For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[mzungu]

Let me tell you it is mostly the Christian organizations that feed these hungry children of Africa. It is certainly NOT the moon god Allah nor is it their VooDod priests or their medicine men. It is also not their own dictator governments. They are the ones who are CAUSING their people to die of starvation... NOT GOD.

Not true. I was born and grew up in Africa.

I would suggest to you that it is NOT the Christians who serve the ONE TRUE GOD in Africa are not the ones starving to death. God takes care of HIS people.

This is not true. I have personally seen people die of hunger and they were true Christians.

Stop blaming God for things He didn't do or putting all the responsibility on Him for this world's problems. The world has their own god it is the prince of darkness. He is a dictator and a murderer.

Droughts, natural disasters, plagues, etc. ad infinitum; And yet you insist it is not God's work?

You live in your comfortable and plentiful world and yet you pass judgement on the poor and destitute as easily as waving your hand.

I am afraid that your words do more to dissuade people from Christianity than anything science can come up with.

800,000 Christians were slaughtered in Rwanda. Many were massacred in Churches by fellow Christians.

the death toll of WW1 run in the tens of millions and yet it was between Christian nations that conducted this slaughter.

WW2; Same story.

Hypocrites and Pharisees!

 

[Seamus Riley]

Understand the difference between asking for miracles on demand and asking that a greater number of miracles be observed. You seem to be insisting they're the same.

you are asking for more miracles as more proof from god, this may not be "on demand" as in right now, but they are on demand in the same sense that you are asking for them as proof. this is exactly what i've been talking about for days now. were we talking about typical prayer requests for say, dying aunt millie, i'd agree these are different, but you have very explicitly described the miracles you keep asking for as more proof of god's existence/divinity.

All you've said? I'm not seeing where you've discussed this in any depth at all.

my very first post on the subject establishes miracles being secondary to jesus' primary ministry

my second post continues the subject of forgiveness and remission of sin, but why god sometimes may not intervene miraculously

my third post elaborates further on the first post, all is relevant, but you can skip to the last paragraph

my sixth post, directed at you, point number 2, speaks again of god placing more importance on our eternal spiritual well being than our temporary physical well being which might be improved by miracles.

my ninth post, directed at you, elaborating again on the issue, citing another quote from jesus on the issue.

my tenth post, again directed at you...take notice that in all of these i haven't simply repeated myself, but have offered continuing elaboration, more and more verses.

for someone who claims that a few more miracles might help christianity's viability, why does more and more elaboration go virtually unnoticed as not "any depth at all"? am i to believe that you missed so many of these posts?

And yet people regularly asked Jesus for signs.
Goodness, the ask, seek, knock verse doesn't have any quantifiers on it.

they ask for many things with the confidence of matt 7:7, but if asking for signs as proof, along with the other verses i've cited, there's heb 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

So what if it can be argued? I'm not asking for definite proof, I never have, yet you keep insisting that am. Apologetics can be argued. The value of good deeds can be argued. So what if miracles can be argued? Why does the fact that something can be argued mean it's not permitted?

you have definitely asked for proof with signs, many times, but i never said you asked for "definite" proof, the qualifier was added by you just now. also, i have never said that miracles are not permitted. i would say you merely made an incorrect inference, except that i explicitly addressed this previously when you accused me of it before. at this point you are very obviously being dishonest and trying to falsely characterize my position.

I don't need it to do anything - Christianity is quite capable of being incoherent all on its ownio.

you're perfectly entitled to this opinion, but there are a lot of christians who totally get it. and no, i'm not supposing that any impressive amount must lend to authenticity of the religion itself, i simply mean that not everyone finds it incoherent.

You're oversimplifying this.

I think there is scope for more miracles in the Bible - I don't see anything that suggests that more shouldn't be seen - and again, that is not the same thing as saying that miracles should be on demand.

I disagree with you for saying that there isn't scope for this.

you keep saying this....please quote me where i said miracles don't happen today or that they shouldn't happen today so i can know that you are not simply being dishonest.

 

[Ar Cosc]

What you have said is blatantly ignorant. Africa is suffering because the lack God which leads to a lack of everything else.

Your statistics need some corrections. Uganda is not predominantly Christian it is predominently Roman Catholic. As I have said before and will say again. Catholicism is NOT REAL Christianity. Yes there are some Catholics who have committed their lives to the Lord but for the most part Catholics are just religious church goers without the foggiest clue as to the promises of God or His Kingdom. Many of them are also entrenched in idol worship. They pray to saints and to Mary who can do NOTHING for them. They where their little idols on their necks or put them in their cars and they wonder why they do not get their prayers answered. They are no different than any of the other non believing religions in the world. There is one God and only ONE.

Roman Catholic 41.9%, Protestant 42% (Anglican 35.9%, Pentecostal 4.6%, Seventh Day Adventist 1.5%), Muslim 12.1%, other 3.1%, none 0.9% NationMaster - Ugandan Religion statistics
So let's see from these stats at the most there might be 10% REAL Christians and then if you consider that probably only 3 or 4% of them really understand how to pray for their country that leaves you with about .003 of the population of Uganda. You will find that to be true for most statistics. To be more correct and clear they should say Roman Catholics rather than Christians in my opinion.

Also, the different conditions will be affected by the amount of witchcraft, voodoo, curses, spells, or lack thereof. The atheist communities or areas may not get into much of that so therefore they would not be affected in the same degree.

So Ireland (87% Roman Catholic) should, by your logic, be as badly-off as Uganda, if not worse. Things aren't great here, but it's hardly gotten to that stage.

Now, on to a point made by myself and a few other posters, what is the proportion of "True Christians (TM)" in countries such as the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark? Or Spain, or Italy? There is absolutely no correlation between being what you would call a True Christian, and economic prosperity.

It may all come back to Him but He is not to blame. Are parents to blame for their children's crimes or failures? You nor I know everything that works behind the scenes and what God is doing or not doing.

What I do know is that one day satan will be isolated from humanity. Why it is not now I do not know. I trust that God is the righteous judge and it will be right when it does happen. satan may be loose in the world but God never sent him to afflict men. As a matter of fact God has continually warned men to steer clear of him and anything to do with him. God has promised protection from him if they ask Him for it. It is not God's fault that they do not listen to Him.

Parents aren't to blame for their children's actions, but it is a fairly awful parent who would let their child starve to death for not loving them enough.

Are you talking about feeding them miraculously by dropping food down from heaven? What do you know of the ramifications of that? Anything? I certainly don't. Like it or not you may have some lofty ideas about what God could do but you have no idea the scope of anything you are speaking of here.

He could do it any way he wanted. Whatever the ramifications of plentiful food for everyone, there is pretty much no way it could be worse than millions starving to death, or killing each other over resources.

Incidentally, if all of Africa were to become True Christians tomorrow, how would God solve the situation? Presumably you think he'd be able to. So why would he be justified in withholding this cure just because people aren't worshipping him properly?

 

[Seamus Riley]

I used to ask God for advice all the time, not just to solve my own problems, but how to live my life the way he wanted me to. I always thought that if there was a God, he'd be more appreciative of genuine effort, than just following a precise ritual. As Cabal has said, God doesn't seem to want to make it easy to believe.

thanks for the elaboration. i try to judge only what is said and not read much more into it. there is nothing wrong with what you did in prayer and nothing wrong with the doubts you had. it takes genuine conviction and honesty with oneself to have great doubts about strongly held beliefs. after a long struggle with my own doubts, i spent about 10 years either hating god or disbelieving altogether and nothing any christian would say could convince me otherwise. i demanded proof from god alone and felt entitled to it. he was silent for nearly the entire period. there was a little something toward the end of that period. it was merely emotions as they related to thoughts about god as my intellect prevented me from considering that any thought that may come from god, actually came from god rather than my own head. for me, there was a lot of give and take in coming back to god, not an angel swooping down. i sought reconciliation for my doubts very earnestly and it took a lot of time. i'm not going to ask you to try any of these things. you should do what you feel is best. anyway, apologies if i went on too long about personal things. i noticed in other threads that you have been open about personal things, so i'd hoped mine might be welcome.

 

[Ar Cosc]

thanks for the elaboration. i try to judge only what is said and not read much more into it. there is nothing wrong with what you did in prayer and nothing wrong with the doubts you had. it takes genuine conviction and honesty with oneself to have great doubts about strongly held beliefs. after a long struggle with my own doubts, i spent about 10 years either hating god or disbelieving altogether and nothing any christian would say could convince me otherwise. i demanded proof from god alone and felt entitled to it. he was silent for nearly the entire period. there was a little something toward the end of that period. it was merely emotions as they related to thoughts about god as my intellect prevented me from considering that any thought that may come from god, actually came from god rather than my own head. for me, there was a lot of give and take in coming back to god, not an angel swooping down. i sought reconciliation for my doubts very earnestly and it took a lot of time. i'm not going to ask you to try any of these things. you should do what you feel is best. anyway, apologies if i went on too long about personal things. i noticed in other threads that you have been open about personal things, so i'd hoped mine might be welcome.

Of course, sure if I didn't enjoy discussing religion, it wouldn't be the best idea for me to be on Christian Forums.

Just on another note, I've got nothing against many versions of God, apart from the fact that I don't believe they exist! When I go ranting on about God being a tyrant, that's specifically aimed at those people who worship a God they believe punishes African babies with starvation for not being christian enough, for example.

 

[Seamus Riley]

Of course, sure if I didn't enjoy discussing religion, it wouldn't be the best idea for me to be on Christian Forums.

Just on another note, I've got nothing against many versions of God, apart from the fact that I don't believe they exist! When I go ranting on about God being a tyrant, that's specifically aimed at those people who worship a God they believe punishes African babies with starvation for not being christian enough, for example.

of course! i don't take it personally. i don't think atheism is stupid as some do. and yes, there are some people i choose not to argue with. i've got one of the funniest cats in the world in the other room and i'd rather go pet her.

 

[juvenissun]

Parents aren't to blame for their children's actions, but it is a fairly awful parent who would let their child starve to death for not loving them enough.

We should limit any discussion to one domain in order to make the discussion reasonable. Your comment went across two domains. That is why it sounds like a delimma.

You are talking about God, Who exists beyond our physical world, yet your reasoning limited God to our physical life. That is where the problem is.

 

[Seamus Riley]

Like Ar Cosc said, why isn't Europe suffering the same destitution? Estonia, Czech Republic, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France, Netherlands, Latvia, Slovenia, Iceland, and the UK all have <40% of their population believe in a God. So why are these places consistently on the "best places to live" lists? Apparently fountains of blessing don't necessarily follow high rates of belief in God and pain and suffering don't follow large rates of disbelief...

agreed. inan3, please see matt 5:45

 

[Ar Cosc]

We should limit any discussion to one domain in order to make the discussion reasonable. Your comment went across two domains. That is why it sounds like a delimma.

You are talking about God, Who exists beyond our physical world, yet your reasoning limited God to our physical life. That is where the problem is.

I was just countering Inan3's analogy, she was the one who brought up a parent and child scenario.

But in no reality or moral system could it ever be just to allow innocent people to starve to death, whereupon they would be subjected to eternal torture

 

[Hespera]

Not true. I was born and grew up in Africa.

This is not true. I have personally seen people die of hunger and they were true Christians.

Droughts, natural disasters, plagues, etc. ad infinitum; And yet you insist it is not God's work?

You live in your comfortable and plentiful world and yet you pass judgement on the poor and destitute as easily as waving your hand.

I am afraid that your words do more to dissuade people from Christianity than anything science can come up with.

800,000 Christians were slaughtered in Rwanda. Many were massacred in Churches by fellow Christians.

the death toll of WW1 run in the tens of millions and yet it was between Christian nations that conducted this slaughter.

WW2; Same story.

Hypocrites and Pharisees!

The extreme and strident positions taken by some christians definitely do not make me want to be part of their club.

Though really, the complete lack of any actual thought or knowledge that it takes to believe something like noahs ark is more than enough in itself.

 

[Hespera]

you are asking for more miracles as more proof from god,

for someone who claims that a few more miracles might help christianity's viability, why does more and more elaboration go virtually unnoticed as not "any depth at all"? am i to believe that you missed so many of these posts?

..........simply being dishonest.

Not that this was directed to me, but..

I wouldnt ask for a 'few more miracles". Just one would do fine.

Lots of claims; usually things that should embarrass the most backward and credulous.

The rest simply have zero evidence to support them.

Who is being dishonest?

 

[Cabal]

you are asking for more miracles as more proof from god, this may not be "on demand" as in right now, but they are on demand in the same sense that you are asking for them as proof. this is exactly what i've been talking about for days now. were we talking about typical prayer requests for say, dying aunt millie, i'd agree these are different, but you have very explicitly described the miracles you keep asking for as more proof of god's existence/divinity.

And we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. There is a difference here, but you insist on treating my stance as a vending machine God, which I've time and time again said is not what I'm after. I'm not talking about miracles for me, all I'm saying is that more should occur. That's the entirety of my point, and I've said it in that form several times now.

my very first post on the subject establishes miracles being secondary to jesus' primary ministry

my second post continues the subject of forgiveness and remission of sin, but why god sometimes may not intervene miraculously

my third post elaborates further on the first post, all is relevant, but you can skip to the last paragraph

my sixth post, directed at you, point number 2, speaks again of god placing more importance on our eternal spiritual well being than our temporary physical well being which might be improved by miracles.

my ninth post, directed at you, elaborating again on the issue, citing another quote from jesus on the issue.

my tenth post, again directed at you...take notice that in all of these i haven't simply repeated myself, but have offered continuing elaboration, more and more verses.

for someone who claims that a few more miracles might help christianity's viability, why does more and more elaboration go virtually unnoticed as not "any depth at all"? am i to believe that you missed so many of these posts?

Oh those. I just disagreed with them. Then you either misread my response or dismissed them. Opinion isn't really that impressive for helping Christianity's viability - they're two-a-penny in any church.

they ask for many things with the confidence of matt 7:7

So what's the problem here then? Why not more miracles? Or should that verse contain a mass of fine print?

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

And I don't for one second believe this is true, because there are plenty of testimonies out there of people who came with this attitude and didn't find God.

And I still think it's hooey even if you do believe, the bar seems to be set needlessly high.

you have definitely asked for proof with signs, many times, but i never said you asked for "definite" proof, the qualifier was added by you just now. also, i have never said that miracles are not permitted. i would say you merely made an incorrect inference, except that i explicitly addressed this previously when you accused me of it before. at this point you are very obviously being dishonest and trying to falsely characterize my position.

For someone who has repeatedly been misreading my posts, I'd watch who you accuse of being dishonest here - the same could quite easily be levelled at you. Keep it civil, kid.

Now, address the point - anything can be argued against, apologetics, reasons for good deeds etc., so why is that a problem for miracles but not for anything else?

you're perfectly entitled to this opinion, but there are a lot of christians who totally get it. and no, i'm not supposing that any impressive amount must lend to authenticity of the religion itself, i simply mean that not everyone finds it incoherent.

I'm sure they think they do, but they have to go through quite the maze of rationalisation to get there.

you keep saying this....please quote me where i said miracles don't happen today or that they shouldn't happen today so i can know that you are not simply being dishonest.

Er....except that wasn't even what I was saying in the quote. Are you sure you're even reading what you put in quote marks before you respond to it?

 

[Hespera]

And we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. There is a difference here, but you insist on treating my stance as a vending machine God, which I've time and time again said is not what I'm after. I'm not talking about miracles for me, all I'm saying is that more should occur. That's the entirety of my point, and I've said it in that form several times now.



Oh those. I just disagreed with them. Then you either misread my response or dismissed them. Opinion isn't really that impressive for helping Christianity's viability - they're two-a-penny in any church.



So what's the problem here then? Why not more miracles? Or should that verse contain a mass of fine print?



And I don't for one second believe this is true, because there are plenty of testimonies out there of people who came with this attitude and didn't find God.

And I still think it's hooey even if you do believe, the bar seems to be set needlessly high.



For someone who has repeatedly been misreading my posts, I'd watch who you accuse of being dishonest here - the same could quite easily be levelled at you. Keep it civil, kid.

Now, address the point - anything can be argued against, apologetics, reasons for good deeds etc., so why is that a problem for miracles but not for anything else?



I'm sure they think they do, but they have to go through quite the maze of rationalisation to get there.



Er....except that wasn't even what I was saying in the quote. Are you sure you're even reading what you put in quote marks before you respond to it?

I'm not talking about miracles for me, all I'm saying is that more should occur. That's the entirety of my point, and I've said it in that form several times now.

By this do you mean that some have occurred? Could I please hear what they are?

 

[Cabal]

By this do you mean that some have occurred? Could I please hear what they are?

Ask Seamus. I'm assuming that the ones in the Bible have occurred for the purpose of the discussion.

 

[Doveaman]

But in no reality or moral system could it ever be just to allow innocent people to starve to death

Are you saying all governments are immoral and unjust, including yours?

 

[Ar Cosc]

Are you saying all governments are immoral and unjust, including yours?

Yes, and the degree of immorality and injustice increases with the amount you can do about it. I could feed a few tens of people out of my earnings, at the cost of some personal luxury. Ireland could feed a few tens of millions, at the cost of higher taxes. God could feed every single person in an instant, but doesn't. I'm not a great person for not giving more to charity, but then again, nobody's upholding me as the perfect moral standard for the universe.

 

[Doveaman]

Yes, and the degree of immorality and injustice increases with the amount you can do about it.

Perhaps God cannot do anything about it since it would violate His eternal purpose and such a violation would degrade Him as God since He would be violating His own purpose.

I could feed a few tens of people out of my earnings, at the cost of some personal luxury. Ireland could feed a few tens of millions, at the cost of higher taxes. God could feed every single person in an instant, but doesn't. I'm not a great person for not giving more to charity, but then again, nobody's upholding me as the perfect moral standard for the universe.

I see what you mean. Fair enough.

 

[Hespera]

Yes, and the degree of immorality and injustice increases with the amount you can do about it. I could feed a few tens of people out of my earnings, at the cost of some personal luxury. Ireland could feed a few tens of millions, at the cost of higher taxes. God could feed every single person in an instant, but doesn't. I'm not a great person for not giving more to charity, but then again, nobody's upholding me as the perfect moral standard for the universe.

Are "adam and eve', then, to be taken as the greatest criminals of all time, maybe the greatest possible criminals?

THEY supposedly caused all of the trouble that has followed.

 

[Doveaman]

Are "adam and eve', then, to be taken as the greatest criminals of all time, maybe the greatest possible criminals?

THEY supposedly caused all of the trouble that has followed.

Sure, blame your parents.

 

[Cabal]

Sure, blame your parents.

You're right, we should blame the god who thinks that it's acceptable to punish the children for the sins of the father.