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For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

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Lion Hearted Man

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Like Greg said we are under the new covenant through Christ. If I wanted to refute what your saying I could simply say Jesus did not do it, so I shouldn't. He said to flee sexual immorality on several verses.

Old testament laws impossible of being kept- rectified by the new covenant of Christ

Matthew 5:17-18
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


But either way, the "Jesus did not do it" is a poor definition of morality. Jesus did not marry, did not drive a car, and did not get vaccinated. It utterly fails in instances of things that are definitely ok (getting married) or not specifically mentioned (driving a car or getting vaccinated). Morality should be based on a concept or a principle, so that you can apply it to all future situations. Then you can actually reason through moral situations. This is, of course, completely compatible with a belief in Christianity.


Just wondering Lion heart, where does your sense of morality come from?

My morality comes from a rather simple concept - to minimize the pain and suffering of my fellow beings. This is probably your subconscious morality as well, and you just think you base your morality on the Bible. To me, something is immoral if it poses unnecessary pain and suffering on another. This kind of morality is not static, and it is not based on a list of "dos" and "don'ts" like Biblical morality is, where following God's list of rules = moral. This kind of morality you can adapt to all future situations. Deep down, I'm sure this is really what you believe. It's why you don't hurt other people. It's because you know what pain feels like, and you don't want to do it to another person.
 
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HosannaHM

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Matthew 5:17-18

My morality comes from a rather simple concept - to minimize the pain and suffering of my fellow beings. This is probably your subconscious morality as well, and you just think you base your morality on the Bible. To me, something is immoral if it poses unnecessary pain and suffering on another. This kind of morality is not static, and it is not based on a list of "dos" and "don'ts" like Biblical morality is, where following God's list of rules = moral. This kind of morality you can adapt to all future situations. Deep down, I'm sure this is really what you believe. It's why you don't hurt other people. It's because you know what pain feels like, and you don't want to do it to another person.

Very interesting... I'm going to do some research on this topic but trust me good sir you are making me think. I can see how just saying Jesus there was a poor example but as a Christian He is our example of what living correctly is like.

Just another question (I don't wanna impose though) Can i ask what made you lose your faith?
 
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Hespera

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True! But what if we stemmed it all the way back to the first man?

Would he not take it upon himself to figure out what was moral, or would he just instinctively know? (Not that your gonna call him up and ask him lol)


There of course was no "first man'.

No more than there was a first person to speak french, or a first poodle.

All primates have a social code that they live by, often harshly enforced.

Social code among our ancestors has always been worked out pretty much on an empirical basis, dont you think?

Whats good for one tribe may not have worked for another.

Still, for civilized people, we've all come up with pretty much the same things, regardless of cultural background, religion or part of the world.

it say its because time, experience, thought, and human nature lead to the same conclusions regardless of where you start.
 
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Inan3

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I don't feel like rummaging through your posts, but you denied that I had a "real relationship" with Jesus. I believed, when I was a Christian, that I did have a "real relationship" with Jesus.

I did your RUMMAGING for you. The following are ALL the posts that I have responded to you in. If I missed one please bring it to my attention. Please point out the one where "I" said you were insincere. Also, either you had a relationship or you didn't. On one hand you say you did on the other you say Jesus isn't real. How can you have a relationship with someone who is not real? I'm sorry but it is YOUR words that are confusing me. Here is a definition of relationship.

re·la·tion·ship –noun
1. a connection, association, or involvement.
2. connection between persons by blood or marriage.
3. an emotional or other connection between people: the relationship between teachers and students.
4. a sexual involvement; affair.



See ... there are YOUR words again. YOU said you were RAISED a Christian... you didn't say you WERE a Christian. That's where your understanding is ALL wrong. Just living in a Christian home, going to a Christian church, trying to do all Christian things does not make you a Christian. Many people make THAT mistake. Being a Christian means being BORN AGAIN. BORN in the SPIRIT. It's an EXPERIENCE in the heart not some "works" you do. Being a Christian is KNOWING Christ not knowing ABOUT Christ.

I'll give you this, at least you admitted, you were twisting the words to make a joke/jab.

I realize we do see things very differently but never say never LH. God wants you to know Him in a way you have not known Him before.



So are you saying you had a "real" relationship with Jesus? That you knew Him?



Well, I cannot answer you because I have no idea what you are talking about. You give no specific details. But I know the scriptures say the "world" by wisdom knew not God. It says the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men. Maybe that is why it is so easy for me to hear from God because I am not trying to go to Him in my wisdom or education. I just simply go to Him and believe Him. I'm not trying to figure it all but somehow I do. He gives me wisdom beyond myself. That may not set with you but I know it happens. I know He talks with me in my spirit. I have learned to hear Him. He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying.



I have to go right now but I will try to get back to this at another time.



I'll have to get back to this later, also. Sorry about that.

I'm sorry for your struggles Lion Heart but many times God has answered my prayers. Now I want to make sure you do not take that as a slam against you saying you haven't had your prayers answered. It sometimes takes removing hindrances to prayer to have your prayers answered. It doesn't mean you are bad or God doesn't love you it only means that sometimes we have things that block the prayers. I just want to encourage you that God DOES answer prayers and if you don't give up He will answer yours if you come to Him in the right manner. Don't read anymore into to that just know there is a way to approach God. It just takes learning how.



Not so Lion Heart but I won't try to convince you here.


I'm not talking about modern day predictions I'm talking about Bible prophecies. These predictions that try to predict the coming of the Lord are wrong. In Mat. 24 Jesus said no man knows that hour. Although there are many signs which point to the time when it will happen no one can know the day.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

People are foolish and in error when they give dates as to when the Lord will return. It is okay to look at the signs of the times and know the time is close but we cannot predict a date. We can speculate but could be off by hundreds of years. One great sign is that Israel is now a nation. They have not been a nation for for almost 2000 years and Jesus' reference to the blossoming of the fig tree is believed to be a reference of them coming back as a nation. In reference to that Jesus said this is just the "beginning" of things coming. What does "beginning" mean? Five years? Ten years? Fifty years? We don't know for sure. If we look at other scriptures in regards to this we can see that He says,

"Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

What in unknown is how long is a generation? Is he referring to Israel here? We can only keep our eyes open and be ready and be aware. It seems to be close at hand now and I only tell you these things so you can be aware of what is coming. How you respond, of course, is up to you.



That has happened and many other healings. And it is still happening in this day and age. Miracles still happen. That's what I'm trying to tell you.



That is how God has chosen to tell people the good news by using the foolishness of preaching. He knows some people are on a high horse and think they deserve it right from the top themselves but if you want to hear from the Top you have to go His way. So I'm going to let you tell Him. He can hear you. I suggest you use a little humility, though.



Maybe sometime you could tell me how or what you were believing. I know lots of times people miss it because what they thought was the way to God was not. There is way that seems right to man but the end is the way of death.

Thank you for your explanation. I really find this quite funny because in my mind that is what you do with science. I would call it the "Science of the Gaps". For you and others it is your way of wiping God or the fact that there is a spiritual realm and we are spiritual beings out of your thinking. I also believe there is a "spiritual" force behind this to keep you from the One who cares and loves you most in this life. God is not a "fill in" for our insecurities or lack of answers. He is a being Who loves and reasons and communes with us. IF I never received anything in my relationship FROM God and it was only onesided with me just making things up as I go don't you think that I would eventually give it up without any response or communication from God's side. If you think that, it is no wonder that you atheists think we Christians are mindless and deceitful. I would think the same way. BUT it is not onesided. God is not made up in my mind. He is real. I don't stay because I am afraid. I stay because I am loved. I don't use God to fill in the gaps but God has filled in the gaps with answers to my questions which are unanswerable by science. I respect science but only to a point.





You are wrong when you say, "There has never been a supernatural explanation that predicted anything accurately." God's word, the Bible is FULL of prophesies and predictions that have come true and are still coming true at a rapid rate especially in this day and age. And it would behoove EVERYONE to find out what is going on because it is soon all going to come down and to an end. This is just the beginning of the things which are going to happen in this last day. It's important to be on the right side of the battle. I'm talking about between the natural and the spiritual realms. I realize when you said predicted you probably were talking scientifically but words are words and what you said wasn't accurate.

I'm going to say one more thing that may make you and others only laugh but I want you to know that God has sent me here to tell you that He is real and knows who you are and wants to give you abundant eternal life through His Son Jesus Christ. You have probably heard this before but you will never be able to say that God didn't love you enough to send someone to tell you because He has sent me. All you have to do is talk to Him and ask Him to come into your life and show you what He has planned for you. He'll do the rest so keep your eyes open. The God I'm talking about is not the gods that people prayed for to change the weather or give a basket of fruit to or offered their children to, nor is He the moon god Allah of today, nor Vashti or Buddha etc. The gods of the past or the present are all false. He is the ONLY God. The God of all creation and there is NO other gods beside Him or before Him. He is the living God the great I AM!

Please explain what this has to do with what I was talking about!???!

And if you are asking me when has God ever worked out for me... the answer to that is everyday of my life.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Very interesting... I'm going to do some research on this topic but trust me good sir you are making me think. I can see how just saying Jesus there was a poor example but as a Christian He is our example of what living correctly is like.

Just another question (I don't wanna impose though) Can i ask what made you lose your faith?

You can think of it this way, even - morality is like philosophy, mathematics, or science. It's just another field of discourse that you don't need to pin on God. Christians don't need to reference the Bible when it comes to these other fields. The Bible doesn't say anything about calculus, for example, but who cares?

These are good questions to grapple with! I don't want to deconvert you or anything, just maybe show you a different perspective.

I left Christianity for a lot of reasons. I find there to be no evidence for any God or Gods, and I think the world makes good enough sense without a God. I sincerely doubt that if God was real that it would punish disbelief. A lot of specific things in Christianity bugged me, including the concepts of hell, the exclusivity, and demanding people take things on faith. It seems like a sales pitch to me. There could be some truth in Christianity, but at this point, it's been corrupted (in my opinion). It's complicated. And hard to articulate, haha. It's been like a 5 year process.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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I did your RUMMAGING for you. The following are ALL the posts that I have responded to you in. If I missed one please bring it to my attention. Please point out the one where "I" said you were insincere. Also, either you had a relationship or you didn't. On one hand you say you did on the other you say Jesus isn't real. How can you have a relationship with someone who is not real? I'm sorry but it is YOUR words that are confusing me. Here is a definition of relationship.

re·la·tion·ship –noun
1. a connection, association, or involvement.
2. connection between persons by blood or marriage.
3. an emotional or other connection between people: the relationship between teachers and students.
4. a sexual involvement; affair.

It would be silly of me to say now that I "had a relationship with Jesus", because I don't believe in Jesus now. But I can say this - when I was a Christian, "I believed I had a relationship with Jesus". Thus, I've been using the word "sincerity" as an equivalent to "I believed I had a relationship with Jesus". So when you accused me of never having a relationship with Jesus, I took it as you denying me the sincerity of my beliefs.
 
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Hespera

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It would be silly of me to say now that I "had a relationship with Jesus", because I don't believe in Jesus now. But I can say this - when I was a Christian, "I believed I had a relationship with Jesus". Thus, I've been using the word "sincerity" as an equivalent to "I believed I had a relationship with Jesus". So when you accused me of never having a relationship with Jesus, I took it as you denying me the sincerity of my beliefs.


Would you say you had a "relationship with' your conscience, and discovered it wasnt something supernatural outside yourself?
 
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Inan3

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It's been a while since biology class, huh? Humans are primates, and are related to all other life on this planet. We evolved, just like everything else.

Thank God for that and there NEVER was a science class that PROVED that we were from primates as a matter fact there NEVER was any evidence that PROVED we were from primates - you are believing a "theory" and that's ALL it has EVER been and ever will be.. in other words, you are believing a LIE!! You have NO proof but then you probably don't feel like "rummaging through" all the lies of science ... because you CAN'T bring PROOF!!



I'm just stating my opinions, which I am allowed to do. And I am not scared at all by your words. I was just pointing out how you like to say "repent before it's too late", implying that something terrible will happen to me if I don't reconvert.

Something will.


People like you can't even be reasoned with. You're not even wrong. What you're saying is so far from reality that it cannot be dignified with a "you're wrong" response.

I agree I'm not even wrong!!

Glad to see that you are now not just denying my sincerity, but the sincerity of people you have never interacted with. It must be lonely on the top with just you, AV, and God.

As you will see by my last post I NEVER said you were insincere. I just said you were wrong and the same with these people they are SINCERELY wrong!! As to loneliness at the top... no way. In the presense of God there is FULNESS of joy and pleasures forevermore!!!

The Epic of Gilgamesh was the single most important literary work of the era. If the Abrahamic people were unaware of it, they must have been illiterate dolts.

Oh my goodness!! This is too funny. I suppose it was a broadway show, also. .... Oh no, that would have been done by the Jews (if there had been a broadway show.) Yep, remember them? They are the ones who just about OWN Hollywood, and New York, and most everything else there is. NOPE. I don't know if I've ever heard of any Jewish people, or as you say, "Abrahmic people", who were an illiterate dolts. Those Abrahamic people are amongst the brightest. They didn't need to steal from the likes of Gilgamesh or the grandiose stories about him.

ORAL AND WRITTEN TRANSMISSION OF GILGAMESH
Without a fixed written text, stories can be told for thousands of years, varying from teller to teller, adapted to this folk and that folk, with the names of kings, places, people added and subtracted to meet the needs and interests of a current audience. The story of Gilgamesh was originally part of such an oral tradition. "It is virtually impossible to determine when the material was first written down, let alone when it originated orally or how long it existed in an oral tradition. Rather it can be assumed, from the materials handed down from succeeding ancient peoples and languages, that it was not composed all of a piece and at one time but was added to gradually and varied by many tellers." (Mason 98)
gilgamesh
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Would you say you had a "relationship with' your conscience, and discovered it wasnt something supernatural outside yourself?

Pretty much, yes. I was essentially attributing my own thoughts and reasons for doing things to "Jesus", as if we were partners in my decision-making process. Around when I turned 17 I started realizing this sounded a lot like an imaginary friend.
 
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Ar Cosc

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Thank God for that and there NEVER was a science class that PROVED that we were from primates as a matter fact there NEVER was any evidence that PROVED we were from primates - you are believing a "theory" and that's ALL it has EVER been and ever will be.. in other words, you are believing a LIE!! You have NO proof but then you probably don't feel like "rummaging through" all the lies of science ... because you CAN'T bring PROOF!!


Do you have any problem with the THEORY of gravity, or germ THEORY? There is plenty of evidence of evolution, and loads of examples of speciation.

You mistrust of science is so disappointing, because you owe it so much. Maybe you don't use antibiotics or get vaccines, but you certainly benefit from them through herd immunity. The computer you're writing on, the electricity that makes your life easier, the printing presses that made your bible, all of these were developed by scientists. Sure, there are cynical scientists who are only out to make money, but I doubt you'd discredit all of christianity because of a few snake-oil faith healers, so why hold science to a standard that is so much higher?
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Thank God for that and there NEVER was a science class that PROVED that we were from primates as a matter fact there NEVER was any evidence that PROVED we were from primates - you are believing a "theory" and that's ALL it has EVER been and ever will be.. in other words, you are believing a LIE!! You have NO proof but then you probably don't feel like "rummaging through" all the lies of science ... because you CAN'T bring PROOF!!

I'm not going to educate you on evolution, because it's not worth it. The way you use the word "proof" and "theory" shows that you really don't understand science. There is no possible way I can distill down the >5 years of biology coursework and research I've done, so I'll just let you wallow around in your ignorance because you don't seem very eager to learn anything.

Something will.

Then your god is not worth worship. No moral being would punish someone infinitely for finite crimes. Would you torture a rebellious child?

I agree I'm not even wrong!!

You misunderstand. "You are not even wrong" is worse than being wrong. It's like being on a game show, and you're being asked to name two states that border Ohio, and you respond with "53 and Coca-Cola with Lime". That's how vastly incorrect you are.

As you will see by my last post I NEVER said you were insincere. I just said you were wrong and the same with these people they are SINCERELY wrong!! As to loneliness at the top... no way. In the presense of God there is FULNESS of joy and pleasures forevermore!!!

So why did God not greet me with his presence when I opened my heart to him? Because apparently the fullness of joy and pleasures forevermore would be too much awesome to turn down...

Oh my goodness!! This is too funny. I suppose it was a broadway show, also. .... Oh no, that would have been done by the Jews (if there had been a broadway show.) Yep, remember them? They are the ones who just about OWN Hollywood, and New York, and most everything else there is. NOPE. I don't know if I've ever heard of any Jewish people, or as you say, "Abrahmic people", who were an illiterate dolts. Those Abrahamic people are amongst the brightest. They didn't need to steal from the likes of Gilgamesh or the grandiose stories about him.

ORAL AND WRITTEN TRANSMISSION OF GILGAMESH
Without a fixed written text, stories can be told for thousands of years, varying from teller to teller, adapted to this folk and that folk, with the names of kings, places, people added and subtracted to meet the needs and interests of a current audience. The story of Gilgamesh was originally part of such an oral tradition. "It is virtually impossible to determine when the material was first written down, let alone when it originated orally or how long it existed in an oral tradition. Rather it can be assumed, from the materials handed down from succeeding ancient peoples and languages, that it was not composed all of a piece and at one time but was added to gradually and varied by many tellers." (Mason 98)
gilgamesh

I used the term "Abrahamic" to refer to the contemporaries of Abraham and his family. They were not called Israelites until Jacob, the grandson of Abraham, who was the father of the tribes of Israel. I used that term intentionally, because it is estimated that Abraham lived in the region that Gilgamesh did, but later. Abraham being unaware of the Gilgamesh story would be like living in the United States in the 1950s and not knowing who Abraham Lincoln was.
 
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CaliforniaSun

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Thank God for that and there NEVER was a science class that PROVED that we were from primates as a matter fact there NEVER was any evidence that PROVED we were from primates - you are believing a "theory" and that's ALL it has EVER been and ever will be.. in other words, you are believing a LIE!! You have NO proof but then you probably don't feel like "rummaging through" all the lies of science ... because you CAN'T bring PROOF!!

What's your explanation of human chromosome #2?
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Do you have any problem with the THEORY of gravity, or germ THEORY? There is plenty of evidence of evolution, and loads of examples of speciation.

You mistrust of science is so disappointing, because you owe it so much. Maybe you don't use antibiotics or get vaccines, but you certainly benefit from them through herd immunity. The computer you're writing on, the electricity that makes your life easier, the printing presses that made your bible, all of these were developed by scientists. Sure, there are cynical scientists who are only out to make money, but I doubt you'd discredit all of christianity because of a few snake-oil faith healers, so why hold science to a standard that is so much higher?

Earlier she downplayed the significant of vaccines when I mentioned it and she was like "all I got was a polio shot" and then went on a rant about antibiotics being dangerous. Oh she also said she never gets sick. And hinted at a belief in faith-healing.

This one is not worth correcting. The ignorance is too much.
 
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Hespera

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Pretty much, yes. I was essentially attributing my own thoughts and reasons for doing things to "Jesus", as if we were partners in my decision-making process. Around when I turned 17 I started realizing this sounded a lot like an imaginary friend.

In china, I talked to a mormon missionary who explained that he had his doubts ( I asked how he could believe such an unbelievable story as the golden books) as a teenager, but, then he prayed.

Earnestly, I guess, for about a week, "Is it true? Is the BoM true?"

And then the answer just came to him, while he was about something else,
and came with unmistakable clarity and force.. "Yes".

So that was it!

I felt I may have understood a lot more from that than he did tho.

It was so like when I was stewing which grad school to go to. "lo here, lo there". Id think I had a good reason to say this one, then, well no, but that one. Day and night, drove myself nuts! Then it would come to me-
unmistakable force and clarity, as it came from outside myself. "Go (thou) to school A!"

But being me, I'd keep stewing and after a few days here it comes...

"Go to school... B!"

I expect if our mormon friend had kept it up, he'd presently have gotten the opposite answer to what he got the first time.
 
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Hespera

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Earlier she downplayed the significant of vaccines when I mentioned it and she was like "all I got was a polio shot" and then went on a rant about antibiotics being dangerous. Oh she also said she never gets sick. And hinted at a belief in faith-healing.

This one is not worth correcting. The ignorance is too much.


Hostile snarky ignorance is too much for me.
 
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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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So that was it!
Not for me.

God asks:

Isaiah 46:5 ¶ To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

In addition, we know that prophecies ceased when the Word of God was completed; thus any religion started by a prophet (e.g. Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, Jehovah's Witness, Islam) would be automatically considered a false religion.
 
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