that He had some sort of opposition.

Could "could" have spoken words about what He is doing in that regard that make it very clear to His pre-programmed robots that this is His way.

But Given that His own Word says He is doing the very opposite of that AND that He is just and true - then in that case it is not logical at all for Him to go against His own Word on that point.

I'm not at all sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying that I (or someone) is suggesting that we are robots? Is it a given that if all is predetermined that robotics is implied?

 

[Palmfever]

Jesus statements were made in the context of the Israel of the Mosaic Covenant.

There was no saving righteousness before the cross for anyone.
There was only delayed justice for unrighteousness until the cross (Romans 3:25).

No saving self righteousness true. For, "The just shall live by faith."And that faith was their cloak of righteousness just as it is today for us. Before the law against sin, "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." Men were called righteous in the old testament because they looked forward, they believed, they had faith. God bragged about Job to Satan.
Job, 1:1. In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. Verse 8. Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
Faith
When Christ came to earth it was, 'The fullness of time'. God is outside of time. It is a construct of the natural universe. "The lamb slain before the foundations of the earth."
Jonah, 3:7.
This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:
“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

Why did Jonah run?
"I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." (He changes His mind. If He didn't prayer would be futile and foolish.) He implies they are nothing but a bunch of dummies. "more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left."
Before Adam someone else exercised free will, Satan.
God created angels and humans with a mind of their own. We are in His image and I believe He thinks for Himself.
I like your expression of faith and consider from what I see here, you as a sister. This causal determinism deception pushed by Calvin however is not scriptural.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Iron clad determinism does not allow for a freewill system because it has no concept that accounts for free will.

Why call it Iron Clad? Does not determinism mean the same thing? Why call it free will? Does not simple 'will' mean the same thing? You think they logically oppose each other because (I think) your notion of valid choice is based entirely on the virtue or dignity or worth of the chooser as a real being, "therefore, not a robot".

This reminds me of the claim that God gives human individuals some sort of 'limited autonomy'. If one thinks of robots, then the term is valid, but that is not the use they mean, who say that. Such autonomy as they suppose for human individuals is not dependent on programming upon which they run their course, but on a LACK of programming, indeed, if autonomous at all, it is a lack of causation. "Limited Autonomy" is logically self-contradictory.

If you say this fallen person accepted the Gospel while an identical fallen person next to him rejected the Gospel - the all-is-determined/planned/programmed model only has one source for that result... "God did it", God programmed one to accept and the other to reject.

There are no identical people. But your hypothetical well demonstrates your thinking --you want to blame the sinner for rejecting God, and you find yourself unable to do so if God caused all things to happen exactly as they do. That is due to the value humanistically placed on the individual as somebody in-and-of-himself, while the Bible insists on our utter dependence on God for our very being.

You push them all into a package, as though any one of them implies nobody actually chooses. 'Pre-determined', even 'Pre-caused', can mean quite a bit more than 'Pre-programmed' can, and need not stir up the same sentiments. I don't claim that God has no ability and no right to pre-program, should he choose to do so, but if pre-programming necessarily implies no will of moral agents, then they are not moral agents. But it is not that way-- instead, pre-determination is a word to describe the mere fact that all things are caused to come to pass before they actually do come to pass. It implies (for those who believe in God), and rightly so, the fact that GOD is the one pre-determining, (though an atheist might substitute the term "First Cause" for "God", and try to remove any notions of personhood, he still believes in pre-determination).

The Bible uses the term, Predestination to say exactly that. It also implies, in the minds of some, a different use --and here is perhaps the meat of why some rail against it-- the humanistic notion that God has a destiny in mind for each of us and it is our job to figure out what it is and pursue it. This pursuit is even called obedience, in some circles, and implied disobedience if not pursued! They limit the meaning of predestination to God only causing so much, and the rest is up to us. Flip-side, God (to them) has predetermined only Certain Sure Things, such as The Eventual End of Man, etc, leaving all else to the fickle will of man, interposing only now and then to keep the ship more or less on course. That notion is illogical, if cause-and-effect is logical. First Cause caused everything else. There can be no other first cause.

 

[Clare73]

No saving self righteousness true. For, "The just shall live by faith."And that faith was their cloak of righteousness just as it is today for us.

The NT knows no "cloak of righteousness." It knows only righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed, reckoned, credited to, accounted to, not earned by, those in Christ through saving faith, both in the OT through faith in the Promise (Genesis 15:5), which was Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16), and in the NT, through faith in Jesus Christ (the Promise).

In the OT, all those of faith in the Promise were justified freely by that faith, as was Abraham (Genesis 15:6), and righteousness was imputed, credited to them, no works involved.

Before the law against sin, "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." Men were called righteous in the old testament because they looked forward, they believed, they had faith. God bragged about Job to Satan.
Job, 1:1. In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. Verse 8. Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
Faith
When Christ came to earth it was, 'The fullness of time'. God is outside of time. It is a construct of the natural universe. "The lamb slain before the foundations of the earth."
Jonah, 3:7.
This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:
“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

Why did Jonah run?
"I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." (He changes His mind. If He didn't prayer would be futile and foolish.) He implies they are nothing but a bunch of dummies. "more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left."
Before Adam someone else exercised free will, Satan.
God created angels and humans with a mind of their own. We are in His image and I believe He thinks for Himself.
I like your expression of faith and consider from what I see here, you as a sister. This causal determinism deception pushed by Calvin however is not scriptural.

 

[BobRyan]

None of which necessarily means ability to all.

Since supernatural drawing of God = enabled to come to Christ -

And yet: "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

So then -- John 12:32 "I will draw all mankind unto me" means enabled.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Iron clad determinism does not allow for a freewill system because it has no concept that accounts for freewill.

Why call it Iron Clad? Does not determinism mean the same thing? Why call it free will? Does not simple 'will' mean the same thing?

If the will is enslaved it is not free.

You think they logically oppose each other because (I think) your notion of valid choice is based entirely on the virtue or dignity or worth of the chooser as a real being, "therefore, not a robot".

The fact that a bird can fly is not because of the "worth" or "virtue" of the bird. It is an ability God gives.

This reminds me of the claim that God gives human individuals some sort of 'limited autonomy'. If one thinks of robots, then the term is valid, but that is not the use they mean, who say that. Such autonomy as they suppose for human individuals is not dependent on programming upon which they run their course, but on a LACK of programming, indeed, if autonomous at all, it is a lack of causation.

It simply means "God did not cause Hitler to take God's name in vain" each time he did so.

"Limited Autonomy" is logically self-contradictory.

Not if one accepts freewill as the teaching of the bible where "He came to His OWN and His OWN received him not" John 1:11 instead of "so of course His OWN had no other choice but to receive Him".

There are no identical people. But your hypothetical well demonstrates your thinking

Thank you. I try my best.

--you want to blame the sinner for rejecting God,

as opposed to blaming God for what sinners do?

The Bible does not support blaming God -
"He came to His OWN and His OWN received him not" John 1:11

God's own lament in Isaiah 5:4 only works in a freewill system that God sovereignly chose
Isaiah 5:4 "WHAT MORE could I have done than that which I have already done???"

So also in the case of Christ's lament in Matt 23 "O Jerusalem Jerusalem... how I wanted... but you would not"

'Pre-determined', even 'Pre-caused', can mean quite a bit more than 'Pre-programmed' can, and need not stir up the same sentiments. I don't claim that God has no ability and no right to pre-program, should he choose to do so, but if pre-programming necessarily implies no will of moral agents, then they are not moral agents. But it is not that way-- instead, pre-determination is a word to describe the mere fact that all things are caused to come to pass before they actually do come to pass.

"God causing Hitler to take God's name in vain" is not the kind of model we find in the Bible.

Instead we see things like this

Isaiah 5:4 "WHAT MORE could I have done than that which I have already done???"

and we see 2 Cor 5 "We BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God"

Paul did not write "We beg GOD on behalf of Christ to CAUSE you to be reconciled to God"

Ezek 18:
30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”

2 Peter 3:9 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

The problem with cold determinism -- is the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

In the OT, all those of faith in the Promise were justified freely by that faith, as was Abraham (Genesis 15:6), and righteousness was imputed, credited to them, no works involved.

agreed.

 

[BobRyan]

.. pre-determination is a word to describe the mere fact that all things are caused to come to pass before they actually do come to pass. It implies (for those who believe in God), and rightly so, the fact that GOD is the one pre-determining.... (others) limit the meaning of predestination to God only causing so much, and the rest is up to us.

The Bible says - God predestines according to His foreknowledge

Rom 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;

Just as the elect are elected according to foreknowledge of God:

1 Peter 1:
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Flip-side, God (to them) has predetermined only Certain Sure Things, such as The Eventual End of Man, etc, leaving all else to the fickle will of man, interposing only now and then to keep the ship more or less on course.

So like Adam and Eve predetermined to remain faithful but then they of their own freewill chose rebellion and failure.

That notion is illogical, if cause-and-effect is logical. First Cause caused everything else. There can be no other first cause.

So then God "Caused" Adam to sin?

 

[renniks]

But I ask you --is God not the one being damaged by our sin? Why do we think so much of ourselves that we have room to complain? He doesn't need us to justify him.

Lol, so God is causing the sin that hurts God?
Calvinism just gets more absurd.

 

[Clare73]

Since supernatural drawing of God = (supernatural) enabled to come to Christ -

Drawing and enabling are not the same thing.

 

[BobRyan]

Lol, so God is causing the sin that hurts God?
Calvinism just gets more absurd.

Indeed there is "the rub". God had to submit himself to torture and the "torment and suffering" of the second death owed for each sin by each one of humanity - on the cross - to save mankind - so then it makes no sense to then claim that God "caused" each of the sins that He is then to be tormented for - on the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

Drawing and enabling are not the same thing.

hmmm.. John 6:44 comes to mind.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

So then who is "drawn"??

John 12:32 "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me" -- all mankind drawn - as the supernatural work of God Himself.

And the supernatural drawing of God - enables all the "choice" to accept the Gospel - that depravity disabled.

the "Drawing" of 6:44 is the enabling of 6:65

Clare73 said: ↑
And yet: "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)