LDS For Not Following Joseph Smith?

[BigDaddy4]

Why would you not answer this simple question? Is the word 'righteousness' so abhorent to you?

YOU were still not answering the question, but instead tried to deflect and ask your own question.

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus was never lost. He came to save sinners!

Matthew 9
10And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Your right Jesus was never lost, but he did have to take care of some of his Fathers business in order to be able to save us. That is what the term
'fulfill all righteousness' is about. Jesus had to fulfill all righteousness in order to save all mankind. He was up to the task, even though the temptation and pain factors were at a high level. He passed all the tests and did all that was required of him to bring us salvation.

We love you Jesus.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I cannot quote a scipture about proxy marriage in eternity

That should be a HUGE red flag - believing something that is not supported by Scripture.

 

[Peter1000]

YOU were still not answering the question, but instead tried to deflect and ask your own question.

Reread post 220 and see if I answered your question. If I didn't, ask again and I will answer.

 

[Peter1000]

That should be a HUGE red flag - believing something that is not supported by Scripture.

The Trinity is not supported by scripture, and what little there is, is rebutted by other biblical scripture.

You are tied to the Bible. What you believe better be letter perfect from the Bible. What you believe better be very clearly delineated without question. Do you know where that leaves you?

I OTOH have no such restrictions, I am not tied explicitly to the Bible or the BOM. I am tied to a real time oracle of God, that recieves current information about how to move the church of Jesus Christ forward. If it lines up perfectly with the Bible or the BOM great. If it doesn't, it is OK too. But it is not necessary to line up perfectly. For instance: The Lord commanded JS to practice plural marriage, but the NT is silent, except that a bishop should be the husband of 1 wife. The BOM actually declares against it.

The most important information from God is the most current, or else we would have never had Christianity, we would still be Jewish, worshiping in synagogues.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Your right Jesus was never lost, but he did have to take care of some of his Fathers business in order to be able to save us. That is what the term
'fulfill all righteousness' is about. Jesus had to fulfill all righteousness in order to save all mankind. He was up to the task, even though the temptation and pain factors were at a high level. He passed all the tests and did all that was required of him to bring us salvation.

We love you Jesus.

"Fulfill all righteousness" is not about passing some test. It was about fulfilling the law in order to enter the priesthood. In Jesus' case, the Melchizedek priesthood. Remember, he came to fulfill the law.

In Exodus 29 and Leviticus 8 we learn about the ceremonial consecration to enter the priesthood. This included being washed by water, being annointed with oil (which represents the Holy Spirit), and being verbally blessed. The baptism of Jesus by John, who was a priest himself, the descending of the Holy Spirit, and the verbal blessing from God the Father, all followed the ceremonial blueprint for entering the priesthood. This gave him the validity in Jewish law and practice to teach and preach in the synagogues. His disciples called him "Rabbi".

Notice that this event is described in Mark 1, Matthew 3, Luke 3, and John 1, and what follows those passages is the start of Jesus' earthly ministry. He starts preaching the good news and calls disciples to follow him.

Jesus being baptized was not about him being "saved". Therefore, you cannot equate our human baptisms with salvation.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Reread post 220 and see if I answered your question. If I didn't, ask again and I will answer.

To answer your question: Yes, Jesus needed to be baptized to be saved.
To 'fulfill all righteousness' = 'saved'. Jesus also needed to be obedient to his own Law of Christ.

Let me ask: if Jesus had yielded to temptation (we know it existed in the garden as he was praying) and had not gone through with the crucifiction, would he be saved?

Incorrect. See post 246.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The Trinity is not supported by scripture, and what little there is, is rebutted by other biblical scripture.

It is. You just cannot see it. Another red flag.

You are tied to the Bible. What you believe better be letter perfect from the Bible. What you believe better be very clearly delineated without question. Do you know where that leaves you?

I OTOH have no such restrictions, I am not tied explicitly to the Bible or the BOM. I am tied to a real time oracle of God, that recieves current information about how to move the church of Jesus Christ forward. If it lines up perfectly with the Bible or the BOM great. If it doesn't, it is OK too. But it is not necessary to line up perfectly. For instance: The Lord commanded JS to practice plural marriage, but the NT is silent, except that a bishop should be the husband of 1 wife. The BOM actually declares against it.

The most important information from God is the most current, or else we would have never had Christianity, we would still be Jewish, worshiping in synagogues.

The difference is building one's house of faith on the rock of Scripture (Christianity) vs. building on the sands of a false prophet's interpretation of scripture he didn't understand (all varients of the lds who follow Joseph Smith).

 

[Peter1000]

"Fulfill all righteousness" is not about passing some test. It was about fulfilling the law in order to enter the priesthood. In Jesus' case, the Melchizedek priesthood. Remember, he came to fulfill the law.

In Exodus 29 and Leviticus 8 we learn about the ceremonial consecration to enter the priesthood. This included being washed by water, being annointed with oil (which represents the Holy Spirit), and being verbally blessed. The baptism of Jesus by John, who was a priest himself, the descending of the Holy Spirit, and the verbal blessing from God the Father, all followed the ceremonial blueprint for entering the priesthood. This gave him the validity in Jewish law and practice to teach and preach in the synagogues. His disciples called him "Rabbi".

Notice that this event is described in Mark 1, Matthew 3, Luke 3, and John 1, and what follows those passages is the start of Jesus' earthly ministry. He starts preaching the good news and calls disciples to follow him.

Jesus being baptized was not about him being "saved". Therefore, you cannot equate our human baptisms with salvation.

1) Did Jesus fulfill the law in order to enter the preisthood? Or did Jesus enter the priesthood and then fulfill the law? It has to be the latter because it was his event on the cross that finally fulfilled the law. He had the priesthood by that time.

2) To compare Jesus' baptism to some kind of entering the priesthood ceremony is a real stretch. The OT anointing of Aaron and his sons is far more elaborate and far more ceremonial than was Jesus's simple baptism by John. Jesus was not receiving the priesthood at the time of his baptism.
He was baptized, received the HS, and was praised by his God and Father.

3) I will give you points for coming up with a decent explanation about what 'fulfill all righteousness' meant. Did Strong give you the idea that it meant to fulfill the law?
But alas, Jesus's fulfilling of the law, which primarily refers to the final sacrifice of the law of Moses, which was himself. As he finally died on the cross, the law of Moses came to an end, and the law of Christ was opened. It was now up to his representatives, the apostles, to teach and preach the law of Christ and how it manifests itself in our life. In many ways the law of Christ released Christians from much of the burdens of the law of Moses. But in other respects the law of Christ was stricter than the law of Moses. For instance: in the law of Moses you would have to committ physical adultery in order to be charged with adultery. In the law of Christ, just lusting after women, even if you don't actually committ physical adultery, Christ says you have committed adultery in your heart. Much more strict.

4) finally, when Jesus made the statement, "for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness', he was standing with John the baptist on the banks of the river Jordan and was ready to be baptized. John seemed to hesitate and so Jesus helped him by saying these words. If Jesus had neant these words to fulfill the law, he would have said, "for thus it becometh us to fulfil the law'.
John was not going to be part of fulfilling the law, only Christ could do that on the cross. But John was part of the command to fulfill all righteousness.
Even Jesus needed a priest to help him with this sacred ordinance.

 

[Peter1000]

It is. You just cannot see it. Another red flag.


The difference is building one's house of faith on the rock of Scripture (Christianity) vs. building on the sands of a false prophet's interpretation of scripture he didn't understand (all varients of the lds who follow Joseph Smith).

Try me on this one: Give me one event in the scriptures, or 1 scriptural passage that thouroughly explains the intricacies of the Holy Trinity?

Sorry, scripture is not the rock foundaton of the church of Christ. Revelation from Jesus Christ is the rock foundation of the church of Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

Incorrect. See post 246.

Incorrect, see post 249.

 

[mmksparbud]

Try me on this one: Give me one event in the scriptures, or 1 scriptural passage that thouroughly explains the intricacies of the Holy Trinity?

Sorry, scripture is not the rock foundaton of the church of Christ. Revelation from Jesus Christ is the rock foundation of the church of Christ.

It most certainly is. The whole of scripture. It was all that the disciples and all the first Christians needed to be saved. It was all that Christ read. It is taken in it's entirety, not just one or 2 verses about a topic. It is not about the letter of the law but about the spirit of it as Jesus said when saying that even looking at a woman with lust in your heart, you commit adultery. Whatever new theology that comes along must line up with what is already there or it must be thrown out. You throw out the bible and replace it with whatever new theology you think is right because some man says so, and whether that man is from the past or the present makes no difference. It is still theology that does not line up with the bible. The trinity does not need to be spelled out by a specific verse. For that matter, if eternal marriage were real, it would need no verse specifically saying it, it could be inferred by putting many verses together---but even doing that you can not reconcile even that with the bible for nothing states anywhere that it is eternal. It just says let no man put asunder. Everywhere it is obvious that the death of someone annuls all deals. Again, it is God that decides life and death not man and He puts an end to a marriage and allows remarriage after the death of a spouse. It is made even more obvious when Jesus is asked about it and He tells them they make a mistake as they do not know the scriptures and that in heaven there is no marriage and we will be as the angels.I will take the words of Jesus over any of your so called prophets any day. There is no marriage in heaven. That is not cryptic, veiled, or in any way obscure--plain and simple---no marriage in heaven for us or the angels.

 

[BigDaddy4]

1) Did Jesus fulfill the law in order to enter the preisthood? Or did Jesus enter the priesthood and then fulfill the law? It has to be the latter because it was his event on the cross that finally fulfilled the law. He had the priesthood by that time.

It was the law, or requirements, of the priesthood and how one was ordained into it, not the entirety of the OT law, which was finished at the cross. Sorry if that was not clear.

2) To compare Jesus' baptism to some kind of entering the priesthood ceremony is a real stretch. The OT anointing of Aaron and his sons is far more elaborate and far more ceremonial than was Jesus's simple baptism by John. Jesus was not receiving the priesthood at the time of his baptism.
He was baptized, received the HS, and was praised by his God and Father.

No stretch. It's rather factual to me. Jesus is a priest in the order Melchizedek priesthood (Hebrews 6:20). Melchizedek means "righteous king" in Hebrew. Hence, the "fulfillment of all righteousness".

3) I will give you points for coming up with a decent explanation about what 'fulfill all righteousness' meant. Did Strong give you the idea that it meant to fulfill the law?
But alas, Jesus's fulfilling of the law, which primarily refers to the final sacrifice of the law of Moses, which was himself. As he finally died on the cross, the law of Moses came to an end, and the law of Christ was opened. It was now up to his representatives, the apostles, to teach and preach the law of Christ and how it manifests itself in our life. In many ways the law of Christ released Christians from much of the burdens of the law of Moses. But in other respects the law of Christ was stricter than the law of Moses. For instance: in the law of Moses you would have to committ physical adultery in order to be charged with adultery. In the law of Christ, just lusting after women, even if you don't actually committ physical adultery, Christ says you have committed adultery in your heart. Much more strict.

The fulfillment of the law was finished at the cross. But it had to start somewhere. And it started with Jesus fulfilling the requirements to be a priest. A priest is one who could offer sacrifices for forgiveness of sins, as the law requires. Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice. Law fulfilled.

4) finally, when Jesus made the statement, "for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness', he was standing with John the baptist on the banks of the river Jordan and was ready to be baptized. John seemed to hesitate and so Jesus helped him by saying these words. If Jesus had neant these words to fulfill the law, he would have said, "for thus it becometh us to fulfil the law'.
John was not going to be part of fulfilling the law, only Christ could do that on the cross. But John was part of the command to fulfill all righteousness.
Even Jesus needed a priest to help him with this sacred ordinance.

You should really try to understand the gospel from a first century Jewish perspective. It's really fascinating. After all, Jesus, the Apostles, and most of his disciples were Jews before they were Christians. Your church claims to be the "restored church", so how can you not understand what went on in those times?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Try me on this one: Give me one event in the scriptures, or 1 scriptural passage that thouroughly explains the intricacies of the Holy Trinity?

Sorry, scripture is not the rock foundaton of the church of Christ. Revelation from Jesus Christ is the rock foundation of the church of Christ.

The Trinity is found throughout Scripture. Jesus' baptism for example. You just have to understand the totality of Scripture to understand it, rather than rely on the false teachings of false prophets.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Incorrect, see post 249.

Jesus did not need to be saved.

 

[Peter1000]

It most certainly is. The whole of scripture. It was all that the disciples and all the first Christians needed to be saved. It was all that Christ read.

This was a response because I said scripture is not the rock foundation of the church of Jesus Christ.

You responded, and I just want to show you how many errors you have made in this statement.

1) It most certainly is.
Show me a scripture that says that scripture is the foundation of the church of Jesus Christ. You will not find it, because Jesus is the foundation, along with apostles and prophets. Your worship of the scriptures is fanatical, especially when your interpretation is questionable and you ignore a fair % of them.

2) It was all that the disciples and all the first Christians needed to be saved???? Are you serious? I know you are, so stop it, come to your senses. The apostles and early Christians still had Jesus and his commandments as their Savior, not a book.

3) It is all that Christ read?
Either you are ignorant of early Biblical history, or you are willfully willing to tell a falsehood to make your point. If you are ignorant, let me tell you a blockbuster piece of information, the NT did not exist when Jesus was alive. So how could Jesus read a non-existing book?

That is just the first couple of lines of this post, guess what the rest is made up of????

 

[Peter1000]

The Trinity is found throughout Scripture. Jesus' baptism for example. You just have to understand the totality of Scripture to understand it, rather than rely on the false teachings of false prophets.

Jesus's baptism does indeed prove that there are 3 (Trinity) in the 1 Godhead.
The only problem you have is the baptism proves the 3 are in 3 separate and distinct locations all at the same time.

1) Jesus coming out of the river
2) God the Father in the heavens
3) HS between God in the heavens and Jesus on the earth.

This happens to be Mormon doctrine, not mainstream Christian doctrine. Sorry, try another event.

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus did not need to be saved.

1) Then why was he baptized?

2) Why did he need a priest (John the baptist) to help him?

3) How did his baptism fulfill all righteousness?

 

[mmksparbud]

This was a response because I said scripture is not the rock foundation of the church of Jesus Christ.

You responded, and I just want to show you how many errors you have made in this statement.

1) It most certainly is.
Show me a scripture that says that scripture is the foundation of the church of Jesus Christ. You will not find it, because Jesus is the foundation, along with apostles and prophets. Your worship of the scriptures is fanatical, especially when your interpretation is questionable and you ignore a fair % of them.

2) It was all that the disciples and all the first Christians needed to be saved???? Are you serious? I know you are, so stop it, come to your senses. The apostles and early Christians still had Jesus and his commandments as their Savior, not a book.

3) It is all that Christ read?
Either you are ignorant of early Biblical history, or you are willfully willing to tell a falsehood to make your point. If you are ignorant, let me tell you a blockbuster piece of information, the NT did not exist when Jesus was alive. So how could Jesus read a non-existing book?

That is just the first couple of lines of this post, guess what the rest is made up of????

Are you seriously thinking that anyone doesn't know that the NT did not exist at the time of Jesus??

2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

What do you think these verses are talking about---the OT--I was assuming that you would know this and did not have to spell it out.

Until the time of Jesus the way to salvation was through animal sacrifice. They didn't have Jesus---not knowingly by that name. And the only way to find out about this was through study of the scriptures. It was what every Jewish child did, study the scriptures. And it was what Jesus Himself did and knew them so well that He could teach the elders when He was 12. Are you so used to be told what to think that I must spell every detail out? Of course it is Jesus that saves---that should not even have to be said to anyone with any kind of spiritual discernment at all. I knew a guy that all you had to do was state a book name and verse number and he could rattle off the verse. He kept a file of cards with verses. You could also state a verse and he would tell you the book and verse number to find it in. He knew his bible backwards and forwards. He was also a total and complete drunk, who would end up pan handling for booze money at the store parking lot. He knew the bible---he did not know Jesus.
It is still the word of God---the whole bible now--that the Holy Spirit uses to teach us who God the Father and God the Son is. JS does not teach who God is--God Himself does that through His word. That is why JS did not know God the Father or Jesus, His only Son--he was not acquainted with His testimony of Himself, he was too busy coming up with his own version of salvation to understand the truth.

 

[mmksparbud]

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Luk_24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Act_28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

It comes as no great surprise you could not understand what I said. If you had spent more time with the word of God instead of with the word of JS, you would have.