LDS For Not Following Joseph Smith?

[Peter1000]

BigDaddy4 says,

No stretch. It's rather factual to me. Jesus is a priest in the order Melchizedek priesthood (Hebrews 6:20). Melchizedek means "righteous king" in Hebrew. Hence, the "fulfillment of all righteousness".

So you are saying that because Jesus became a priest in the order of Melchizedek, and that name meant 'righteous king', you think that was what Jesus meant when at his baptism he told John the Baptist that they needed to fulfill all righteousness???

Well, I believe you are partially right. Being ordained to the MP (BTW who ordained Jesus to the priesthood?) was just 1 piece of the
'fulfill all rightesness' puzzle. I believe his baptism was essential, I believe his ministry was essential, I believe his ordination into the MP was essential, I believe his suffereing and death was essential, and I believe his resurrection was essential. All of these events constitute the doctrine of
'fulfilling all righteousness'.

You should really try to understand the gospel from a first century Jewish perspective. It's really fascinating. After all, Jesus, the Apostles, and most of his disciples were Jews before they were Christians. Your church claims to be the "restored church", so how can you not understand what went on in those times?

Our scholars are just as astute as any scholars in the world at unraveling the events that took place at the time of Christ and during the period of the apostles. Beyond scholars though, we feel that our prophets add details that are not available to the scholars. That is why I say that a 10 minute interview with God and Jesus gave JS more information about the Trinity than all the scholars and their books piled up to the moon. Just a for instance: If you believe in the Trinity, and that was the standard Christian belief of 3 Persons
in 1 God, then if the Trinity were to come to you, you would see 1 God in front of you. However, JS saw 2 Persons in front of him and so thousands of years of debate and guesswork and philosophic discussion and even war came to and end. The Godhead was truly a Trinity, but now the true make up of the Godhead was revealed again and the truth about God and His son and the HS was restored again.

 

[Peter1000]

Are you seriously thinking that anyone doesn't know that the NT did not exist at the time of Jesus??

2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

What do you think these verses are talking about---the OT--I was assuming that you would know this and did not have to spell it out.

Until the time of Jesus the way to salvation was through animal sacrifice. They didn't have Jesus---not knowingly by that name. And the only way to find out about this was through study of the scriptures. It was what every Jewish child did, study the scriptures. And it was what Jesus Himself did and knew them so well that He could teach the elders when He was 12. Are you so used to be told what to think that I must spell every detail out? Of course it is Jesus that saves---that should not even have to be said to anyone with any kind of spiritual discernment at all. I knew a guy that all you had to do was state a book name and verse number and he could rattle off the verse. He kept a file of cards with verses. You could also state a verse and he would tell you the book and verse number to find it in. He knew his bible backwards and forwards. He was also a total and complete drunk, who would end up pan handling for booze money at the store parking lot. He knew the bible---he did not know Jesus.
It is still the word of God---the whole bible now--that the Holy Spirit uses to teach us who God the Father and God the Son is. JS does not teach who God is--God Himself does that through His word. That is why JS did not know God the Father or Jesus, His only Son--he was not acquainted with His testimony of Himself, he was too busy coming up with his own version of salvation to understand the truth.

JS knew new more about the Godhead in his 10 minute interview than any person since Paul had his 10 minute interview on the road to Damascus.
That is why he was willing to die for this knowledge, he could not walk away.

The bible is the word of God, the BOM is the word of God, but they are not God. They are not to be worshiped like God. They are supplements to the revealed, real time words of God. If God has determined to make some changes in how the 2017 church is run, He does not have to go back to the 33ad church and do exactly what they did. Since His hanywork is on that church also, you would think it would be close to that church, but problems in 2017 may be a little different that 33. So being God, He can run the 2017 church a little different than he ran the 33 church. And anyone telling God that he can't because its not in the bible, would just look foolish.

 

[Peter1000]

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Luk_24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Act_28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

It comes as no great surprise you could not understand what I said. If you had spent more time with the word of God instead of with the word of JS, you would have.

Some of the words of JS are the words of God, similar to Peter or Paul or John.
Read up.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Jesus's baptism does indeed prove that there are 3 (Trinity) in the 1 Godhead.
The only problem you have is the baptism proves the 3 are in 3 separate and distinct locations all at the same time.

1) Jesus coming out of the river
2) God the Father in the heavens
3) HS between God in the heavens and Jesus on the earth.

This happens to be Mormon doctrine, not mainstream Christian doctrine. Sorry, try another event.

Regardless of what Scripture is presented, that will be your answer. So I will decline to chase you down the rabbit holes of your misunderstandings.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Well, I believe you are partially right. Being ordained to the MP (BTW who ordained Jesus to the priesthood?) was just 1 piece of the
'fulfill all rightesness' puzzle. I believe his baptism was essential, I believe his ministry was essential, I believe his ordination into the MP was essential, I believe his suffereing and death was essential, and I believe his resurrection was essential. All of these events constitute the doctrine of
'fulfilling all righteousness'.

The fulfillment of "fulfill all righteousness" was to do "this". "This' is singular. The "this" was the baptism. You are adding to scripture where it is not necessary.

Our scholars are just as astute as any scholars in the world at unraveling the events that took place at the time of Christ and during the period of the apostles. Beyond scholars though, we feel that our prophets add details that are not available to the scholars. That is why I say that a 10 minute interview with God and Jesus gave JS more information about the Trinity than all the scholars and their books piled up to the moon.

There are no mormon scholars that I am aware of that have any Biblical scholarly credibility outside of the mormon church. This "interview" you speak of may have been a spiritual encounter, but it was not with God and Jesus...

However, JS saw 2 Persons in front of him

... for exactly this reason. It does not align with Scriptures. God is not a man.

 

[mmksparbud]

JS knew new more about the Godhead in his 10 minute interview than any person since Paul had his 10 minute interview on the road to Damascus.
That is why he was willing to die for this knowledge, he could not walk away.

The bible is the word of God, the BOM is the word of God, but they are not God. They are not to be worshiped like God. They are supplements to the revealed, real time words of God. If God has determined to make some changes in how the 2017 church is run, He does not have to go back to the 33ad church and do exactly what they did. Since His hanywork is on that church also, you would think it would be close to that church, but problems in 2017 may be a little different that 33. So being God, He can run the 2017 church a little different than he ran the 33 church. And anyone telling God that he can't because its not in the bible, would just look foolish.

They are not to be worshiped like God

I know of no Christian who does. Mormons, on the other hand, base their knowledge of God and salvation on JS writings--not on the word of God---that is worship.

That is why he was willing to die for this knowledge, he could not walk away.

He wasn't willing to die---he was desperately trying to save himself and was screaming for help from the masons. He ordered a printing press destroyed -- owned and operated by other Mormons who were against polygamy. That is when the nearby cities decided to arrest him and JS, as mayor of the city (he was also running for President of this country), declared martial law in Nauvoo.
"Others did not trust the law to resolve the situation. Thomas Sharp, editor of the Warsaw Signal, wrote, “We hold ourselves at all times in readyness to co-operate with our fellow citizens . . . to exterminate, utterly exterminate, the wicked and abominable Mormon leaders.” He even called for an attack on Nauvoo, declaring, “Strike them! For the time has fully come.”5
Hearing these threats, Joseph Smith was reluctant to go to trial in Carthage and sought resolution from nearby judges."
The brothers were in the Carthage jail awaiting trial when the mob attacked.
"After emptying the pistol with which he tried to defend himself, Joseph was then shot several times while trying to escape from a second-story window, and fell from the window as he died."Richards reported that he was shot twice in the back and a third bullet, fired from a musket on the ground outside, hit him in the chest.[5]:v6,p620
hhttps://history.lds.org/article/museum-treasures-powder-horn?lang=engttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith


No one, willing to die for his faith, shoots others trying to protect himself. In sharp contrast to Christ that when Peter sliced off the ear of a Roman guard, Jesus told Peter to out up His sword and healed the man. Not one of the apostles tried to kill others in defense of himself when facing certain death.

God does direct people even in this day and age --indeed, right this minute--just as Jesus Christ said He would
Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Luk_11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

JS knew new more about the Godhead in his 10 minute interview than any person since Paul

That's the trouble--he never had that interview, there never were any plates.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

.

 

[Peter1000]

I know of no Christian who does. Mormons, on the other hand, base their knowledge of God and salvation on JS writings--not on the word of God---that is worship.



He wasn't willing to die---he was desperately trying to save himself and was screaming for help from the masons. He ordered a printing press destroyed -- owned and operated by other Mormons who were against polygamy. That is when the nearby cities decided to arrest him and JS, as mayor of the city (he was also running for President of this country), declared martial law in Nauvoo.
"Others did not trust the law to resolve the situation. Thomas Sharp, editor of the Warsaw Signal, wrote, “We hold ourselves at all times in readyness to co-operate with our fellow citizens . . . to exterminate, utterly exterminate, the wicked and abominable Mormon leaders.” He even called for an attack on Nauvoo, declaring, “Strike them! For the time has fully come.”5
Hearing these threats, Joseph Smith was reluctant to go to trial in Carthage and sought resolution from nearby judges."
The brothers were in the Carthage jail awaiting trial when the mob attacked.
"After emptying the pistol with which he tried to defend himself, Joseph was then shot several times while trying to escape from a second-story window, and fell from the window as he died."Richards reported that he was shot twice in the back and a third bullet, fired from a musket on the ground outside, hit him in the chest.[5]:v6,p620
hhttps://history.lds.org/article/museum-treasures-powder-horn?lang=engttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith


No one, willing to die for his faith, shoots others trying to protect himself. In sharp contrast to Christ that when Peter sliced off the ear of a Roman guard, Jesus told Peter to out up His sword and healed the man. Not one of the apostles tried to kill others in defense of himself when facing certain death.

God does direct people even in this day and age --indeed, right this minute--just as Jesus Christ said He would
Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Luk_11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?




That's the trouble--he never had that interview, there never were any plates.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

.

So because JS was reluctant to go to Carthage to be tried, knowing that the very people that were put in charge of protecting him were the very people who were threatening to kill him. Wow he must have been a monster to not trust that situation.

He was willing to go, however, and he prophecied that he would not return, and it turned out to be true. With so many witnesses, how is it possible that no one was found guilty of murder by these righteous outstanding people?

 

[mmksparbud]

So because JS was reluctant to go to Carthage to be tried, knowing that the very people that were put in charge of protecting him were the very people who were threatening to kill him. Wow he must have been a monster to not trust that situation.

He was willing to go, however, and he prophecied that he would not return, and it turned out to be true. With so many witnesses, how is it possible that no one was found guilty of murder by these righteous outstanding people?

He died trying to climb out a window. He did not facing his judgement face on as have all other martyrs and no one has said these were righteous outstanding people nor that what they did was right. They will answer to God for it.

 

[Ironhold]

He died trying to climb out a window.

...After it became clear that the mob was willing to kill everyone in the room with him if he didn't put some distance between them and him. This is something that most people outside of the church seem to not be aware of.

...But then again, I've found far more mainline Christians willing to tell me that they think Joseph Smith & co. deserved to die for being "heretics" than are willing to tell me that they agree his death was cold-blooded murder, so...

 

[mmksparbud]

...After it became clear that the mob was willing to kill everyone in the room with him if he didn't put some distance between them and him. This is something that most people outside of the church seem to not be aware of.

...But then again, I've found far more mainline Christians willing to tell me that they think Joseph Smith & co. deserved to die for being "heretics" than are willing to tell me that they agree his death was cold-blooded murder, so...

The mob was going in to drag him out and kill him, period. It was murder, pure and simple. They took the law into their own hands and it can not be excused. He did not try to go out the window for any reason other than to get away from the mob. Your church can try to minimize the fact that he died in a different manner than is plainly obvious, trying to kill others to save himself and running away. A true martyr would have faced the crowd and taken what they were going to do as all other martyrs have done. That does not in any way make what the crowd did right. "Heretics" no matter from what faith they are, do not deserve to die. All protestants have been declared heretics. Anyone who leaves their faith is called a heretic by that faith. That is no excuse for murder. Everyone who has ever laid a hand on any heretic will have to answer to God for it. And no one will be able to talk their way out it. Murder is wrong, period. If someone commits a crime worthy of death, the death penalty is a biblical way to punish, however, it should be reserved for cold-blooded murderers without conscience and child killers as far as I'm concerned. I would have no trouble (I don't think) throwing stones at a child rapist, killer.
But a man with delusions of grander, who has decided to destroy private property for speaking against him, still is no reason to kill him. The guy with the press has the right of free speech and JS was wrong in what he did---but no excuse for murder. JS also has a protected right for his believes, whether or not we like them. It may be offensive to Christians--but no Christian should ever lay a hand on anyone for their religious believes, for eventually, someone will turn on them for theirs.
I read of some SDA's who think the Sabbath should be upheld by law---I was totally appalled to hear such rubbish and so was any other SDA I know. The trouble with power, as the old saying goes, is it corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Ironhold]

A true martyr would have faced the crowd and taken what they were going to do as all other martyrs have done.

JS didn't use force until *after* the blind volley that killed Hiram. That was when it became apparent that the mob was willing to kill whoever stood in their way as well.

The guy with the press has the right of free speech

Actually, only the federal government was beholden to the Bill of Rights at the time; it wasn't until a number of later Supreme Court decisions that local and state governments had to abide by it as well. This is also something that a lot of folks don't know.

Illinois Common Law did in fact allow for city councils to order the seizure of "nuisance" presses, and so the Nauvoo City Council instructed JS - the mayor - to do so. The issue is how the order to seize the press became an order to destroy it.

 

[mmksparbud]

JS didn't use force until *after* the blind volley that killed Hiram. That was when it became apparent that the mob was willing to kill whoever stood in their way as well.



Actually, only the federal government was beholden to the Bill of Rights at the time; it wasn't until a number of later Supreme Court decisions that local and state governments had to abide by it as well. This is also something that a lot of folks don't know.

Illinois Common Law did in fact allow for city councils to order the seizure of "nuisance" presses, and so the Nauvoo City Council instructed JS - the mayor - to do so. The issue is how the order to seize the press became an order to destroy it.

Again. Everyone that came at every martyr came with the intention of murder--from Jesus to those that were fed to the lions, to today. They did not die trying to kill others to saver themselves or those around them, including their own families. Why should he be any different?
Are you saying the JS felt perfectly justified in destroying private property and so d you? I mean, obviously he thought so. I have no doubt that he considered this press a nuisance, it was other Mormons saying he was wrong, that polygamy was just lust and adultery and that JS was after power by wanting to be president. They were right. He went after other Mormons, because they disagreed with him. You seem to think they were not filled with the Holy Spirit by going against him and were heretics and that gave JS the right to do what he did. Was he right---or were they?

 

[Ironhold]

Are you saying the JS felt perfectly justified in destroying private property and so d you?

I'm saying "someone dun goofed."

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm saying "someone dun goofed."

Question is---who?
I vote, both sides.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I'm saying "someone dun goofed."

Your prophet, a supposed mouthpiece of God, "dun goofed"?? I wonder what else he "dun goofed" at...

 

[Ironhold]

Your prophet, a supposed mouthpiece of God, "dun goofed"?? I wonder what else he "dun goofed" at...

You mean like how Moses was guilty of second-degree murder and then fled the country to avoid punishment?

Or how Paul was an accessory to murder?

Or how Simon Zealotes is suspected as having been a religiously-motivated terrorist?

Or how David was a mercenary in the employ of the Philistines?

Like that?

 

[mmksparbud]

You mean like how Moses was guilty of second-degree murder and then fled the country to avoid punishment?

Or how Paul was an accessory to murder?

Or how Simon Zealotes is suspected as having been a religiously-motivated terrorist?

Or how David was a mercenary in the employ of the Philistines?

Like that?

None of who claimed to be a prophet of God. Moses was not called to be a spokesperson for God until 40 years after that. David was never s prophet--he became king---and even kings went to prophets. Prophets are held to a higher standard, have to be if you're speaking for God.

 

[BigDaddy4]

You mean like how Moses was guilty of second-degree murder and then fled the country to avoid punishment?

Or how Paul was an accessory to murder?

Or how Simon Zealotes is suspected as having been a religiously-motivated terrorist?

Or how David was a mercenary in the employ of the Philistines?

Like that?

Uh, no. What she said:

None of who claimed to be a prophet of God. Moses was not called to be a spokesperson for God until 40 years after that. David was never s prophet--he became king---and even kings went to prophets. Prophets are held to a higher standard, have to be if you're speaking for God.

Plus, Paul's "accessory to murder" was pre-Demascus road encounter turned conversion. And, no biblical reference for Simon.

Poorly presented arguments for one who has claimed to be so successful in apologetics for such a long time.

 

[fatboys]

Your prophet, a supposed mouthpiece of God, "dun goofed"?? I wonder what else he "dun goofed" at...

All prophets good. They are not perfect. After leading Israel for forty years and not being able to enter the promise land I bet he wishes he would have just took a second one before he opened his mouth

 

[Peter1000]

Again. Everyone that came at every martyr came with the intention of murder--from Jesus to those that were fed to the lions, to today. They did not die trying to kill others to saver themselves or those around them, including their own families. Why should he be any different?
Are you saying the JS felt perfectly justified in destroying private property and so d you? I mean, obviously he thought so. I have no doubt that he considered this press a nuisance, it was other Mormons saying he was wrong, that polygamy was just lust and adultery and that JS was after power by wanting to be president. They were right. He went after other Mormons, because they disagreed with him. You seem to think they were not filled with the Holy Spirit by going against him and were heretics and that gave JS the right to do what he did. Was he right---or were they?

You are aware that a Mormon press was siezed and torched a few years earlier.
Why haven't you mentioned this? Who took care of JS when his printing press was destroyed?