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For those who have or do doubt God exists

Discussion in 'Obsessive Compulsive Disorder' started by raven1, Jan 1, 2012.

  1. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    Do you REALLY doubt he exists? Or deep down you know he does. If God choose you to be saved when he created you, you would not doubt.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2012
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  2. Anonymous User

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    Raven,

    I guess John the Baptist went to Hell by your standards because he sent his followers to ask Jesus if He was really the Christ. John needed this reassurance; he DOUBTED that Jesus was real.

    God would not ever create someone who is incapable of being saved. That is impossible to believe, because that would make God evil, of which He is the very opposite and incapable of doing. God created us so that we could choose to love Him and make that decision on our own. No one and nothing can take that decision away from you. YOU are the only one who can keep yourself from being saved, and that would be by not choosing to trust in Christ.

    God does not hold you nor anyone else, whether OCD or not, responsible for doubts. It is what we DO with those doubts that matters. You seem to be pessimistically unable to accept this. WHY? Why do you refuse to take courage in this matter? Can you help me understand? You must make the decision to accept a solution to your problem that will not quench all your fears and obsessions. That quenching will only happen through therapy and medicine. Otherwise you will be stuck in this never-ending loop.

    Raven, I know that you're going through a hard time and that things seem hopeless, but please do other doubters the decency of not dragging them down with this pessimism. I know that this is what seems real and logical to you, but your idea of salvation is not supported biblically at all, and robs people of their hope. You are taking a dismal idea that is strongly tainted in the illogic of your disorder and your choice to take the unoptimistic road. The truth is, you ARE able to believe while doubting. You must, for your own sake and others', make the decision to accept this if you ever want things to get better.
     
  3. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    You have yet to tell me how to trust while doubting. In your periods of doubt how do trust
    What actions am I supposed to take? So you are saying I am not saved. By the way I do appreciate your help. It is just contradictory to me the message of Christianity to believe to be saved and you can doubt and still be saved
    How do I know you are right. When I asked you before how to trust even in doubt you said you didn't know how yourself.
    Do u really doubt God in your heart and head. Now I afraid I am going to hell because I thought about trusting and thought not trusting wont get me anywhere if 2012 is gonna happen or if I trust God maybe it will get me inyo heaven worrying accomplshes nothing. Not oh I should just trust
    I had to way that out and see if it was worth it in other areas :(
    Also isn't it Pascals wager to doubt he exists but trust in case. Doubting and trusting or opposites how can you snuff out one or the other.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  4. Anonymous User

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    Raven,

    Thanks for clearing that up for me!

    Trust obviously isn't something you physically do. It is merely a decision you make. All you have to do is say that you trust Jesus to be real and to be your one and only savior no matter what you feel and to keep this decision and not change your mind. It's like saying you're a Red Sox fan even when you're angry with how they perform in the most recent games or don't like their manager. You're not 'physically' being a fan; you're just making the decision to be a fan of their and not change your mind no matter what. Believing in Jesus is the same way. Jesus may not seem real, and you may have tons of doubts about Him, but you must decide to say, "these doubts are not true and I trust Jesus as reality." You hold that decision and do not change it. When you entertain a doubt in your mind, are you any less saved? Of course not! As long as you trust that there is an answer to that doubt that you just are unable to see at the moment and may never see until you reach Heaven, not changing your mind that you have decided Jesus to be real, you are saved. It's just like walking out onto that rope bridge or glass platform. You can definitely have doubts and fears enter your mind as you cross! You can have almost no feeling of confidence that what you're walking on will hold up at all. But the grit of the matter is whether you decide to keep walking or turn around. I don't think Christianity is POSSIBLE without doubt, just as freedom is impossible without the ability to do wrong. God wants us to make the CHOICE to DECIDE in Him, despite our doubts, thoughts, and feelings. Simon Peter, John the Baptist, the apostle Thomas - these were all monumental Christians who faced doubt but chose to trust Christ anyway!

    I definitely doubt, Raven. I promise you that. The very reason I've been offline for a few days is because of the problems my mind has been causing me. But I always revert back to this same truth: That faith CANNOT exist without doubt.

    Have you ever seen the Polar Express? The main character child is transported to the North Pole, where he has every bit of evidence to show him that Santa Clause is real. Yet even when he sees Santa Clause himself, the boy does not believe! He has every resource to convince him that Santa is real. But because he does not WANT to believe in Santa Clause, he does not believe. It is only when he holds the silver bell and makes the decision, "I believe," that he truly believes. It is a huge misconception that believing is 'seeing' or 'knowing for sure'. But ultimately, belief comes down with what we choose to go with. We have an extensive amount of incredible evidence of Christ's reality. If you read all of Lee Strobel's stuff alone, you will either have to be an OCD person or else someone who does not WANT to believe in Christ to have trouble accepting these facts. But just as at the beginning of Polar Express, when the little boy looks up facts in a book to prove to himself that the North Pole is merely a wasteland, we can take very convincing-sounded arguments from atheists and choose to go with those.

    I don't know about Pascal, Raven. I only know about the man in Mark 9 who says to Jesus, "I believe, but will you help my unbelief?" I know John the Baptist, who sent his disciples to ask Jesus, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?” I know Peter, who began to sink in the waves. Are these people not saved?
     
  5. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    You must believe Christianity over Athiesm or agnosticism. Otherwise you would not be able to choose to believe. These are two opposing feelings trust( aka belief ) and doubt. Either you have more doubt or more belief you can't just negate what you really feel.
     
  6. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    I am not trying to be mean. I just want to be saved. You don't think I am?
     
  7. Anonymous User

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    You absolutely must believe in Christianity, and denying your doubts or feelings is neither healthy nor productive. It's just a question of what 'belief' is. You must try to accept that you CAN believe while doubting. I think it's impossible for anyone, OCD or not, not to doubt at at least some point in their walk in faith. If they haven't doubted, they only like the idea of God, but don't really believe in the really God, or else they've got no intelligence and have never had anything bad happened to them, or have never met or talked with anyone from any other belief. I know you're not trying to be mean, and I know your struggle. It's hard to get out of that loop of thinking and have your anxiety eased in just the way you expect it to be! Doubt and belief, though, are not the opposite of each other. The opposite of believing is not believing. Doubt is merely an obstacle that must be survived through. Do not deny your doubt's existence. Merely accept that it is there but refuse to put your trust in it. Because you are OCD, you won't feel an immediate release of anxiety. That will take therapy and meds. But you will have something on which you can build a more healthy understanding of salvation; your first step towards relief.
     
  8. Anonymous User

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    If you choose Jesus as your savior and have asked Him to save you, no matter your doubts or feelings, I believe you are saved.
     
  9. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    But see Au you are for Christianity so you are not really a doubter. You are over the hump into the it is most likely God exists area. To where I am in the I can't know area. That is why you can CHOOSE Christ. I really wish I was there.
     
  10. Anonymous User

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    So you do not choose Christ? You're confident enough in the "evidence" against Him that you can make a decision not to believe?

    I really think that if you convert to atheism your OCD will start terrifying you with evidence FOR Christ. Because you have OCD, Jesus is not going to seem very real at all. There are times when it DIDN'T seem like there was much evidence of Jesus to me. But you just have to trust that there is evidence out there, and that you are simply second-guessing it, not grasping it, have forgotten it, or are unaware of it. You have to make that decision despite how unrealistic it feels.

    It only takes faith the size of a mustard seed, Raven. It only takes the faith enough to just ask Him to be your savior. No one and nothing, no state of mind or understanding you are in, can take away your choice. There is no 'hump'. It is only Jesus: yes or no? How will you answer?
     
  11. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    I want him as my Savior. When I doubt what do I do say no I will not listen to this I choose God despite this doubt. My don't tells me he doesn't exist that atheists are right. If you read Pascals wager it if you doubt but believe in case Christ is there that is a Pascals wager. People on here have said they go to therapy to get better and stop doubting God exists all they are doing is perfecting Pascals wager. They doubt so they push away there doubts in hopes God is there. Or they really do not doubt.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  12. Anonymous User

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    Raven, you are saved! Please continue to deny the doubts as you are. You are on the right path, but you must attempt to get out of this Pascal wager loop that keeps tripping you up; it's incorrect, and does not correspond with what the Bible says about what faith and belief are. The more you try and refute Pascal, the deeper you're going to grind the obsession into your mind, and the harder it is going to be to get rid of that pretty-sounding philosophy dressed up as truth. You just have to work at removing it from your mind. You are saved, raven. It's just going to take work to convince yourself that you are. There is no one easy breath of fresh air in OCD; it's step by step.
     
  13. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't refute them though because how do you refute when your in that feeling that maybe God isn't there. When you are happy you dont stifle a smile. I just think he may be there so then I freak out and want to believe how does that make me saved?
     
  14. Anonymous User

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    You CAN refute them. That doesn't mean that they go away or feel less real. If someone runs up to you and screams, "KANGAROOS ARE TAKNG OVER THE WORLD!' and your mind makes you feel that they just might be right, do you just say, "Well, okay, then that's how it is!" Of course not! You can choose not to put any weight in the doubts, no matter how strong they are.
     
  15. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    Okay I get that and I do say to myself maybe he does exist to get the doubts out of my mind but it is ONLY because I get afraid hell might be there and it doesn't help the doubts I get no relief from them at all. How long have you doubted and does your heart doubt too. See I am afraid you really believe and I don't because you feel Christianity does make the most sense. Or are you like others on here that doubt that God and heaven exists but when you die if I does exists you will go there because you wanted to believe. Walk me through your thought process from doubting to refuting what does it look like? Mine looks like this, I can't know if God exists maybe he doesn't, maybe atheists are smarter they have good arguments, how can God create something from nothing, impossible, let me read some articles on atheism, OH NO what if God is real, i am going to hell,people have claimed to go to heaven and we have emotions that is a miracle, then I am at points were I still don't know but I am not freaking out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  16. Anonymous User

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    Raven,

    I'm glad to really see your thought process! :)

    I have doubted for about three years now, possibly even longer, and I'm positive they have been tremendously affected by OCD, though I only finally sought help and was thus officially diagnosed with it six months ago. Tonight I have even been tortured with some doubts. This is my thought process:

    Doubt pops in: Gee, the Bible sure sounds weird and like someone just made it up. What if it's all nothing more than a myth?

    Refutation I make: I know I have read a lot of evidence on the Bible's reality and wholeness. Even though I can't recall it at the moment, I choose to trust that the Bible proves true, no matter how much it feels to be made up.

    When the doubts keeps popping in my head, I am tempted to go and find evidence of God to read. This would be a compulsion. But I simply keep reminding myself: No matter how things look, I choose to come to the same conclusion: That the Bible is real; I just don't have all the information right now.

    Your conclusion should always be the same, even if 2 + 2 through Jesus seems to equal 17: Jesus is real.

    One thing I would suggest to you is to not get hung up on the 'maybe's. This is a trap that all OCD people get caught in: mine have been and continue to be the 'what if's'. Maybe God exists? Maybe Hell exists? Unless god in all His glory popped down right in front of you, you won't have 100% proof of Him. There is always a 'maybe' factor in faith. You have got to decide to be on the 'yes' side of that maybe and say, "I trust that it IS." And your OCD will always cause you to feel as though what you're doubting is more probable than what you want to believe. That doesn't make what is real any less real than how you feel about the reality of Switzerland affects the country's existence. Maybe atheists are smarter? Heck, yeah, I've met some atheists who are smarter than I am. Does that make them RIGHT? No. Atheists are biased and twist information to fit their agenda. Not to say that many Christians aren't, but proof of Jesus and God has stood against relentless and thorough tests and has yet to be proven wrong. Whereas atheists must believe that something came from nothing, that life and conscious were created from nothing, that life has no meaning or significance while every human calls out for it, that there is no such thing as right and wrong, and that all humans from all time who have believed in any kind of god are completely wrong.

    You have trouble seeing how God created something from nothing; the answer is that He IS existence. He IS. He wasn't created by anything, and I don't believe He created Himself. He IS existence. How does science answer the question that existence came from nothing? Science states that there must be a cause for everything. What was the cause for all causes? Who or what made the speck that was the beginning of the big bang? The ONLY plausible explanation is God.

    The thoughts on reading atheistic papers are caused by OCD. And of course your OCD mind is going to try and persuade you to believe what you don't want to believe.

    If someone WANTS to go to Heaven enough, they will find a way to believe.

    Faith is a lot less complicated than you are trying to make it. It is a one-step process. I think you have already taken that step, (though I am not God and I don't know what decision you have truly made); you just have to learn now how to be confident in your salvation, not how to be saved.

    Your 'heart' is a vague concept. Your heart can describe your emotions, which don't determine your salvation. I think the term heart can be used also to describe your will, and what choices you make and what you choose to accept and not accept; also what morals and values you hold true. Don't worry about your emotions, Raven. Only pay attention to what you have decided.

    Many days Christianity doesn't make the most sense to me at all. I don't want to tell you what my doubts are because I don't want YOU to get hung up on them, or else I would share in the specifics of my struggle with you. I do understand how thinking that the Bible is real and the only truth can seem so unreal, though. We tend to put God in a nut shell, though, making Him smaller than He really is. The truth is, Jesus is everywhere. He is worshiped specifically and purposefully in churches, Christian music, Christian communities, and Christian books and movies, etc., but He is not absent from Beatles songs, a shopping trip to GAP, an episode of Gilmore Girls, or your favorite Nicholas Sparks novel. Though He is not part of any kind of sin, He has such a bigger influence and reach than we can grasp. Christ has a way of reaching everyone in existence, and His presence and reality is more than we can understand. We just have to trust that He is there and real, no matter how we feel.
     
  17. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    I was really getting helP reading this until you said you can't know the decision I have made. How do I know if I made it?
     
  18. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    So when I get thoughts I just say I know God is real even though I don't feel that.
     
  19. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    You seem so confident in Christianity over atheism but you seem to hint you think about it to because you said Christianity doeant make sense. The choosing technique is that from a Christian counselor. I also feel unsaved because kathy griffith makes jokes about God I find funny but I don't want to. I s

    ill dont get the trust thing. If you doubt you can't trust also these are opposite ends of the spectrum.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  20. raven1

    raven1 Well-Known Member

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    If you trust you cannot doubt. If you refute the doubt because you want not to go to hell if it exists that is pascals wager. That is like saying the breaks in my car might not work but I will drive my car in the back of my mind I doubt that is not trust.
    Kerry sue said I sholdnt worry if this is ocd doubt what if that is the only forgivable kind? Also someone said man. Just says Gods not wrathful. What if Jesus is not God. Ahhhhhh I am going to hell.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
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