For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[contango]

That just shows you that people are different. You said ealier that you felt like burning down every church there was, and that you fooled around with the ocult. I never felt this anger at all. I'm a very calm person by nature, I don't really have any "deamons" so to speak. I have an awesome life, making good money, having lots of friends. When I grew up, I wasn't raised as an atheist. I wasn't raised as a christian either.... in fact I didn't know if my parents believed in God or not. The first time we even talked about it in my family was like 4-5 months ago.

I remember back in school how important it was to evaluate the sources I used for my assignments. And I think that's a part of why and how I became so skeptical (+ I've met waaay too many people who will exaggerate or even make stuff up, just for attention).

Not burning down churches, just burning a few Bibles.

I agree that a lot of people make stuff up or exaggerate it, and a lot draw conclusions that something unusual has happened when in fact it's hard to see anything particularly unusual in what's going on.

Two examples come to mind. A Christian lady I know recounted a situation where she needed tyres for her car. She wasn't sure if she could afford them, being of limited financial means. Luckily because she bought the two tyres she needed the garage gave her a small discount which meant they fit into her budget. Divine intervention? Or just the normal practice of a small business where one tyre might cost $60 but if all you have is $110 they might give you two for that price?

Second example, someone with terminal aggressive cancer. Sent home from hospital to die and not expected to see the end of the month. Much prayer said, much earnest prayer said. Nearly five months later he's still getting stronger and the cancer appears to have disappeared. Divine intervention? Or just a staggering fluke? I'm not a medical expert but I do know enough to realise that aggressive cancers, once classified as terminal, don't routinely just go away by themselves.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Or just a staggering fluke? I'm not a medical expert but I do know enough to realise that aggressive cancers, once classified as terminal, don't routinely just go away by themselves.

Not routine, but observed nonetheless. Rare events are by definition, ... rare.

 

[sublime911]

Not burning down churches, just burning a few Bibles.

I agree that a lot of people make stuff up or exaggerate it, and a lot draw conclusions that something unusual has happened when in fact it's hard to see anything particularly unusual in what's going on.

Two examples come to mind. A Christian lady I know recounted a situation where she needed tyres for her car. She wasn't sure if she could afford them, being of limited financial means. Luckily because she bought the two tyres she needed the garage gave her a small discount which meant they fit into her budget. Divine intervention? Or just the normal practice of a small business where one tyre might cost $60 but if all you have is $110 they might give you two for that price?

Second example, someone with terminal aggressive cancer. Sent home from hospital to die and not expected to see the end of the month. Much prayer said, much earnest prayer said. Nearly five months later he's still getting stronger and the cancer appears to have disappeared. Divine intervention? Or just a staggering fluke? I'm not a medical expert but I do know enough to realise that aggressive cancers, once classified as terminal, don't routinely just go away by themselves.

Yet babies are allowed starve to death.

 

[MoonLancer]

Second example, someone with terminal aggressive cancer. Sent home from hospital to die and not expected to see the end of the month. Much prayer said, much earnest prayer said. Nearly five months later he's still getting stronger and the cancer appears to have disappeared. Divine intervention? Or just a staggering fluke? I'm not a medical expert but I do know enough to realise that aggressive cancers, once classified as terminal, don't routinely just go away by themselves.

The chances are actually around 10%

If you have a 10% chance the doctor will basically tell you your going to die.

 

[Darkeonz]

Two examples come to mind. A Christian lady I know recounted a situation where she needed tyres for her car. She wasn't sure if she could afford them, being of limited financial means. Luckily because she bought the two tyres she needed the garage gave her a small discount which meant they fit into her budget. Divine intervention? Or just the normal practice of a small business where one tyre might cost $60 but if all you have is $110 they might give you two for that price?

I doubt that's devine intervention lol. You make many purchases throughout your life, and you will get lucky like that now and then. I'm sure you've tried having to purchase something but being short a few as well, and nobody helping you out

Second example, someone with terminal aggressive cancer. Sent home from hospital to die and not expected to see the end of the month. Much prayer said, much earnest prayer said. Nearly five months later he's still getting stronger and the cancer appears to have disappeared. Divine intervention? Or just a staggering fluke? I'm not a medical expert but I do know enough to realise that aggressive cancers, once classified as terminal, don't routinely just go away by themselves.

I lost a friend to cancer just 6 months ago, so a case like this is very interesting to me. We need to investigate these cases, perhaps the cure for cancer is to be found here. If that's devine intervention, what do you call it when someone we consider completely healthy, just drops dead?

 

[CaliforniaSun]

I'm more interested in the five million children under the age of nine who will die this year because they lack access to basic water, nutrtion and medical care.

 

[contango]

The chances are actually around 10%

If you have a 10% chance the doctor will basically tell you your going to die.

Fair comment, although it still doesn't explain why an aggressive cancer apparently just disappeared.

I doubt that's devine intervention lol. You make many purchases throughout your life, and you will get lucky like that now and then. I'm sure you've tried having to purchase something but being short a few as well, and nobody helping you out

With smaller companies I don't regard it as anything unusual if they move a little on the price. With the big companies the price you see is the price in the computer and if the computer says $55.01 then the price is $55.01 and if you've only got $55 then you can't afford it.

I lost a friend to cancer just 6 months ago, so a case like this is very interesting to me. We need to investigate these cases, perhaps the cure for cancer is to be found here. If that's devine intervention, what do you call it when someone we consider completely healthy, just drops dead?

If you mean someone who drops dead of a condition nobody knew they had I guess that's a different thing to someone who is known to be healthy. I know a guy who was physically very fit - played football (soccer) and rugby but who had a heart attack. It turned out to have been caused by being hit in the chest with a rugby ball at just the wrong point in his cardiac cycle. After something of a scare and multiple tests at hospital they sent him home, and some 10 years later he still plays rugby.

I'm more interested in the five million children under the age of nine who will die this year because they lack access to basic water, nutrtion and medical care.

That's something that is within the power of mankind to solve. That we don't solve it is obviously nothing to be proud of.

 

[Greg1234]

I only have problems with some christians. The ones that deny evidence and theories simply because it goes against a literal interpretation of the Bible. I know lots of Christians with faith and all of that, who does not take it literal

The identification of a historical allegory means that the metaphysical influence has increased. The literal is metaphysical Creationism. The interpretation is even more metaphysical Creationism.

 

[Darkeonz]

Fair comment, although it still doesn't explain why an aggressive cancer apparently just disappeared.

You are right it doesn't. But that's why we need to investigate it so we some day can figure out how he got through it. that's where the cure to cancer could be. It would be great if we could figure out how his immune system could detect the cancer cells

With smaller companies I don't regard it as anything unusual if they move a little on the price. With the big companies the price you see is the price in the computer and if the computer says $55.01 then the price is $55.01 and if you've only got $55 then you can't afford it.

I'm sorry, but this is such a bad example. Getting a discount = devine intervention? come on now. People die all over the world and you are talking about a discount at a store. Let's stick to the cancer example please

If you mean someone who drops dead of a condition nobody knew they had I guess that's a different thing to someone who is known to be healthy. I know a guy who was physically very fit - played football (soccer) and rugby but who had a heart attack. It turned out to have been caused by being hit in the chest with a rugby ball at just the wrong point in his cardiac cycle. After something of a scare and multiple tests at hospital they sent him home, and some 10 years later he still plays rugby.



That's something that is within the power of mankind to solve. That we don't solve it is obviously nothing to be proud of.

So if something good happens it's devine intervention, but if something bad and unexpected causes someone to drop dead, it's natural?

 

[Darkeonz]

The identification of a historical allegory means that the metaphysical influence has increased. The literal is metaphysical Creationism. The interpretation is even more metaphysical Creationism.

The metaphysical influence of socieity deludes into inspiring the omnipotent and therefore gives an alleric reaction to a monkey named Stan


Look at me! i'm not making sense either

 

[contango]

You are right it doesn't. But that's why we need to investigate it so we some day can figure out how he got through it. that's where the cure to cancer could be. It would be great if we could figure out how his immune system could detect the cancer cells

So what you want to do is to bottle prayer? Interesting thought

I'm sorry, but this is such a bad example. Getting a discount = devine intervention? come on now. People die all over the world and you are talking about a discount at a store. Let's stick to the cancer example please

That would be why I said "I don't regard it as anything unusual if they move a little on the price". It's the kind of thing some people regard as evidence that God is with them watching over them but I'd agree with the secular assessment that it's hardly a miracle for a small business to be a little flexible on the price.

Had someone turned up needing new tyres with no money at all only to find the business had over-ordered and was willing to give them exactly what they needed for free that might raise eyebrows...

So if something good happens it's devine intervention, but if something bad and unexpected causes someone to drop dead, it's natural?

Not necessarily - if someone appears healthy but actually isn't healthy then it's a natural consequence of the unknown disease. That's the kind of thing that post-mortem examinations tend to throw up, that someone had undiagnosed heart problems or some such.

I know that leads into the obvious question of why some are healed and some are not, and I honestly don't know the answer to that one. God gets to make that decision, not me.

 

[Darkeonz]

So what you want to do is to bottle prayer? Interesting thought

According to statistics, is there a higher survival rate amongst christians then nonchristians?

Had someone turned up needing new tyres with no money at all only to find the business had over-ordered and was willing to give them exactly what they needed for free that might raise eyebrows...

You have really low standards if you would see this as devine intervention. I guess extreme home makeover is devine intervention lol

Not necessarily - if someone appears healthy but actually isn't healthy then it's a natural consequence of the unknown disease. That's the kind of thing that post-mortem examinations tend to throw up, that someone had undiagnosed heart problems or some such.

what is someone drops dead and they can't find any reason in the autopsy??

I know that leads into the obvious question of why some are healed and some are not, and I honestly don't know the answer to that one. God gets to make that decision, not me.

It's an argument of ignorance really. You say it's a miracle because you don't have a better explanation.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm more interested in the five million children under the age of nine who will die this year because they lack access to basic water, nutrtion and medical care.

Nine months?

 

[Hespera]

Alrighty see ya later! Nice to talk to someone who has different opinions.

Feelings are mutual have a great day.

likewise

 

[Doveaman]

I see a lot of people claiming something as complex as the life here on earth must have a creator. Now my question is for those who claim the God of the Bible is the one. How do you make the leap from there having to be a creator, to the creator being the God of the Bible?

The Bible accurately predicted and predicts what I observe around me and what I experience daily on a more personal level.

The question isn't how can I believe in the God of the Bible, but how can I not believe. Accurate predictions make things far more believable. Even scientists rely on accurate predictions. The Bible however is always accurate.

 

[Hespera]

Except when it isnt, like pi=3 and noahs ark.

 

[Doveaman]

Here are the problems I see with this:

1) If there was something, it doesn't have been sentient.

Why not?

 

[sandwiches]

Why not?

It does have to be sentient because a nonsentient first cause could explain the universe just as well.

 

[Darkeonz]

The Bible accurately predicted and predicts what I observe around me and what I experience daily on a more personal level.

The question isn't how can I believe in the God of the Bible, but how can I not believe. Accurate predictions make things far more believable. Even scientists rely on accurate predictions. The Bible however is always accurate.

Which predictions are you talking about?

 

[contango]

According to statistics, is there a higher survival rate amongst christians then nonchristians?

I can't say I know enough cancer patients to be able to tell you.

You have really low standards if you would see this as devine intervention. I guess extreme home makeover is devine intervention lol

I said it would cause me to raise my eyebrows. There's a big difference between a TV show that presumably has sponsors who are paying for it in exchange for the exposure and a small business that just hands over something for no payment when the TV cameras aren't rolling to show how they are donating so much to the community.

what is someone drops dead and they can't find any reason in the autopsy??

Who knows? It doesn't change the fact that the specific case I'm describing had someone who was expected to be dead within six weeks still growing stronger after nearly five months.

I know doctors make mistakes sometimes, but there's a difference between battling on as little more than living dead for a few extra weeks and the cancer apparently just disappearing.

It's an argument of ignorance really. You say it's a miracle because you don't have a better explanation.

So how would you explain it?