For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[CaliforniaSun]

Let me see them I shall not believe unless I see them in my hands and with my own eyes.

Fine by me.

 

[Upisoft]

So why are you bothered if God loves evil, His definition may be different to yours?

If you insert here the assertion that God created us in his image and likeness, you may get a clue.

 

[Inan3]

Was this addressed to me? It just seems to be random babble. (I accuse? What?...Dark side? What?)

I can't quite see what your post has to do with my encouraging your first tentative steps towards learning something about the history of the gospels, but now that you've got whatever it was that you wanted say off your chest, I hope you look into the history a little more deeply. It's interesting stuff.

Oh aren't we just the cutest little bundle of innocence!! How sweet!!

 

[Skavau]

Tomatoman, You have no idea what you are talking about. Typical atheistic rhetoric, though, right out of the manual. On one side you accuse Christians of never admitting they are wrong and then on the other side when they do you almost pee your pants thinking they are coming over to the dark side. I make mistakes all the time and it isnt' because I have doubts that I admit them.

Do you literally consider atheism the "dark side"?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

That's not a relationship!! When you KNOW someone that is a relatiionship. When you LOVE someone that is a relationship. Not going someplace and giving it your best shot!!

Once again, you're denying my experience. Please read up on the No True Scotsman fallacy. You have no right to claim that I was not sincere with my beliefs, and frankly, I find it extremely offensive and revealing of your poor moral character to do so.

The universe does not behave differently than what the Bible says.

The universe was not created in 6 days some <10,000 thousand years ago with all the current forms of animals created independently. The earth is ~4 billion years old, the universe is ~14 billion years old, and life on earth evolved from a common ancestor. This is reality. You can believe that your holy book trumps this, but then you will be forced to admit that all science is fundamentally flawed (even the science that allows you to take metformin and a beta-blocker).

You can't come up with anything but rebellion. You can't even see how faulty that is. You and millions of others all coming up with THEIR OWN "system of morality" all conflicting with one another and warring with one another because each one doesn't agree with the other's "system of morality". It would be funny if it weren't the world's own current "system of morality" and you see where that has taken them. You would like to blame all the world's problems on God and Christians but in actuality you don't see how duped you are by all these deceivers gone out into the world, hiding behind the scenes and laughing at you. God is your only source of hope because if you don't watch out you will be destroyed or brought down by your own fellows. Watch your back in this day or you will fall.

I fail to see what your scaremongering has to do with morality. I am morally superior to the God of the Bible. My ten commandments would include provisions against rape, child abuse, and slavery. Apparently your God doesn't think of those as very important issues.

That's why you should stick to reading the Word and listen to Jesus. He is the way.

Jesus is not the answer when I am doing scientific research or studying. I am in medical school right now, and all of the research that makes patients' lives better is because of science, and nothing else. I refuse to let dogma trump science.

Science is the only reason you've lived to your 60s. Vaccination and antibiotics got you to middle age, and I would venture to bet you've got at least a couple chronic conditions you're being treated for like hypertension, cholesterol, or hyperglycemia. You have science to thank for the fact that you're alive.

Mixed up understanding. God never asks His followers to distrust science and reason. He only asks them to trust Him and not rely only on man's understanding.

God's instructions for treating leprosy include smearing blood on your house and doing a chant. Man's instructions are a regimen of antibiotics. I think I'll go with man on this one. When's the last time God gave us a vaccine? When you talk about "man's understanding", you're talking about science. Don't try and muddy words in order to make it okay for you to accept the science you like and reject the science you don't like.

What you need to realize is that these are all YOUR OWN CHOICES to disbelieve. These are not realizations these are choices. Your realization of all these things is your choice to believe the lies of others. The word of God clearly speaks about this.

These are observations I made, personally, through soul-searching, reading the Bible, reading history, and using logic.

Another lie that has been perpetrated and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Actually, Christians told me that one. My literary studies professor (an elder in his church) dashed all the preconceived notions of the Biblical literalists in my class by telling us the straight story about the Bible and its formation. Even conservative theologians these days accept the Documentary Hypothesis.

These are all things YOU CHOOSE to believe. I have heard all the same things and I can see all the flaws in them but that is the difference again between you and me. You will NEVER see the truth as long as you turn from God. You will be deceived and you won't even know it because you are DECEIVED.

I'm just following the evidence. Ever heard of the Epic of Gilgamesh? The Genesis authors ripped off the flood story. Ever heard of the Egyptian Book of the Dead? The Exodus authors ripped it off for the ten commandments. You are seriously naive about your beliefs, and I doubt you have ever read any objective scholarly critique of the Bible or Christianity. Not that I want to burst the bubble for you. I just want you to realize that I had mine burst.

And remember - I am completely open to the existence of God, should God decide to show himself or herself or itself to me. I am just waiting for God to do so. My heart is open. There is nothing I'd like more for a benevolent creator to exist, and that I'd have a chance to see my lost loved ones again. But I'd rather accept reality than live a delusion. So until God shakes me up, my heart will never be in it. I can't fake belief; I'm not that kind of person.

And then you'll just reply by saying I'm a deceived fool who accepted Satan's lies and never was a Christian or some other immature reply like that.

See ... there are YOUR words again. YOU said you were RAISED a Christian... you didn't say you WERE a Christian. That's where your understanding is ALL wrong. Just living in a Christian home, going to a Christian church, trying to do all Christian things does not make you a Christian. Many people make THAT mistake. Being a Christian means being BORN AGAIN. BORN in the SPIRIT. It's an EXPERIENCE in the heart not some "works" you do. Being a Christian is KNOWING Christ not knowing ABOUT Christ.

I'll give you this, at least you admitted, you were twisting the words to make a joke/jab.

I am getting pretty sick and tired of you doubting my sincerity. Please stop.

 

[AV1611VET]

Once again, you're denying my experience. Please read up on the No True Scotsman fallacy. You have no right to claim that I was not sincere with my beliefs, and frankly, I find it extremely offensive and revealing of your poor moral character to do so.

I can't remember if I asked you this before -- (sorry, if I have) -- but would you tell us why, at one time, you ...

Hebrews 6:4b ... were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

... then turned your back on all that?

 

[sandwiches]

You can't come up with anything but rebellion. You can't even see how faulty that is. You and millions of others all coming up with THEIR OWN "system of morality" all conflicting with one another and warring with one another because each one doesn't agree with the other's "system of morality". It would be funny if it weren't the world's own current "system of morality" and you see where that has taken them. You would like to blame all the world's problems on God and Christians but in actuality you don't see how duped you are by all these deceivers gone out into the world, hiding behind the scenes and laughing at you. God is your only source of hope because if you don't watch out you will be destroyed or brought down by your own fellows. Watch your back in this day or you will fall.

I could believe this nonsense if it weren't for the fact that not even Christians can completely agree on morality. So, apparently, either:
a) God is giving different people different morality lessons
b) God is a very bad communicator and who know what God's true morality is?
c) No one follows God's morality. Not even Christians.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I can't remember if I asked you this before -- (sorry, if I have) -- but would you tell us why, at one time, you ...

Hebrews 6:4b ... were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

... then turned your back on all that?

There were times when I felt very enlightened, and felt "close" to God. I consciously "let Jesus into my heart". Isn't that all you have to do to be saved? You guys are making it seem like if you don't "feel" the right way, then somehow you weren't "really" a Christian.

Later, as I left the faith, I came to believe that it was all a delusion. But that doesn't change that I had experiences and belief when I was a Christian.

 

[Delphiki]

There were times when I felt very enlightened, and felt "close" to God. I consciously "let Jesus into my heart". Isn't that all you have to do to be saved? You guys are making it seem like if you don't "feel" the right way, then somehow you weren't "really" a Christian.

Later, as I left the faith, I came to believe that it was all a delusion. But that doesn't change that I had experiences and belief when I was a Christian.

Yeah.. What's with that double standard anyway? The same Christian that will tell you "all you have to do is accept Jesus as you personal savior, etc"... Is the same Christian that if you say you have and it doesn't work out, will tell you, "Well you clearly didn't do it enough or the right way.. you weren't really a Christian..."

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Yeah.. What's with that double standard anyway? The same Christian that will tell you "all you have to do is accept Jesus as you personal savior, etc"... Is the same Christian that if you say you have and it doesn't work out, will tell you, "Well you clearly didn't do it enough or the right way.. you weren't really a Christian..."

They are too arrogant to realize that Christianity just doesn't work for some people. They feel like they have the end-all solution that will solve everyone in the world's problems. So if someone leaves the faith, it's the person's fault, and no fault with the faith itself.

 

[Inan3]

Do you literally consider atheism the "dark side"?

Before I answer, what do you think I mean by the "dark side?"

 

[Nathan Poe]

Well, lets see Moses, Joshua, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul... just for a few.

Great! Who were these people? Do you know anything about them besides names?

Now I realize that Moses wasn't there in Genesis but he most certainly was there for Exodus, Levitcus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

Was he now? Or are you just spouting off Church tradition and trying to pass it off as fact?

He also, had face to face visitations from God Himself, who declared to him what happened when HE was there.

So claim the anonymous authors of the Torah.

 

[Skavau]

Before I answer, what do you think I mean by the "dark side?"

I actually have no idea. Influenced by satan, or absent of God or both?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Before I answer, what do you think I mean by the "dark side?"

Have a red lightsaber, electrocute people...

 

[Nathan Poe]

Before I answer, what do you think I mean by the "dark side?"

It's your term; you used it -- assuming it has a meaning, what is it?

 

[Inan3]

I could believe this nonsense if it weren't for the fact that not even Christians can completely agree on morality. So, apparently, either:
a) God is giving different people different morality lessons
b) God is a very bad communicator and who know what God's true morality is?
c) No one follows God's morality. Not even Christians.

Well, that is a pretty good assessment but the truth is that God has one way. It is through Jesus. Very clearly stated that way. Doesn't take much for interpretation. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life no man comes to the Father but by me." Quite simple. Morality is not really that hard either. Basically, we have none that counts for anything, so God set it up that Jesus would take care of that, and He did and in turn, if we will recognize that Jesus took OUR place in punishment and gave us HIS righteousness as a FREE gift, that that would be acceptable to God. So now rather than seeing us sinful God sees us righteous. The ONLY qualifier is that we must BELIEVE this for our own individual lives. It's not the church we go to nor the family we were born into nor the good deeds we can do. It's what Jesus has done for us. It's a FREE gift. There are no perfect people.... just believers. The change and work in our lives is then a walk with God. But even that must be done by faith. We can't be looking at our good works EVER. It's all about the FREE gift and the goodness and love of God towards us. Of course, there is a lot more to it but that is it in a nutshell and if that is all one knows it is enough!

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Well, that is a pretty good assessment but the truth is that God has one way. It is through Jesus. Very clearly stated that way. Doesn't take much for interpretation. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life no man comes to the Father but by me." Quite simple. Morality is not really that hard either. Basically, we have none that counts for anything, so God set it up that Jesus would take care of that, and He did and in turn, if we will recognize that Jesus took OUR place in punishment and gave us HIS righteousness as a FREE gift, that that would be acceptable to God. So now rather than seeing us sinful God sees us righteous. The ONLY qualifier is that we must BELIEVE this for our own individual lives. It's not the church we go to nor the family we were born into nor the good deeds we can do. It's what Jesus has done for us. It's a FREE gift. There are no perfect people.... just believers. The change and work in our lives is then a walk with God. But even that must be done by faith. We can't be looking at our good works EVER. It's all about the FREE gift and the goodness and love of God towards us. Of course, there is a lot more to it but that is it in a nutshell and if that is all one knows it is enough!

Neat sales pitch.

 

[Hespera]

They are too arrogant to realize that Christianity just doesn't work for some people. They feel like they have the end-all solution that will solve everyone in the world's problems. So if someone leaves the faith, it's the person's fault, and no fault with the faith itself.

A few are. The ignorant trailer parkers. The ones with emotional problems. People who resent their status, they will act arrogant sometimes, thin and transparent a cover as it is.

It doesnt 'work" for them, as seen by some of the pink prose lately, it doesnt solve their problems, it may make them worse, infusing them as it does, with assumed self-righteousness.

The stable intelligent and grounded among the Christians dont go frothing about with invective!

All of my inlaws are Christians, and we do fine, mutual respect.

That has been my experience with the 90 plus percent of Christians that i know.

 

[Norbert L]

If you're going to resort to courtroom tactics, then you should be aware that the entire Bible would be rejected in court as hearsay, since not a single author was actually a witness to the things they wrote about.

In whose court? If it is in yours or even the whole of mankind's, I would most definitely agree with you.

I am of the understanding when discussing controversial issues such as evolution vs. creastionism, the phrase 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.' seems to reflect on people no matter which side of the argument they stand on.

You or I are not about to change each others views and even were someone to be so extremely persuasive, that may also not be enough. It is not beyond the human experience to know that 'a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still'.

But the question was asked, "How do you make the leap from there having to be a creator, to the creator being the God of the Bible?"

I believe the answer that was given is a rational and sound minded one for the question being asked and other people can freely dismiss and view it for whatever reasoning they have. The question to concider is whether it holds up in a court not of a person's own choosing?

For he does not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth. To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the LORD approves not. (Lam 3:33-36)

 

[Inan3]

I actually have no idea. Influenced by satan, or absent of God or both?

The reason I asked is because sometimes people get an idea of what you are saying and it isn't what you actually mean. I think, though, that you have encapsulated it in the words "absent of God." I would say atheists are surely there BUT don't get me wrong they are not the only ones. Sometimes people THINK they are with God because of their good deeds but as far as God is concerned that is not enough. It's His way or no way as far as He is concerned. I think that He has wonderfully and generously provided the way for those who will accept it. It's free to all and comes with continued benefits. I don't know any other religion or god who is as kind.