"For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

inquiring mind · Sep 6, 2019

Hammster said:
If God does the final determination, then salvation is a reward for doing good.

Not sure where you're headed with this... I would think the short answer is, yes, but for doing good in His eyes and according to His plan.

Hammster · Sep 6, 2019

inquiring mind said:
Not sure where you're headed with this... I would think the short answer is, yes, but for doing good in His eyes and according to His plan.

Is the good that we do in order to be chosen done in the flesh or the Spirit?

inquiring mind · Sep 6, 2019

A.ModerateOne said:
The idea that God chooses based on our initiative to repent and believe ignores the fact that faith and repentance are God's gift to the elect, to the chosen:

Faith a gift: Phil. 1:29; Heb. 12:2; Acts 18:27; Gal. 5:22 & Rom. 12:23 compared to 2 Thess. 3:2
Repentance a gift: 2 Tim. 2:25; Acts 5:31; 11:18

Didn’t ‘the creation story’ teach us that ‘our choices’ have consequences?

Do you believe that with no faith and repentance in your heart (under God’s plan of salvation), and not accepting your fallen state and Jesus as your savior... you could still be among the elect (chosen)?

Do you believe any of the verses you quote here are not inclusive of God’s plan of salvation?

inquiring mind · Sep 6, 2019

Hammster said:
Is the good that we do in order to be chosen done in the flesh or the Spirit?

First, let me ask a question: Do you think Jesus was referring to the flesh or the spirit when He gave us the greatest commandments?

Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Hammster · Sep 6, 2019

inquiring mind said:
First, let me ask a question: Do you think Jesus was referring to the flesh or the spirit when He gave us the greatest commandments?

Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Neither. Now, can you answer my question?

GenemZ · Sep 6, 2019

DamianWarS said:
those "chosen" are selected by wearing the right wedding garments, but there doesn't seem to be any discrimination with the called, even the original are still called, they just aren't interested in attending.

the important things to follow would be:

1) show up at the wedding (don't turn down the invitation or kill the messenger)
2) wear the right clothes (otherwise you're kicked out)

so with this in mind perhaps a better question would be "how do we get the right clothes on?"

Not "we." Not we the Church.

Jesus was speaking to Jews about the eternal future for Jews who will believe as Jews. The Church age has been an interruption of the Jewish age. We are here, and then we will be removed (Rapture). Removed so that Jews can continue to have eternal life as promised on the "New Earth." Our home on the other hand, will be in Heaven! There will be a new heaven and new earth. Both contain certain believers designated for each location.

Big differences. We all need to rightly divide the Word of God. Jesus came to the Jews. He taught Jews about what pertained to the future for Jews who believed (as Jews). David will have the eternal life promised to the Jews. So will Moses and Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. Its easy to get confused about. Then again, some,of those Jews whom Jesus taught entered into the new realm of the Church age. Yet even the great Jewish believer John the Baptist did not enter into the Church age.

Saved Jews outside the Church age = Home will be unending peace and beauty on the new earth.

Saved Jews inside the Church age = no longer Jews. Now a new creation in Christ along with Gentiles who believe during the Church age. Our home will not be on the new earth. Our mansions will be found in the Heaven.

grace and peace...

public hermit · Sep 6, 2019

Much of the discussion on this thread seems to be focused on one of two options:

1) The banquet is filled by those who choose to go.
2) The banquet is filled by those whom God has chosen.

There seems to be the assumption that it must be one or the other. By why such an assumption? Why isn't it a live possibility that both (1) and (2) hold true?

It is as if we have made this distinction, i.e. that it must be either (1) or (2), but not both. And then, we read the passage (Matthew 22:1-14) through the lens of that distinction. I would argue that if we allow the passage to speak for itself, we find reasons to believe both (1) and (2) entail within the passage. There is a technical term for this position: compatibilism. Compatibilism assumes both: humans make choices and are responsible for those choices and God is wholly sovereign.

Compatibilism is not often a popular choice because it does not attempt to resolve the logical tension that occurs when we consider God's sovereignty and human freedom in conjunction. That is why this is always a big discussion and no consensus is ever achieved. We want to resolve the logical tension either in favor of God's sovereignty or in favor of human freedom. And because the answer is not obvious, people resolve it differently.

Even so, as Christians we have precedent for holding positions that allow the logical tension to remain in place without trying to resolve it. Both orthodox (in the wide sense of the word) doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation hold the tension in place, without trying to resolve it. I suggest we do the same when it comes to God's sovereignty and human freedom. And, this particular passage is just one more instance where we see both human freedom and God choosing taking place.

In other words, this passage assumes compatibilism and then we pit God's sovereignty and human freedom against each other by bringing the assumption, that they must be pitted against each other, to the text.

GenemZ · Sep 6, 2019

inquiring mind said:
First, let me ask a question: Do you think Jesus was referring to the flesh or the spirit when He gave us the greatest commandments?

Matthew 22:36-40 New International Version (NIV)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

That's a great message. It was given to Jews.

Jesus came to show Jews how to be perfect Jews. After all, Jesus was the perfect Rabbi.

During that time the Pharisees had corrupted Judaism, and Jesus came as a reformation to get back to what God intended for the Jews. The Church age was yet hidden and a mystery. One that no one was to yet know about.

Jesus was revealing Judaism to the Jews as God intended it to be. Its why Jesus hated the corrupt effects the influence of the Pharisees had been causing in the land.

We are now commanded to love one another as He has loved us. Back then they were commanded to love others as one loves oneself. New command for the Church. Jesus taught Judaism as it should have been. The Church is a new and different spiritual way of life that Jews could not have fulfilled without the indwelling Holy Spirit in each believer as the means to have the grace power to live that new life. They had Law. We have grace.

GenemZ · Sep 6, 2019

Chadrho said:
Much of the discussion on this thread seems to be focused on one of two options:

1) The banquet is filled by those who choose to go.
2) The banquet is filled by those whom God has chosen.

There seems to be the assumption that it must be one or the other. By why such an assumption? Why isn't it a live possibility that both (1) and (2) hold true?

That speaks of people who will be alive during the Tribulation. For during those years EVERYONE will be evangelized. All will be called. Only a few in comparison will believe.

It speaks not about the Church age. We will be in Heaven with the Lord when that takes place on earth. We will be made prepared to rule with the Lord when He returns to earth during those seven years of the Tribulation on earth.

Jesus came as a Rabbi teaching Jews truths that pertains to Jews. The Church age was yet unknown and hidden. Later Paul was chosen to expound upon the mystery of the Church.

Jesus came as a Jew, to Jews. Some Gentiles may have listened in. But what Jesus spoke of pertained to promises found in the OT Scriptures for the Jews. Jesus mentioned that Gentiles in the future were to be brought in. Yes. But, not at that time. Not before the Cross to have the Church age begin.

grace and peace....

public hermit · Sep 6, 2019

genez said:
That speaks of people who will be alive during the Tribulation. For during those years EVERYONE will be evangelized. All will be called. Only a few in comparison will believe.

It speaks not about the Church age. We will be in Heaven with the Lord when that takes place on earth. We will be made prepared to rule with the Lord when He returns to earth during those seven years of the Tribulation on earth.

Jesus came as a Rabbi teaching Jews truths that pertains to Jews. The Church age was yet unknown and hidden. Later Paul was chosen to expound upon the mystery of the Church.

Jesus came as a Jew, to Jews. Some Gentiles may have listened in. But what Jesus spoke of pertained to promises found in the OT Scriptures for the Jews. Jesus mentioned that Gentiles in the future were to be brought in. Yes. But, not at that time. Not before the Cross to have the Church age begin.

grace and peace....

Well, yes. If you take that reading then what I said may not be of much help.

eleos1954 · Sep 6, 2019

redleghunter said:
In the parable of the Wedding Banquet, Jesus concludes in Matthew 22:14:

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

In a previous thread we spoke about the general call of the Gospel. Is Jesus in the parable of the Wedding Banquet making a distinction between those who are “invited” to hear the Gospel but “He who has ears, let him hear” (Matthew 13:43) are chosen?

Thoughts. Jesus clearly makes a distinction between those who are called and those who are chosen.

The purpose of the call to the wedding supper is to gather to Christ; all the children of God scattered abroad, John 10:16
John 11:52. The case of hypocrites is represented by the guest that did not have on a wedding-garment. The righteousness of
Christ received by faith in Him, and the sanctification of the Spirit, are both necessary.

To be without the wedding garments, offered freely to us, implies that the we think our usual attire is good enough. The man without the wedding garment therefore represents one who, while professing to be for Christ, thought his own righteousness
would save him without a trustful obedience to the Savior.

Without being clothed with the redeeming grace of the king (Christ) (wedding garment provided) one stands before the king in filthy rags.

Those chosen to attend the Royal wedding of the King will have the proper "clothing" to attend the wedding.

redleghunter · Sep 6, 2019

inquiring mind said:
Didn’t ‘the creation story’ teach us that ‘our choices’ have consequences?

Do you believe that with no faith and repentance in your heart (under God’s plan of salvation), and not accepting your fallen state and Jesus as your savior... you could still be among the elect (chosen)?

Do you believe any of the verses you quote here are not inclusive of God’s plan of salvation?

The first lesson of the Creation is that God created us out of dust.

I guess with a 21st century mindset we could say Adam and Eve were created against their will.

eleos1954 · Sep 6, 2019

redleghunter said:
The first lesson of the Creation is that God created us out of dust.

I guess with a 21st century mindset we could say Adam and Eve were created against their will.

They didn't have a will or anything, much less any intelligence of any kind (self awareness) .... they didn't exist ... non-existant.

redleghunter · Sep 6, 2019

eleos1954 said:
They didn't have a will or anything, much less any intelligence of any kind (self awareness) .... they didn't exist ... non-existant.

Kind of like being spiritually dead.

redleghunter · Sep 6, 2019

DamianWarS said:
those "chosen" are selected by wearing the right wedding garments, but there doesn't seem to be any discrimination with the called, even the original are still called, they just aren't interested in attending.

the important things to follow would be:

1) show up at the wedding (don't turn down the invitation or kill the messenger)
2) wear the right clothes (otherwise you're kicked out)

so with this in mind perhaps a better question would be "how do we get the right clothes on?"

Yet the man without the wedding garment did attend the feast.

eleos1954 · Sep 6, 2019

redleghunter said:
Kind of like being spiritually dead.

to be dead ... one had to have an existence (self awareness) ... so no ... nothing is nothing.

A.ModerateOne · Sep 6, 2019

inquiring mind said:
Didn’t ‘the creation story’ teach us that ‘our choices’ have consequences?

Do you believe that with no faith and repentance in your heart (under God’s plan of salvation), and not accepting your fallen state and Jesus as your savior... you could still be among the elect (chosen)?

Do you believe any of the verses you quote here are not inclusive of God’s plan of salvation?

Adam was not just morally neutral, the creation was declared "good" by God, so Adam was holy. After the sin of Adam, man is bound by his sinful nature, he is spiritually dead. Adam indeed had free will, but after Adam, natural man has no free will to spiritual goodness and love of God. That's why faith and repentance must be gifts from God.

I do not follow your 2nd question.

If we set aside that God is eternal and use our concept of time I see salvation like this: God's choice of the elect before creation and written down in the lamb's book of life at that time (Eph.1:4; Rev. 13:8) God by his own sovereign will, purpose and timing gives the new birth, being born from above. Faith and repentance are the first responses of the new spiritual life. We are instantaneously justified through faith in Jesus Christ and then there is the life-long process of sanctification, which is guaranteed to be completed at the last day and it is also of grace:

"May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do this." (1Thess 5:23-24, NRSV)

No sanctification happening is evidence that one is not truly a child of God:

"Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, 'If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.'” (John 8:31-32, NRSV)

GenemZ · Sep 6, 2019

Chadrho said:
Well, yes. If you take that reading then what I said may not be of much help.

Not necessarily... Everyone who contributes for clarification helps.

DamianWarS · Sep 6, 2019

genez said:
Saved Jews inside the Church age = no longer Jews. Now a new creation in Christ along with Gentiles who believe during the Church age. Our home will not be on the new earth. Our mansions will be found in the Heaven.

right, the first invitations out sent to the those with first rights to them, they turn it down, so it went to the streets who "filled the wedding hall" with "the bad as well as the good". however, it's not these characteristics that they are discriminated against but later it's revealed it is their improper wedding garments that they are discriminated against.

The King is God the Father, the son being honoured is Christ. the invitation is God's message, the servants giving the message are God's messengers such as the prophets that everyone typically hated during their time. The first who receive the invitation is Isreal. The King was persistent so they abused the servants and even killed some (like John the baptist) then there is an act of vengeance by the King, can we say the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

Now the wedding invitation (the gospel) is released to the streets (the great commission, to all the word, "Pante ta Ethne) the streets are the world and the people that dwell in them are the Gentiles. Where do we fit? of course the Gentiles. We are the second party invited to the party.

The meaning of the garments have been wrestled with for a while as to what they actually are, Luther thought it was Christ but this is not so, as Christ is the son but it can be something Christ gives us. The parable tells us both the good and the bad were invited so it is not the condition of their natural self that rejects a person or not, and if there were willing to come it seems to be good enough. No, when we come to Christ we are a new creation and are adorned with the righteousness of Christ and these are the clothes. It is not our merits that get us to the party, but when we arrive we are given new garments to make us worthy and we must accept them when entering. I would suspect the one they missed is like those playing church but never really embrace the gospel. They are invited to the party, show up, but reject the garments given to them so maybe they somehow get in for a bit, but when found out they are thrown out of the party.

GenemZ · Sep 6, 2019

redleghunter said:
The first lesson of the Creation is that God created us out of dust.

I guess with a 21st century mindset we could say Adam and Eve were created against their will.

Not to nit pick... But, unless we see the specific meaning of the Hebrew words it leaves us open for all sorts of speculations that waste time.

God did not create the bodies. Its our souls He created (bara) - Created out from nothing (Genesis 1:27). The body was molded and formed (jatsar) out from what had been created already.

What came out from the dust (elements of the earth)? It does not say the Lord created that body. It says He 'molded and formed' the body from the elements of the earth. The Hebrew does not say the body was created. It says the soul that was created in His image. God is invisible. And in His image our souls were created. The souls came first, then the body.

Its our immaterial souls that He created in His image.

The physical bodies are a means for giving expression for our immaterial souls. To be expressed in the created material world.

The Hebrew is very specific about different ways of bringing things into existence.

Nit Pick mode, off...

grace and peace....

"For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

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