LDS For Not Following Joseph Smith?

mmksparbud

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You are aware that a Mormon press was siezed and torched a few years earlier.
Why haven't you mentioned this? Who took care of JS when his printing press was destroyed?


And being the good Christian that he was he decided that to do the very same thing. It wasn't a secular press that he destroyed, but a Mormon press. They were Mormons who did not believe the same as he and were not afraid to say so.
 
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mmksparbud

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All prophets good. They are not perfect. After leading Israel for forty years and not being able to enter the promise land I bet he wishes he would have just took a second one before he opened his mouth


Yup---and Moses done paid for his One mistake too---however, Moses was a true prophet of God and made no false predictions and led no one astray with false stories claiming they were from God. Had he done so---he would have been stoned.
 
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Peter1000

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And being the good Christian that he was he decided that to do the very same thing. It wasn't a secular press that he destroyed, but a Mormon press. They were Mormons who did not believe the same as he and were not afraid to say so.
They were Mormons that were trying to take over Nauvoo, and so the first thing they had to do was get rid of JS. So they set up a press and started to tell all kinds of good stories and lies about JS. Lies that you are still upset about thinking that they were true stories of JS's monstrous wifery.

So you did not answer about JS's press that was destroyed. When did those men go to jail and get murdered? Tell me what you think of that too.

Did JS make a mistake destroying the press? Probably so. So did Moses make a mistake killing a man? Probably so. Did Elijah make a mistake by sicking a female bear on children and killing a bunch? Probably so. I can go on, but I hope you see my point.
 
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mmksparbud

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They were Mormons that were trying to take over Nauvoo, and so the first thing they had to do was get rid of JS. So they set up a press and started to tell all kinds of good stories and lies about JS. Lies that you are still upset about thinking that they were true stories of JS's monstrous wifery.

So you did not answer about JS's press that was destroyed. When did those men go to jail and get murdered? Tell me what you think of that too.

Did JS make a mistake destroying the press? Probably so. So did Moses make a mistake killing a man? Probably so. Did Elijah make a mistake by sicking a female bear on children and killing a bunch? Probably so. I can go on, but I hope you see my point.

They were not trying to take over--they were putting out the truth of what JS was doing. Not something he or you are willing to admit to. And of course it was wrong to destroy private property, no matter who it belonged to. That is no excuse for anything, nor is the murder that Moses or David committed---how is these men murdering someone a license for anyone today to do the same or do anything that is wrong?? Elisha sent out a bear on those children because they disrespected a prophet of God. Parents stoned their children back then for such a thing. Right or wrong--what does anyone else's sins in ancient Israel make anyone's sins today OK? Does Moses murdering makes murder OK now?? Where does it say that in the bible? And what Moses did was long before he was called by God as a prophet. He made one mistake that kept him out of the promised land and that is no excuse for JS doing something wrong in his day. You want to parade the sins of others but you want to whitewash and excuse the sins of JS.
 
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Peter1000

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They were not trying to take over--they were putting out the truth of what JS was doing. Not something he or you are willing to admit to. And of course it was wrong to destroy private property, no matter who it belonged to. That is no excuse for anything, nor is the murder that Moses or David committed---how is these men murdering someone a license for anyone today to do the same or do anything that is wrong?? Elisha sent out a bear on those children because they disrespected a prophet of God. Parents stoned their children back then for such a thing. Right or wrong--what does anyone else's sins in ancient Israel make anyone's sins today OK? Does Moses murdering makes murder OK now?? Where does it say that in the bible? And what Moses did was long before he was called by God as a prophet. He made one mistake that kept him out of the promised land and that is no excuse for JS doing something wrong in his day. You want to parade the sins of others but you want to whitewash and excuse the sins of JS.
I am not whitewashing anything, you just expect a prophet of God to be a perfect man, and they are not perfect men. So if you know they are not perfect then don't raise the standard so high for JS, he was just a man also.
BTW, what if JS caused a bear to rip through 25 kids, killing 15 or so, do you think you would have a problem with that? Well, the kids disrespected him, I would say, and you would say _________________, I don't even want to write it, it would be so vulgar and vitriolic. So is it a double standard???

Prophets are not perfect men, and the press was printing not just lies, but flaming lies. It was not just an innocent group of people putting out the truth.
They were publishing trash, and the city council, who had all the authority to stop it, did. The mistake was to destroy it. But I believe that if they had just seized the assets, JS would have been just as maligned, so they could not win.
 
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mmksparbud

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I am not whitewashing anything, you just expect a prophet of God to be a perfect man, and they are not perfect men. So if you know they are not perfect then don't raise the standard so high for JS, he was just a man also.
BTW, what if JS caused a bear to rip through 25 kids, killing 15 or so, do you think you would have a problem with that? Well, the kids disrespected him, I would say, and you would say _________________, I don't even want to write it, it would be so vulgar and vitriolic. So is it a double standard???

Prophets are not perfect men, and the press was printing not just lies, but flaming lies. It was not just an innocent group of people putting out the truth.
They were publishing trash, and the city council, who had all the authority to stop it, did. The mistake was to destroy it. But I believe that if they had just seized the assets, JS would have been just as maligned, so they could not win.

Yes, I'd have a problem with anyone unleashing a bear on a bunch of rowdy kids today---we don't live in ancient Israel anymore and have different standards and laws. Back then parents stoned their children for disobedience and disrespect---you can't even spank a kid today without being hauled off to court for child abuse.
I don't expect anyone to be perfect, yesterday today or tomorrow. Never the less, a prophet of God, no matter at what time, is held to a higher standard than the rest of us, by us and by God. It is just plain fact that you guys want to venerate JS and make him out to be in the right under all circumstances when that simply was far from the truth. No matter what--a prophets predictions must come true or what they said was not of God. The bible is clear on that and you guys want to ignore it and disregard it and still claim him as a prophet---the rest of us can't.
And it certainly was a group of innocent people telling the truth-you just do not want to believe it nor believe the truth. They were telling it like it really was. JS had lusted after other women and came up with this so called pronouncement from God reinstituting something that had been done away with long ago and had no reason to reinstate. JS was after power also and wanted to be President of this country. That is true and clear. And he was willing to go to any lengths to obtain his wishes.
 
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Peter1000

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Yes, I'd have a problem with anyone unleashing a bear on a bunch of rowdy kids today---we don't live in ancient Israel anymore and have different standards and laws. Back then parents stoned their children for disobedience and disrespect---you can't even spank a kid today without being hauled off to court for child abuse.
I don't expect anyone to be perfect, yesterday today or tomorrow. Never the less, a prophet of God, no matter at what time, is held to a higher standard than the rest of us, by us and by God. It is just plain fact that you guys want to venerate JS and make him out to be in the right under all circumstances when that simply was far from the truth. No matter what--a prophets predictions must come true or what they said was not of God. The bible is clear on that and you guys want to ignore it and disregard it and still claim him as a prophet---the rest of us can't.
And it certainly was a group of innocent people telling the truth-you just do not want to believe it nor believe the truth. They were telling it like it really was. JS had lusted after other women and came up with this so called pronouncement from God reinstituting something that had been done away with long ago and had no reason to reinstate. JS was after power also and wanted to be President of this country. That is true and clear. And he was willing to go to any lengths to obtain his wishes.

The Law brothers were very active in the church early on. They had some money and when they moved to Nauvoo, they started buying up land and selling that land to Mormons moving in. Eventually, JS was upset with the Law brothers because they were gouging the new comers who were looking for land. JS in the name of the Church had land that he was selling too at a decent price to help people out. That became one issue, but they ironed out the problem and William Law was made a counselor to JS in the Presidency of the Church. But this land issue raised its head later. Law eventually began to not believe that JS was a prophet because of some of the doctrines that he was preaching. The main doctrine was plural marriage.

Finally the Law brothers broke completely and were excommunicated from the church. Instead of just going away, the Laws figured they had too much money wrapped up in Nauvoo that they were not going to leave. So they rented a building and bought some printing equipment and started to print articles that were unfavorable to JS and eventually that were dirty lies about JS and others in the community. It truly became a nuisance to the community because the paper started to go out to other communities and was bringing a lot of ugly pressure on JS and the church for things they were not doing.

Partly because of the Laws and their printing press, mobs started to form and destroy property and hurt and kill Mormons in the outlaying properties of Nauvoo and it became a dangerous place, eventually leading to the death of JS and his brother and the wounding of several others at the Carthage jail, in the custody of the Governor of the state of Illinois.

So were they cheerful innocent people just telling the truth about the monster JS? No. They were party to getting rid of JS. I believe they were astounded that JS was murdered so brutally, and that action caused them to move out of Nauvoo and start another life out of Mormonism.
 
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mmksparbud

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The Law brothers were very active in the church early on. They had some money and when they moved to Nauvoo, they started buying up land and selling that land to Mormons moving in. Eventually, JS was upset with the Law brothers because they were gouging the new comers who were looking for land. JS in the name of the Church had land that he was selling too at a decent price to help people out. That became one issue, but they ironed out the problem and William Law was made a counselor to JS in the Presidency of the Church. But this land issue raised its head later. Law eventually began to not believe that JS was a prophet because of some of the doctrines that he was preaching. The main doctrine was plural marriage.

Finally the Law brothers broke completely and were excommunicated from the church. Instead of just going away, the Laws figured they had too much money wrapped up in Nauvoo that they were not going to leave. So they rented a building and bought some printing equipment and started to print articles that were unfavorable to JS and eventually that were dirty lies about JS and others in the community. It truly became a nuisance to the community because the paper started to go out to other communities and was bringing a lot of ugly pressure on JS and the church for things they were not doing.

Partly because of the Laws and their printing press, mobs started to form and destroy property and hurt and kill Mormons in the outlaying properties of Nauvoo and it became a dangerous place, eventually leading to the death of JS and his brother and the wounding of several others at the Carthage jail, in the custody of the Governor of the state of Illinois.

So were they cheerful innocent people just telling the truth about the monster JS? No. They were party to getting rid of JS. I believe they were astounded that JS was murdered so brutally, and that action caused them to move out of Nauvoo and start another life out of Mormonism.


That, of course, is the Mormon version. I believe theirs is a little bit different.


The Nauvoo Expositor was a newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois, that published only one issue, on June 7, 1844. Its publication set off a chain of events that led to the death of Joseph Smith.

The Expositor was founded by several seceders from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and some non-Mormons in the Nauvoo area. The single edition of the newspaper was critical of Smith and other church leaders. Specifically, Smith was criticized for teaching doctrines such as plural marriage and exaltation.[1]

In response to the newspaper's publication, Smith and the Nauvoo City Council declared the paper a public nuisance, and ordered the press destroyed.[2] The town marshal carried out the order during the evening of June 10.[3]

The destruction of the press led to charges of riot against Smith and other members of the Council. After Smith surrendered on the charges, he was also charged with treason against Illinois. Smith was killed by a mob while awaiting a trial in Carthage Jail.
Nauvoo Expositor - Wikipedia

The Expositor was intended from the beginning as a means of expressing dissent—perhaps the ultimate form of adherence to an ideal, for the dissenters feel it so important that they are willing to endure all forms of censure for it—and through it the publishers hoped to arouse the community against the secret practice of polygamy, raise concerns about other doctrines, and curb Joseph Smith’s theocratic control of the community.


The above the fold front page of the only issue of Expositor ever published.

When its only issue appeared on June 7, 1844, the Expositor excited the city’s leadership. It condemned the taking of plural wives and denounced the practice as a villainy by depicting the psychological pressure that was brought to bear on the selected women. It also deplored Joseph Smith’s attempts to gain and wield political power and called for greater separation of church and state at Nauvoo. The publishers listed a whole series of resolutions designed to bring religious, moral, and political reform to the community. Among other things, they opposed Smith’s efforts to hold himself above the law.

The Expositor not only opposed Smith’s control of Nauvoo, it held his behavior up to precisely the kind of critical examination that he had always managed to avoid within the church. And the publishers were very well informed. They addressed their fellow Mormons with authority—as men “thoroughly acquainted with [the church’s] rise, its organization and its history.” If the Mormon community of Nauvoo had serious shortcomings, as the publishers asserted, then the church membership had to question the virtues claimed for it by Joseph Smith. Rather than a bastion of virtue in a corrupt nation as Smith insisted, the Law brothers asserted that Nauvoo was a place where moral, social, and political corruption reigned.
The Nauvoo “Expositor” Affair
 
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Peter1000

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That, of course, is the Mormon version. I believe theirs is a little bit different.


The Nauvoo Expositor was a newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois, that published only one issue, on June 7, 1844. Its publication set off a chain of events that led to the death of Joseph Smith.

The Expositor was founded by several seceders from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and some non-Mormons in the Nauvoo area. The single edition of the newspaper was critical of Smith and other church leaders. Specifically, Smith was criticized for teaching doctrines such as plural marriage and exaltation.[1]

In response to the newspaper's publication, Smith and the Nauvoo City Council declared the paper a public nuisance, and ordered the press destroyed.[2] The town marshal carried out the order during the evening of June 10.[3]

The destruction of the press led to charges of riot against Smith and other members of the Council. After Smith surrendered on the charges, he was also charged with treason against Illinois. Smith was killed by a mob while awaiting a trial in Carthage Jail.
Nauvoo Expositor - Wikipedia

The Expositor was intended from the beginning as a means of expressing dissent—perhaps the ultimate form of adherence to an ideal, for the dissenters feel it so important that they are willing to endure all forms of censure for it—and through it the publishers hoped to arouse the community against the secret practice of polygamy, raise concerns about other doctrines, and curb Joseph Smith’s theocratic control of the community.


The above the fold front page of the only issue of Expositor ever published.

When its only issue appeared on June 7, 1844, the Expositor excited the city’s leadership. It condemned the taking of plural wives and denounced the practice as a villainy by depicting the psychological pressure that was brought to bear on the selected women. It also deplored Joseph Smith’s attempts to gain and wield political power and called for greater separation of church and state at Nauvoo. The publishers listed a whole series of resolutions designed to bring religious, moral, and political reform to the community. Among other things, they opposed Smith’s efforts to hold himself above the law.

The Expositor not only opposed Smith’s control of Nauvoo, it held his behavior up to precisely the kind of critical examination that he had always managed to avoid within the church. And the publishers were very well informed. They addressed their fellow Mormons with authority—as men “thoroughly acquainted with [the church’s] rise, its organization and its history.” If the Mormon community of Nauvoo had serious shortcomings, as the publishers asserted, then the church membership had to question the virtues claimed for it by Joseph Smith. Rather than a bastion of virtue in a corrupt nation as Smith insisted, the Law brothers asserted that Nauvoo was a place where moral, social, and political corruption reigned.
The Nauvoo “Expositor” Affair
We can go back and forth as to why the Law brothers and other dissenters did what they did.

The one thing we can agree on is that it was a mistake for JS and the council to destroy the press. It lead to his arrest, which he agreed to and went willingly. He was charged with rioting and that is the reason he gave himself up.

The whole situation changed when the charge of treason was brought against him after he gave himself up. This was punishable by death. That changed everything. This was deplorable legal trickery, and then being put in a jail and his protection was administered by very men who wanted to kill him, he was absolutely justified to try to defend himself and especially his friends.
 
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mmksparbud

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We can go back and forth as to why the Law brothers and other dissenters did what they did.

The one thing we can agree on is that it was a mistake for JS and the council to destroy the press. It lead to his arrest, which he agreed to and went willingly. He was charged with rioting and that is the reason he gave himself up.

The whole situation changed when the charge of treason was brought against him after he gave himself up. This was punishable by death. That changed everything. This was deplorable legal trickery, and then being put in a jail and his protection was administered by very men who wanted to kill him, he was absolutely justified to try to defend himself and especially his friends.

Self defense is a legal right. As to whether or not this is something that is of God, is another matter. For no matter how justified they may have been---no apostle or other martyr tried to kill others, to defend themselves. It was your contention that the Mormons that were printing against JS had been printing articles and sending them to other towns when the truth is--this was their one and only issue. They had the right to print what they did. I've already stated that the murder of JS was wrong. This whole thing should have been played out in the courts---not like this.
 
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Peter1000

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Self defense is a legal right. As to whether or not this is something that is of God, is another matter. For no matter how justified they may have been---no apostle or other martyr tried to kill others, to defend themselves. It was your contention that the Mormons that were printing against JS had been printing articles and sending them to other towns when the truth is--this was their one and only issue. They had the right to print what they did. I've already stated that the murder of JS was wrong. This whole thing should have been played out in the courts---not like this.
You are right about the expositor only printing 1 article. But that group of dissenters were stirring up people from other towns especially Mr Sharp of Carthage, who had his own press and was printing all kinds of damning reports about JS that were coming from this group. It was primarily from his press that the mobs formed and started their destructive activities.

This whole thing should have been played out in the courts, not like this. Thank you.
 
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mmksparbud

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You are right about the expositor only printing 1 article. But that group of dissenters were stirring up people from other towns especially Mr Sharp of Carthage, who had his own press and was printing all kinds of damning reports about JS that were coming from this group. It was primarily from his press that the mobs formed and started their destructive activities.

This whole thing should have been played out in the courts, not like this. Thank you.

History attests to the fact that the death of any religious leader, for that matter any leader, does not mean the end of that groups ideas. A new leader will be elected. All this did was make JS a martyr to his people. Had this been allowed to go to court, he would have been revealed for what he was, an adulterer with a lust for power who had no regard for the rights of others. He still would have had his flowerers--just like this FLDS character that still leads his group from prison and they still believe he speaks for God.
He is a pedophile--which is what these people have all ended up as, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Mohamed, all of them--pedophiles in the end. And JS would have ended up the same with enough time, all the while claiming that this was of God--they all said that.
 
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Peter1000

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History attests to the fact that the death of any religious leader, for that matter any leader, does not mean the end of that groups ideas. A new leader will be elected. All this did was make JS a martyr to his people. Had this been allowed to go to court, he would have been revealed for what he was, an adulterer with a lust for power who had no regard for the rights of others. He still would have had his flowerers--just like this FLDS character that still leads his group from prison and they still believe he speaks for God.
He is a pedophile--which is what these people have all ended up as, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Mohamed, all of them--pedophiles in the end. And JS would have ended up the same with enough time, all the while claiming that this was of God--they all said that.
JS went to court lots of times. He was always found innocent. If he would have gone to court he would have been found innocent again.

He was not charged with destroying property, I believe in that day, states and city councils had wide berths in the respect of keeping the peace. He was charged with starting a riot. On this count, if he had been found guilty, he would have paid a fine and been released. On the count of treason, he would have been found innocent. So I wish it had gone to court, I believe he would have been found innocent on both counts. That he was an adulterer would not have come up. He was not an adulterer, but it would not have even come up.

Your pedophile theory is so far out of line it is silly.
 
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mmksparbud

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JS went to court lots of times. He was always found innocent. If he would have gone to court he would have been found innocent again.

He was not charged with destroying property, I believe in that day, states and city councils had wide berths in the respect of keeping the peace. He was charged with starting a riot. On this count, if he had been found guilty, he would have paid a fine and been released. On the count of treason, he would have been found innocent. So I wish it had gone to court, I believe he would have been found innocent on both counts. That he was an adulterer would not have come up. He was not an adulterer, but it would not have even come up.

Your pedophile theory is so far out of line it is silly.

It is what each and every one of these polygamist leaders have all done. Nothing silly about it. Totally supported by history. They start by saying God had told them to take extra wives, then the wives start getting younger and younger.
 
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Peter1000

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It is what each and every one of these polygamist leaders have all done. Nothing silly about it. Totally supported by history. They start by saying God had told them to take extra wives, then the wives start getting younger and younger.
That is not quite right, there you go using the word 'all' again.
 
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mmksparbud

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That is not quite right, there you go using the word 'all' again.

It's not just the history of polygamist sects in America. In China, in Africa, in the middle east----child brides ended up being the norm. It is the heart of man. It is still going on.
 
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Peter1000

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It's not just the history of polygamist sects in America. In China, in Africa, in the middle east----child brides ended up being the norm. It is the heart of man. It is still going on.
In the LDS plural marriage years, I will not say it did not happen, but it was not common. JS actually did marry 2 child brides, one was 13 and one was 15. He married them for eternity, but not for time. Therefore he was not married to them in this world, but will be married to them in the eternal worlds in the future. He also did not consumate the marriages and had no children from these girls.

So it happened sometimes. It was a different world in the 1830's, the legal age for marriage was 12. But it was not a common practice. Finally in 1890 the Lord commanded that we do not practice plural marriage any longer. The practice had accomplished what it was designed to accomplish, and it was now the law of the land to be married to only 1 woman, therefore the Church of Jesus Christ complied with the law of the land.
 
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mmksparbud

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There is no way to prove that JS's marriages were not consummated. It can only be proved that there were no children through DNA of suspected descendant.
And it seems like God didn't know what the law of the land was when He told JS to have plural marriages.
 
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Peter1000

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There is no way to prove that JS's marriages were not consummated. It can only be proved that there were no children through DNA of suspected descendant.
And it seems like God didn't know what the law of the land was when He told JS to have plural marriages.
The law of the land at the time JS was engaged in plural marriage did not prohibit plural marriage. It was repugnant to most, but not illegal. That is why the Federal government did not come after JS or anybody for plural marriage until Utah was founded and populated. It was during this time that the congress passed laws with teeth in it that it became illegal to have more than 1 wife.

Although if you were to do an exhaustive study of the congressmen and senators and judges and high up mucky mucks, you would have found a fashionable life style of many mistresses, of course not being honorably married to them. So we have the immoral masses throwing stones at men that married 2 or more women for a moral purpose. Not the finest hour in legislative history, or legislative morality.
 
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DNA now backs up what had on only been whispered about amongst the higher up's but known by the black community-- Presidents who fathered children with their black slaves. Many people have had quite a surprise when they had their DNA checked. The morality of man has always been rather low. So it's no surprise that having a "legal mistress" is wanted. In other words---legal adultery. And they do end up on down the line, getting younger and younger. It's great when our sins become---normal and OK and legal---and even to have God's approval.
 
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