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For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

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Lion Hearted Man

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Matthew 5:17-18
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


But either way, the "Jesus did not do it" is a poor definition of morality. Jesus did not marry, did not drive a car, and did not get vaccinated. It utterly fails in instances of things that are definitely ok (getting married) or not specifically mentioned (driving a car or getting vaccinated). Morality should be based on a concept or a principle, so that you can apply it to all future situations. Then you can actually reason through moral situations. This is, of course, completely compatible with a belief in Christianity.


Just wondering Lion heart, where does your sense of morality come from?

My morality comes from a rather simple concept - to minimize the pain and suffering of my fellow beings. This is probably your subconscious morality as well, and you just think you base your morality on the Bible. To me, something is immoral if it poses unnecessary pain and suffering on another. This kind of morality is not static, and it is not based on a list of "dos" and "don'ts" like Biblical morality is, where following God's list of rules = moral. This kind of morality you can adapt to all future situations. Deep down, I'm sure this is really what you believe. It's why you don't hurt other people. It's because you know what pain feels like, and you don't want to do it to another person.
 
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HosannaHM

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Very interesting... I'm going to do some research on this topic but trust me good sir you are making me think. I can see how just saying Jesus there was a poor example but as a Christian He is our example of what living correctly is like.

Just another question (I don't wanna impose though) Can i ask what made you lose your faith?
 
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Hespera

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True! But what if we stemmed it all the way back to the first man?

Would he not take it upon himself to figure out what was moral, or would he just instinctively know? (Not that your gonna call him up and ask him lol)


There of course was no "first man'.

No more than there was a first person to speak french, or a first poodle.

All primates have a social code that they live by, often harshly enforced.

Social code among our ancestors has always been worked out pretty much on an empirical basis, dont you think?

Whats good for one tribe may not have worked for another.

Still, for civilized people, we've all come up with pretty much the same things, regardless of cultural background, religion or part of the world.

it say its because time, experience, thought, and human nature lead to the same conclusions regardless of where you start.
 
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Inan3

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I don't feel like rummaging through your posts, but you denied that I had a "real relationship" with Jesus. I believed, when I was a Christian, that I did have a "real relationship" with Jesus.

I did your RUMMAGING for you. The following are ALL the posts that I have responded to you in. If I missed one please bring it to my attention. Please point out the one where "I" said you were insincere. Also, either you had a relationship or you didn't. On one hand you say you did on the other you say Jesus isn't real. How can you have a relationship with someone who is not real? I'm sorry but it is YOUR words that are confusing me. Here is a definition of relationship.

re·la·tion·ship –noun
1. a connection, association, or involvement.
2. connection between persons by blood or marriage.
3. an emotional or other connection between people: the relationship between teachers and students.
4. a sexual involvement; affair.







Please explain what this has to do with what I was talking about!???!

And if you are asking me when has God ever worked out for me... the answer to that is everyday of my life.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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You can think of it this way, even - morality is like philosophy, mathematics, or science. It's just another field of discourse that you don't need to pin on God. Christians don't need to reference the Bible when it comes to these other fields. The Bible doesn't say anything about calculus, for example, but who cares?

These are good questions to grapple with! I don't want to deconvert you or anything, just maybe show you a different perspective.

I left Christianity for a lot of reasons. I find there to be no evidence for any God or Gods, and I think the world makes good enough sense without a God. I sincerely doubt that if God was real that it would punish disbelief. A lot of specific things in Christianity bugged me, including the concepts of hell, the exclusivity, and demanding people take things on faith. It seems like a sales pitch to me. There could be some truth in Christianity, but at this point, it's been corrupted (in my opinion). It's complicated. And hard to articulate, haha. It's been like a 5 year process.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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It would be silly of me to say now that I "had a relationship with Jesus", because I don't believe in Jesus now. But I can say this - when I was a Christian, "I believed I had a relationship with Jesus". Thus, I've been using the word "sincerity" as an equivalent to "I believed I had a relationship with Jesus". So when you accused me of never having a relationship with Jesus, I took it as you denying me the sincerity of my beliefs.
 
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Hespera

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Would you say you had a "relationship with' your conscience, and discovered it wasnt something supernatural outside yourself?
 
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Inan3

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It's been a while since biology class, huh? Humans are primates, and are related to all other life on this planet. We evolved, just like everything else.

Thank God for that and there NEVER was a science class that PROVED that we were from primates as a matter fact there NEVER was any evidence that PROVED we were from primates - you are believing a "theory" and that's ALL it has EVER been and ever will be.. in other words, you are believing a LIE!! You have NO proof but then you probably don't feel like "rummaging through" all the lies of science ... because you CAN'T bring PROOF!!



I'm just stating my opinions, which I am allowed to do. And I am not scared at all by your words. I was just pointing out how you like to say "repent before it's too late", implying that something terrible will happen to me if I don't reconvert.

Something will.


People like you can't even be reasoned with. You're not even wrong. What you're saying is so far from reality that it cannot be dignified with a "you're wrong" response.

I agree I'm not even wrong!!

Glad to see that you are now not just denying my sincerity, but the sincerity of people you have never interacted with. It must be lonely on the top with just you, AV, and God.

As you will see by my last post I NEVER said you were insincere. I just said you were wrong and the same with these people they are SINCERELY wrong!! As to loneliness at the top... no way. In the presense of God there is FULNESS of joy and pleasures forevermore!!!

The Epic of Gilgamesh was the single most important literary work of the era. If the Abrahamic people were unaware of it, they must have been illiterate dolts.

Oh my goodness!! This is too funny. I suppose it was a broadway show, also. .... Oh no, that would have been done by the Jews (if there had been a broadway show.) Yep, remember them? They are the ones who just about OWN Hollywood, and New York, and most everything else there is. NOPE. I don't know if I've ever heard of any Jewish people, or as you say, "Abrahmic people", who were an illiterate dolts. Those Abrahamic people are amongst the brightest. They didn't need to steal from the likes of Gilgamesh or the grandiose stories about him.

ORAL AND WRITTEN TRANSMISSION OF GILGAMESH
Without a fixed written text, stories can be told for thousands of years, varying from teller to teller, adapted to this folk and that folk, with the names of kings, places, people added and subtracted to meet the needs and interests of a current audience. The story of Gilgamesh was originally part of such an oral tradition. "It is virtually impossible to determine when the material was first written down, let alone when it originated orally or how long it existed in an oral tradition. Rather it can be assumed, from the materials handed down from succeeding ancient peoples and languages, that it was not composed all of a piece and at one time but was added to gradually and varied by many tellers." (Mason 98)
gilgamesh
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Would you say you had a "relationship with' your conscience, and discovered it wasnt something supernatural outside yourself?

Pretty much, yes. I was essentially attributing my own thoughts and reasons for doing things to "Jesus", as if we were partners in my decision-making process. Around when I turned 17 I started realizing this sounded a lot like an imaginary friend.
 
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Ar Cosc

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Do you have any problem with the THEORY of gravity, or germ THEORY? There is plenty of evidence of evolution, and loads of examples of speciation.

You mistrust of science is so disappointing, because you owe it so much. Maybe you don't use antibiotics or get vaccines, but you certainly benefit from them through herd immunity. The computer you're writing on, the electricity that makes your life easier, the printing presses that made your bible, all of these were developed by scientists. Sure, there are cynical scientists who are only out to make money, but I doubt you'd discredit all of christianity because of a few snake-oil faith healers, so why hold science to a standard that is so much higher?
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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I'm not going to educate you on evolution, because it's not worth it. The way you use the word "proof" and "theory" shows that you really don't understand science. There is no possible way I can distill down the >5 years of biology coursework and research I've done, so I'll just let you wallow around in your ignorance because you don't seem very eager to learn anything.

Something will.

Then your god is not worth worship. No moral being would punish someone infinitely for finite crimes. Would you torture a rebellious child?

I agree I'm not even wrong!!

You misunderstand. "You are not even wrong" is worse than being wrong. It's like being on a game show, and you're being asked to name two states that border Ohio, and you respond with "53 and Coca-Cola with Lime". That's how vastly incorrect you are.


So why did God not greet me with his presence when I opened my heart to him? Because apparently the fullness of joy and pleasures forevermore would be too much awesome to turn down...


I used the term "Abrahamic" to refer to the contemporaries of Abraham and his family. They were not called Israelites until Jacob, the grandson of Abraham, who was the father of the tribes of Israel. I used that term intentionally, because it is estimated that Abraham lived in the region that Gilgamesh did, but later. Abraham being unaware of the Gilgamesh story would be like living in the United States in the 1950s and not knowing who Abraham Lincoln was.
 
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CaliforniaSun

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What's your explanation of human chromosome #2?
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Earlier she downplayed the significant of vaccines when I mentioned it and she was like "all I got was a polio shot" and then went on a rant about antibiotics being dangerous. Oh she also said she never gets sick. And hinted at a belief in faith-healing.

This one is not worth correcting. The ignorance is too much.
 
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Hespera

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Pretty much, yes. I was essentially attributing my own thoughts and reasons for doing things to "Jesus", as if we were partners in my decision-making process. Around when I turned 17 I started realizing this sounded a lot like an imaginary friend.

In china, I talked to a mormon missionary who explained that he had his doubts ( I asked how he could believe such an unbelievable story as the golden books) as a teenager, but, then he prayed.

Earnestly, I guess, for about a week, "Is it true? Is the BoM true?"

And then the answer just came to him, while he was about something else,
and came with unmistakable clarity and force.. "Yes".

So that was it!

I felt I may have understood a lot more from that than he did tho.

It was so like when I was stewing which grad school to go to. "lo here, lo there". Id think I had a good reason to say this one, then, well no, but that one. Day and night, drove myself nuts! Then it would come to me-
unmistakable force and clarity, as it came from outside myself. "Go (thou) to school A!"

But being me, I'd keep stewing and after a few days here it comes...

"Go to school... B!"

I expect if our mormon friend had kept it up, he'd presently have gotten the opposite answer to what he got the first time.
 
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Hespera

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Hostile snarky ignorance is too much for me.
 
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AV1611VET

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So that was it!
Not for me.

God asks:

Isaiah 46:5 ¶ To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

In addition, we know that prophecies ceased when the Word of God was completed; thus any religion started by a prophet (e.g. Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, Jehovah's Witness, Islam) would be automatically considered a false religion.
 
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